FBI considering hate crime charges against Zimmerman #1

[stmarysmead]

I have to say I did find page 26 of the docs to be possibly revealing? This was Zimmerman's 5th call about suspicious black males in his neighborhood. The report said all his previous suspicious persons calls identified black males as the subjects.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

Iposted this response to that page here :


Someone from the SPD, Serino?, is shown twice to make statements about GZ having called 911, 4 times to report suspicious persons, who were all “black males.” Didn’t we hear at first that GZ had called 911 something like 40 times? yet the person picks out just 4 incidents, where the person was black? The dates listed by that person were 2 dates in Aug. 2011, one date in Oct. 2011, and one in Feb. 2012.

They then show the complex Newsletters from a few different months. There is a write up in the Sept. 2011 newsletter about the increase in break-in’s, and says that there were 3 break-in’s in the previous month. Wouldn’t that be in August, when GZ called in two times? Some people from the SPD were invited to come and speak at a meeting in late Sept., invited by GZ. There were about 25 people who attended that meeting. The police officer went back and forth with emails as to that meeting with GZ. He was obviously in contact with the SPD. He inquired about any arrest from one of the incidents. The officer said that they had fingerprint info, but couldn’t locate the perp.

Other’s in that community had identified some of the suspicious people as young black males. Didn’t a black female tell a reported that the 800 lb elephant in the room was that it was young black males that were the culprits?

Yet George Zimmerman was reported to the FBI as being a racist.

 

[stmarysmead]

This should come out at trial. The frequency of crime. The races of the suspects and perpetrators. The Defense may well do a racial analysis of crime in Sanford over the past year or two...if "profiling" is charged and a man's life is to be taken away and spent in prison. Let's look at ALL of the truth.

If crime statistics show GZ had little reason to be suspicious of a young Black male committing crime in that complex...then that will be a point for the prosecution. But if not, GZ acted in a reasonable manner.

Truth matters.

 

[sleonardelli]

I don't necessarily think GZ is hard core racist like my older brother and father but I do think he sees race in deciding who's "suspicious".

 

[stmarysmead]

I don't necessarily think GZ is hard core racist like my older brother and father but I do think he sees race in deciding who's "suspicious".

That will depend on whether statistics show he had good reason to be suspicious. Again, if old blonde White Women are committing the majority of crimes in my neighborhood, people have good reason to be suspicious of me...or anyone in my demographic. You CANNOT in fairness separate the reality of crime statistics from GZ's perception of whom to "watch." That des not make him a racist...only a REALIST.

Statistics will answer that question.

 

[suzihawk]

By the way, Sanford has a poor safety record for crimes...3 out of a possible 100. One is more likely to be a crime victim here than generally in the State of Fla. This spaks to me of the weariness of Sanford residents of all races trying to live unaccosted by crime. IMO this gives GZ even more reason to be out there WATCHING...trying to protect his multi-racial neighbors. He was not some White guy gunning for non-whites in a white gated community. He is a mixed race volunteer in a community that is plaqued by crime.

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/fl/sanford/crime/

Zimmerman didn't limit himself to just WATCHING. Therein lies the problem. IMO

 

[stmarysmead]

Here is a good article about what was happening in the neighborhood.

George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting

.....Though civil rights demonstrators have argued Zimmerman should not have prejudged Martin, one black neighbor of the Zimmermans said recent history should be taken into account.

"Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK?" the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. "There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."...snipped

A NEIGHBORHOOD IN FEAR

By the summer of 2011, Twin Lakes was experiencing a rash of burglaries and break-ins. Previously a family-friendly, first-time homeowner community, it was devastated by the recession that hit the Florida housing market, and transient renters began to occupy some of the 263 town houses in the complex. Vandalism and occasional drug activity were reported, and home values plunged. One resident who bought his home in 2006 for $250,000 said it was worth $80,000 today.

At least eight burglaries were reported within Twin Lakes in the 14 months prior to the Trayvon Martin shooting, according to the Sanford Police Department. Yet in a series of interviews, Twin Lakes residents said dozens of reports of attempted break-ins and would-be burglars casing homes had created an atmosphere of growing fear in the neighborhood.

In several of the incidents, witnesses identified the suspects to police as young black men. Twin Lakes is about 50 percent white, with an African-American and Hispanic population of about 20 percent each, roughly similar to the surrounding city of Sanford, according to U.S. Census data.

One morning in July 2011, a black teenager walked up to Zimmerman's front porch and stole a bicycle, neighbors told Reuters. A police report was taken, though the bicycle was not recovered.

<modsnip>

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

 

[stmarysmead]

There is no evidence that he did anything but Watch...until he was under attack.

