FL- 12 Story Condo Partial Building Collapse, many still unaccounted for, Miami, 24 June 2021 #2

[sorrell skye]

New Video Of First Responders On The Pile Of The Collapsed Condo In Surfside

My heart breaks.

 

[sorrell skye]

duplicate post.

 

[PayrollNerd]

One problem that the article noted is that some will face having a mortgage on a property that no longer exists. Most will have insurance for the interior of their units, but it might not cover a mortgage. The insurance on the building probably won’t cover all of the owners adequately.

Typically, when the tax return for the year is filed, there is an area where in Turbo Tax, and I'm sure on other tax software, it covers catastrophic loss. Hopefully that will be to the victims benefit, both those that survived and those that perished. If someone purchased a condo in 2021 and immediately lost it, I can't imagine the insurance would cover the entire cost. Especially not with real estate prices at the moment.

 

[SouthAussie]

they're actually Canadian ...or at least she is

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/flor...ZpqXk_Io5_cj5Xm_FwtPbYSXdqbTthDecoN2ePVLpg48U

Thanks.

Yes, that previous article called them Australians, but I had posted an article much earlier - when we knew they were missing - where our DFAT said that they were both citizens of other (unnamed) countries - but had been residents in Australia and have family in Australia - and consequently DFAT were monitoring the situation and aiding the family.

 

[al66pine]

Fed. Personal Inc Tax. Itemized Deduction?

Typically, when the tax return for the year is filed, there is an area where in Turbo Tax, and I'm sure on other tax software, it covers catastrophic loss. Hopefully that will be to the victims benefit, both those that survived and those that perished....

@PayrollNerd sbm bbm Ah, yes, the individual income tax angle. Thx for your post.

Did your post refer to this below or another facet of fed inc taxes?
Form 1040. Schedule A. Itemized Losses. line 15 .
"15 Casualty and theft loss(es) from a federally declared disaster (other than net qualified disaster losses). Attach Form 4684 and enter the amount from line 18 of that form. See instructions . . . ." bbm
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040sa.pdf

And from IRS Instructions for Form 4684:
"Losses You Can Deduct For tax years 2018 through 2025, if you are an individual, losses of personal-use property from fire, storm, shipwreck, or other casualty, or theft are deductible only if the loss is attributable to a federally declared disaster (federal casualty loss). See Pub. 547 for more information." bbm
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i4684.pdf

Did President Biden declare this bldg collapse a disaster, specifically the type of disaster which would allow this deduction?
Florida Surfside Building Collapse..3560-EM-FL
3560

I've skimmed only a few pages of ^Instructions for Form 4684 and FEMA.gov pages re Surfside, so am mos' def' not saying these losses would/would not qualify as Schedule A deductions for these condo unit owners. my2ct.

@PayrollNerd Thanks for raising this issue. Possible that it could cushion some of the financial blows for some condo unit owners.

 

[MimosaMornings]

Condo Buildings Are at Risk. So Is All Real Estate.

“After most of a condominium tower in Surfside, Florida, collapsed last week, the second-guessing began almost immediately. Some residents accused the building’s condominium association of acting too slowly to address known structural flaws identified in a 2018 engineering report. Recent news stories have emphasized dissension among the owners. As someone who studies condos—their history, architecture, politics, and social dynamics, in Florida and all over the United States—I, too, have been wondering whether the building’s divided ownership contributed to the June 24 catastrophe, which killed at least 18 people and left more than 140 missing. Could a single landlord have responded better to engineers’ and occupants’ concerns than an association of 136 homeowners?“

 

[SouthAussie]

I can't even begin to imagine the quandry the individual condo owners were in.

To be assessed $80,000 for repairs (over 5 years that is $1,334 p/mo) or $200,000 for repairs (over 5 years that is $3,334 p/mo) is a lot of additional money for many people to come up with. Some of them probably fought it.

And, so, too many of them paid with their lives.

 

[PayrollNerd]

Fed. Personal Inc Tax. Itemized Deduction?
@PayrollNerd sbm bbm Ah, yes, the individual income tax angle. Thx for your post.

Is this what your post referred to, or another facet of fed inc taxes?
Form 1040. Schedule A. Itemized Losses. line 15 .
"15 Casualty and theft loss(es) from a federally declared disaster (other than net qualified disaster losses). Attach Form 4684 and enter the amount from line 18 of that form. See instructions . . . ." bbm
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040sa.pdf

And from IRS Instructions for Form 4684:
"Losses You Can Deduct For tax years 2018 through 2025, if you are an individual, losses of personal-use property from fire, storm, shipwreck, or other casualty, or theft are deductible only if the loss is attributable to a federally declared disaster (federal casualty loss). See Pub. 547 for more information." bbm
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i4684.pdf

Did President Biden declare this bldg collapse a disaster, specifically the type of disaster which would allow this deduction?
Florida Surfside Building Collapse..3560-EM-FL
3560

I've skimmed only a few pages of ^Instructions for Form 4684 and FEMA.gov pages re Surfside, so am mos' def' not saying these losses would/would not qualify as Schedule A deductions for these condo unit owners. my2ct.

@PayrollNerd Thanks for raising this issue. Possible that it could cushion some of the financial blows for some condo unit owners.

There’s 2 issues here. One is federal disasters and one is personal catastrophic loss.

The IRS rewrites the Form 1040 instructions each year based on what is declared a federal disaster area. The ability to itemize deductions is based on many factors but it will definitely be addressed on the 1040. When multiple hurricanes go thru the same area, I’ve see them listed and I had to choose which one I was affected by.

In addition, any catastrophic loss, such as a fire resulting in the loss of your home, is addressed when filing your personal tax return. These condo owners will have an option, in some form or fashion, to address their loss when filing their Form 1040. These were not your typical inexpensive condos, meaning I’d venture to guess most owners have a CPA doing their taxes anyway. I just hope they receive some benefit to help them. For example, I read where survivors were given $10,000 for housing and $2,000 for funeral costs. I suspect that will be tax free, hopefully.

 

[al66pine]

.... When multiple hurricanes go thru the same area, I’ve see them listed and I had to choose which one I was affected by....

sbm bbm Holy cow. I'm sorry to hear that.

Choose which hurricane affected you???
Are you sure you do not want to move elsewhere???

 

[PayrollNerd]

Oh and let me add a note on the tax topic. Don’t confuse reportable income and taxable income. The $10,000 and $2,000 will be reportable and will likely be added to your ordinary income. It may not be taxed tho.

Example, you earned $40,000 from your job plus the $12,000 detailed above for a total $52,000. Your tax amount is likely to be based only on the $40,000 of ordinary income.

JMO from doing tax returns and payroll over the years. I’m not a CPA or tax attorney.

 

[PayrollNerd]

sbm bbm Holy cow. I'm sorry to hear that.

Choose which hurricane affected you???
Are you sure you do not want to move elsewhere???

Nope, I’m staying until they cart me off in a pine box! My friends will drag my butt outta here on a moments notice if need be. They’ve all texted, called and one even went to Lido beach today and filmed the waves before it got bad.

I think they listed the federal disasters separately due to financial tracking at a much higher level.

 

[MimosaMornings]

There’s 2 issues here. One is federal disasters and one is personal catastrophic loss.

The IRS rewrites the Form 1040 instructions each year based on what is declared a federal disaster area. The ability to itemize deductions is based on many factors but it will definitely be addressed on the 1040. When multiple hurricanes go thru the same area, I’ve see them listed and I had to choose which one I was affected by.