 

[Alecto]

Zimmerman didn't limit himself to just WATCHING. Therein lies the problem. IMO

Zimmerman certainly got out of his truck to follow TM at one point but even when he did that there is no indication his intent was anything other then to watch. When GZ got of his vehicle there was probably a good deal more then 1oo feet separating them (look at the map and call timeline). GZ thought TM was running and TM had a really big head start and was likely a much faster runner. GZ never had a realistic chance of catching TM and it's just been unsubstantiated speculation that GZ even wanted to catch TM.

Plus, the location of the fight means it actually had to be TM confronting GZ. GZ's injuries and TM's lack of injuries not only support GZ's version of events they also identify GZ as the person screaming for help which is also validated by an eyewitness as well. GZ not only didn't commit a hate crime, it appears he didn't commit any crime at all.

 

[stmarysmead]

Somehow, part of my new post became part of the old. I have trouble with this Ipadand posting.

But the answer to the charge of "profiling"...is in this article posted above. The story of that condo area under seige should be the reply to every charge that GZ had no "right" to watch TM...or that this was all about race. It was only about race...because the neighbors felt under seige from crime from young Black youth. We have been sensitized by PC not to "speak" of this....but NOW that it is criminalized "to profile"....it WILL be spoken of. We will have to hurt some feelings to prevent injustice.

GZ had good reason to watch TM. TM was "victimized" by the young men who created the crime in that area. Even if you make it a crime, you cannot keep people from seeing the REALITY of who is committing crimes. And all those who cry "profiling" on TV should have to answer....WHY IS IS NOT JUST A COMMON SENSE REACTION!?

From the article above:
.....Though civil rights demonstrators have argued Zimmerman should not have prejudged Martin, one black neighbor of the Zimmermans said recent history should be taken into account.

"Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK?" the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. "There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."...snipped

TM had real and valid reasons for fearing Black teens wandering in that condo area. If we are going to criminalize "profiling" and take a man's life away in jail...then no one can demand by virtue of political correctness that we cannot discuss the crime wave and STATISTICS n that neighborhood.

It is more comfortable to debate if GZ beat himself up while shooting TM....but this is the heart of the case. "Profiling" is one of the most serious charges. Here is the REASON for the "profiling." And it has to do with reality, not hate.

 

[stmarysmead]

I hope GZ lawyers tell any jury that the HATE CRIME in this case...was instead... "HATING CRIME"

I hope this article is read into evidence along with every last crime stat from Sanford. I hope prior residents who were victimized by these crimes are called to relate their fear.

Then we can talk about the CRIME of TM being watched for a few minutes.

 

[suzihawk]

So I think we can agree that he was profiled and that is step 1 in the FBI charges,imo. They have to determine how he was 'watched and profiled" because the boy ended up dead. They may determine it was not a hate crime- I don't know-but they have got to investigate it and I don't understand the outrage at all. It's an investigation and I would be peeved if my son died under similar circumstances and FBI did not investigate.

I have 2 questions for everyone.

Do you think, and please be honest, if you had a 28 yo son (and I do) would you advise him to do everything that George did that night? I do not even mean with hindsight and knowing what we know, I mean in general would you tell your son to do exactly what George did?
All circumstances identical.


My next question is do you think in your heart of hearts that Trayvon just attacked George Zimmerman for no reason at all-out of the blue-completely unprovoked? Just saw George and started beating on him?

1. No. Being honest. I know from being married to a police officer I would have advised GZ to stay in his car. Once it's called in it is a police matter and you jeopardize the safety of the police officer and innocent people by following someone who you believe is dangerous enough to call LE.

2. I do not think TM just attacked GZ. Honestly I think GZ was thinking this kid is up to no good and TM was thinking this guy is up to no good and it went out of control from there. I don't think GZ ever intended to kill TM, I think he wanted to detain TM until LE arrived and TM would have none of it.

JMO

I agree with your answers, LambChop - with one small, but important, exception or clarification to what I've bolded above.

I don't think Zimmerman went out that evening with the intention to kill anyone. I believe that once Zimmerman confronted Trayvon and was getting his butt kicked in his effort to detain him, he FULLY intended to kill him. He wasn't going to allow another a$$hole to get away - not this time.

 

[stmarysmead]

Is that a crime? To save your own life? To save yourself when you are "having your butt kicked?" Do you think a man being beaten, feeling the pain of being beaten HAS AS HIS FIRST THOUGHT...not to let his attacker "get away?"

I think his thought is to make the beating stop. Make the pain stop.

Why is the worst possible light always thrown on GZ? Because that is the only way to justify the charges. In a neighborhood where good people of all races were plaqued by crime from Black teens...GZ sees a Black teen he does not recognize in the neighborhood. Read the Stories! Black teens walking into a house, terrifying a woman and her Baby. Listen to the AA neighbor: Black teen crime is the Elephant in the living room.

But GZ may have the rest of his life taken away because he was watching a stranger to his "beseiged" neighborhood until the police came. "He got out of the car!" I APPLAUD HIM for caring that much.

Then , he is being beaten and he should just LET IT HAPPEN...that would have been "justice for Trayvon" to allow his head to be continually smashed into the concrete.

Did TM have a right to do that because he was annoyed?

TM wanted the watching to stop so he beat GZ. The injuries show that.

GZ wanted the beating to stop...pain will do that to you.

That is the genesis of this tragedy.

 

[suzihawk]

Is that a crime? To save your own life? To save yourself when you are "having your butt kicked?" Do you think a man being beaten, feeling the pain of being beaten HAS AS HIS FIRST THOUGHT...not to let his attacker "get away?"

I think his thought is to make the beating stop. Make the pain stop.

Why is the worst possible light always thrown on GZ? Because that is the only way to justify the charges. In a neighborhood where good people of all races were plaqued by crime from Black teens...GZ sees a Black teen he does not recognize in the neighborhood. Read the Stories! Black teens walking into a house, terrifying a woman and her Baby. Listen to the AA neighbor: Black teen crime is the Elephant in the living room.

But GZ may have the rest of his life taken away because he was watching a stranger to his "beseiged" neighborhood until the police came. "He got out of the car!" I APPLAUD HIM for caring that much.

Then , he is being beaten and he should just LET IT HAPPEN...that would have been "justice for Trayvon" to allow his head to be continually smashed into the concrete.

Did TM have a right to do that because he was annoyed?

GZ wanted the beating to stop...pain will do that to you.

It is if he initiated the fight - and I believe he did. One can't go around initiating fights and then shoot their opponent because they're losing the fight they, themself, started. If that's the law, then the world is in a lot of trouble, IMO.

Since this is getting far afield of the topic at hand, I'll just leave it at that.

 

[stmarysmead]

Is there evidence that he initiated the fight? There are no witnesses. The GF cannot say one way or the other. Since it is just speculation and GZ is PRESUMED INNOCENT by our constitution...we may think that but he MUST be found innocent. You cannot PRESUME without proof and send a man to jail for life.

The crime stats and events in that neighborhood make the profiling charge totally inappropriate.

Time to start asking for Justice For GZ. One can still grieve the tragedy of TM's passing. But it takes REAL evidence not emotion to scream MURDER. Every tragedy is not a MURDER.

That is if our courts are still about justice.

 

[AJ Noiter]

<snip for brevity>
I have 2 questions for everyone.

Do you think, and please be honest, if you had a 28 yo son (and I do) would you advise him to do everything that George did that night? I do not even mean with hindsight and knowing what we know, I mean in general would you tell your son to do exactly what George did?
All circumstances identical.


My next question is do you think in your heart of hearts that Trayvon just attacked George Zimmerman for no reason at all-out of the blue-completely unprovoked? Just saw George and started beating on him?

I'm going to answer your questions as someone who is around the age of Mr. Zimmerman as what I feel I would do is what I would teach my children.

1) I'm not sure where I would end my opinion but I think it would come down to those who oppose vs support gun laws if we look at the whole situation. Personally, I don't care if you punch me first or I punch you first (which probably wouldn't happen as I'm a very laid back person), if I get to the point to where I feel my life might be in danger I will use any means necessary to defend myself - and I support anyone who does use whatever force necessary to save their own life.

With the "ending" out of the way, ignoring it and focusing on everything else my initial thought is that I would probably do everything just as Mr. Zimmerman did, but given that I don't live in a community that has much of a crime rate (my neighborhood specifically) I can't say exactly what I would do. I'm not in the military anymore but if I were the obvious answer is "I would've done what he did and more" because I would've lived on base and anyone suspicious is an immediate danger, no matter the circumstances or who they are. By "and more" I mean, I would've done a thorough search for the suspicious person, which I do not believe Mr. Zimmerman did do.

2) With the hostility that teenagers have these days to -everyone- I wouldn't doubt it. I still get a creeped out feeling when I recall a show, I believe on NatGeo, that showed American teachers having to teach behind bullet proof glass because of the way kids act these days - it's ridiculous. I know that's an extreme, but even in places like where I'm at the drug usage is getting younger and younger along with violent acts towards teachers and others.

On Mr. Martin specifically, I do not have a very good idea of Mr. Martin to be able to say specifically about him. I would like to think that he was not easily provoked, but thus far I haven't seen anything to indicate that. I have not been one to talk about his past, his drug usage or how he was in a supposed "fight club" because I didn't see anything that showed he was a violent person (he was the "ref" in the video, not a participant). If you were to remove everything, and only give me the details from his facebook/twitter/etc and not tell me anything about this case I would probably estimate that he was good kid that has done some silly things in his life, but who hasn't.