In addition, any catastrophic loss, such as a fire resulting in the loss of your home, is addressed when filing your personal tax return. These condo owners will have an option, in some form or fashion, to address their loss when filing their Form 1040. These were not your typical inexpensive condos, meaning I’d venture to guess most owners have a CPA doing their taxes anyway. I just hope they receive some benefit to help them. For example, I read where survivors were given $10,000 for housing and $2,000 for funeral costs. I suspect that will be tax free, hopefully.

I’m familiar with the pick the named storm option.
Then there’s the expensive mandatory windstorm insurance.

$2,000 for funeral costs? That wouldn’t cover basic cremation. I hope it’s tax free.

 

[ilovewings]

I can't even begin to imagine the quandry the individual condo owners were in.

To be assessed $80,000 for repairs (over 5 years that is $1,334 p/mo) or $200,000 for repairs (over 5 years that is $3,334 p/mo) is a lot of additional money for many people to come up with. Some of them probably fought it.

And, so, too many of them paid with their lives.

I don't want to see these people being blamed for their own deaths ( not suggesting you are doing that), but others will. I believe they did not have the information that the building was in dire straits- that it was dangerous and potentially life-threatening. Sure they were told that there were some serious problems and that repairs were needed but I don't believe they were told the true extent of the damage to the building and that the threat to the integrity of the high rise was imminent.

 

[SouthAussie]

I don't think this has been mentioned here before ... (paraphrasing)

Last week (Thursday) the town of Surfside issued a new ordinance. It requires that all buildings that are over 3 stories high start their recertification process at 30 years instead of 40 years.

As part of that 30 year inspection a structural engineering report will need to be produced (as normal) as well as a geotechnical engineer performing analysis of the foundation and of the subsurface soils (which I think is new).

Former Surfside Building Official Faces Scrutiny, Residents’ Ire After Condo Collapse

 

[SouthAussie]

I don't want to see these people being blamed for their own deaths ( not suggesting you are doing that), but others will. I believe they did not have the information that the building was in dire straits- that it was dangerous and potentially life-threatening. Sure they were told that there were some serious problems and that repairs were needed but I don't believe they were told the true extent of the damage to the building and that the threat to the integrity of the high rise was imminent.

I don't think there is any concern about them being blamed. More likely some blame is going to shift to the town. imo

If you can access this article, there is heavy scrutiny of the town building inspector (who worked for CAPS Government Inc) who told the town manager “He mentioned that he’d been at the meeting, and according to him everything was fine” after the alarming 2018 engineering report.

There is quite a bit to scrutinise about the town building inspector. Including the collapse of a grandstand that he was reviewing for planned demolition - killing two people.

Former Surfside Building Official Faces Scrutiny, Residents’ Ire After Condo Collapse

 

[ilovewings]

Rosendo Prieto, ex-Surfside building official who signed off on condo, placed on leave

I cannot read the rest of the article at WSJ because it is behind a paywall- this article goes into some detail about Mr. Prietro. I believe in 2018 he said Surfside was in "good shape".

 

[bears10]

I’m familiar with the pick the named storm option.
Then there’s the expensive mandatory windstorm insurance.

$2,000 for funeral costs? That wouldn’t cover basic cremation. I hope it’s tax free.

To me it sounds like an advance of up to $10k, plus $2k for funeral costs if need be. But it’s early and I might be misinterpreting.

—

The judge instructed the receiver to make arrangements immediately to authorize payments to those directly affected by the building collapse. He instructed the receiver to provide payments up to $10,000 to families of the missing or deceased or to those residents who need housing assistance. And he said $2,000 payments should be made available to families dealing with end-of-life (funeral) costs. Those payments would be an advance on the total recovery that will be available to all parties directly affected by the collapse.

Florida Judge Orders Surfside Condo Association Board Into Receivership

 

[SouthAussie]

To me it sounds like an advance of up to $10k, plus $2k for funeral costs if need be. But it’s early and I might be misinterpreting.