 

[stmarysmead]

Pleae explain how the government can bring Hate Crime charges against GZ...if he had a statistical reason in the crime data for his community to "watch" TM. This is a key component to the hate charge: it must be RACE alone.

In the Crump sponsered visits that the Family is making, they say that Trayvon was targeted because he was "diferent." Statistics say he was watched because he was"similar" not differnt...from the criminals who were targeting that multi-racial area.

It is fantasy to ignore the real problems in that community and pretend this was just about race. If that Condo area had a Black Wach captain, he would probably have watched an unknown Black teen too...because THAT was the "elephant in the living room" in that neighborhood...as the AA resident in the Reuters article stated.

 

[wishuwerehere]

Pleae explain how the government can bring Hate Crime charges against GZ...if he had a statistical reason in the crime data for his community to "watch" TM. This is a key component to the hate charge: it must be RACE alone.

In the Crump sponsered visits that the Family is making, they say that Trayvon was targeted because he was "diferent." Statistics say he was watched because he was"similar" not differnt...from the criminals who were targeting that multi-racial area.

It is fantasy to ignore the real problems in that community and pretend this was just about race. If that Condo area had a Black Wach captain, he would probably have watched an unknown Black teen too...because THAT was the "elephant in the living room" in that neighborhood...as the AA resident in the Reuters article stated.

Well, there’s the rub, Zimmerman didn’t just “watch” Trayvon. He followed him and confronted him with his presence. Check out the girlfriend’s testimony.

Also Zimmerman profiled Trayvon for being black and “suspicious.” (As if being black is suspicious = hate/discrimination). As a neighborhood watchman he was only supposed to observe and report. He did much more than that. He was not acting in good faith. His own paranoia got the best of him and it killed Trayvon.

jmo

 

[stmarysmead]

Well, there&#8217;s the rub, Zimmerman didn&#8217;t just &#8220;watch&#8221; Trayvon. He followed him and confronted him with his presence. Check out the girlfriend&#8217;s testimony.

Also Zimmerman profiled Trayvon for being black and &#8220;suspicious.&#8221; (As if being black is suspicious = hate/discrimination). As a neighborhood watchman he was only supposed to observe and report. He did much more than that. He was not acting in good faith. His own paranoia got the best of him and it killed Trayvon.

jmo

First, there is no evidence that he "confronted" him. The GF never said that. In fact she says that TM spoke first. She has no testimony about the fight. Second, unless you have proof that only RACE and not the crime statistics in that condo area were on GZ's mind...then "watch" is the appropriate word. "Profiling" assumes that ONLY RACE MATTERED. Unless you have a new definition of "profiling." Please share. And if the WAtch captain was Black and Watched Black teens because they were causing most of the crime problems...is THAT "profiling?" Someone please answer that

Secondly, the 911 tape where GZ is made to look like HE first mentioned race is bogus. An NBC producer losst is job over that Hoax. So that is untrue.

Another example of the fruit of the poisoned tree of media bias!

 

[stmarysmead]

Will soomeone who is claiming "profiling" please post the definition. And then explain how it fits this situation?

 

[wishuwerehere]

First, there is no evidence that he "confronted" him. The GF never said that. In fact she says that TM spoke first. She has no testimony about the fight. Second, unless you have proof that only RACE and not the crime statistics in that condo area were on GZ's mind...then "watch" is the appropriate word. "Profiling" assumes that ONLY RACE MATTERED. Unless you have a new definition of "profiling." Please share. And if the WAtch captain was Black and Watched Black teens because they were causing most of the crime problems...is THAT "profiling?" Someone please answer that

Secondly, the 911 tape where GZ is made to look like HE first mentioned race is bogus. An NBC producer losst is job over that Hoax. So that is untrue.

Another example of the fruit of the poisoned tree of media bias!

BBM - Untrue. Zimmerman confronted Trayvon with his presence, which I stated in my previous post. This is substantiated by the girlfriend's testimony. People have been known to confront/intimidate others without saying a word. KWIM?

And Zimmerman does state that Trayvon is black and in his late teens on the 911 tape. I believe Zimmerman wanted to intimidate Trayvon based on him being black and young. Travyon stood his ground and Zimmerman killed him for it.

It is what it is. Can it be proven in a court of law? Well, if they use Zimmerman's past calls to the police over the years, they may have a tighter case. I'm not sure if that will be let in. But those calls definitely paint a picture of Zimmerman, and it's not pretty.

jmo