—

The judge instructed the receiver to make arrangements immediately to authorize payments to those directly affected by the building collapse. He instructed the receiver to provide payments up to $10,000 to families of the missing or deceased or to those residents who need housing assistance. And he said $2,000 payments should be made available to families dealing with end-of-life (funeral) costs. Those payments would be an advance on the total recovery that will be available to all parties directly affected by the collapse.

Florida Judge Orders Surfside Condo Association Board Into Receivership

From your linked article .. I think this (below) sounds like better financial news. But it leads me to a question. Would there be a mortgage on that building (as a whole building ... not talking about the owners individual mortgages)? Or would the building mortgage have been paid off very early in the piece by all the condos being sold to various owners? I am not sure how that works.


A lawyer for the condo association told the judge the building's insurance coverage totals $48 million. The judge said the condo's land will also be an asset, which he estimates will add between $30 million and $50 million to the fund.

The judge took a firm tone with attorneys, telling them they should consider their role in the case "a public service" and that he wanted to "avoid as much litigation and contention as possible."
He said he wants the case wrapped up within 12 months.

 

[Hope32]

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article252362358.html
Mods delete if needed, but a list of those that have been recovered:
- Maricoy Obias-Bonnefoy 69 Unit 1001
-Claudio Bonnefoy Bachelet, 85 Unit 1001
-Christina Beatriz Elvira Oliwkowicz 74 (7th floor by elevators)
-Leon Oliwkowicz 80 (7th floor by elevators)
-Ana Ortiz 46 (7th floor) [Nancy Levin, Jay Kleinman missing]
- Luis Andres Bermudez (7th floor)
-Frankie Kleinman 55 (7th floor)
-Gonzalo Torre 81 (9th floor end unit)
- Ingrid Ainsworth 66 (Not known)
-Tzvi Ainsworth 68 (Not Known
-Michael David Altman 50 Unit 1101
-Graciela Cattarossi 48 Unit 501 (Gino, Garciela (mother), and Andrea missing)
-Stella Cattarossi 7 Unit 501
-Magaly Elena Delgado 80 (9th floor)
-Bonnie Epstein 56 (9th Floor North End Unit)
-David Epstein 58 (9th Floor North End Unit)
-Stacie Fang 54 (10th Floor)
-Andreas Giannitsopoulos 21 Unit 801
- Manuel LaFont 54 Unit 801
- Emma Guara 4 (8th Floor)
-Lucia Guara 10 (8th Floor)
-Marcus Joseph Guara 52 (8th Floor)
- Anaely Rodriguez 42 (8th floor)(mother of Guara's)
-Antonio Lozano 83 (9th floor)
-Gladys Lozano 79 (9th Floor)
-Hilda Noriega 92 (6th floor)

Additional 3 People Identified (7 still not released)

- Nancy Levin, 76 (7th floor)
- Jay Kleinman, 52 (7th floor)
- Francis R. Fernandez Plasencia 67 Unit 411

 

[PayrollNerd]

To me it sounds like an advance of up to $10k, plus $2k for funeral costs if need be. But it’s early and I might be misinterpreting.

—

The judge instructed the receiver to make arrangements immediately to authorize payments to those directly affected by the building collapse. He instructed the receiver to provide payments up to $10,000 to families of the missing or deceased or to those residents who need housing assistance. And he said $2,000 payments should be made available to families dealing with end-of-life (funeral) costs. Those payments would be an advance on the total recovery that will be available to all parties directly affected by the collapse.

Florida Judge Orders Surfside Condo Association Board Into Receivership

Yes, I agree they are an advance on a settlement. Settlement monies have different tax rules depending on how the legal documents read. So many things come in to play - why the monies are needed - what precipitated the entire situation. In this case the catastrophic failure of the structure. There may be different buckets of money just like we see in other types of lawsuits. Loss of dwelling, loss of life, loss of income to raise a surviving child, pain and suffering, etc. Each bucket has its own rules and the tax implications can be different. I strongly suspect this advance will be tax free simply because there is such a clear and direct cause and effect. Again, definitely reportable but likely tax free.