FL - 17 killed in Stoneman Douglas H.S. shooting, Parkland, 14 Feb 2018 #2 *Arrest*

[Gardenista]

What a profoundly sick and disturbing study! I had heard about a similar one conducted with monkeys, and I found that appalling, but if they actually did the same on human infants that is beyond the pale! And why was that not criminal abuse and neglect?

It would have been a retrospective study

 

[Doghairrules]

Thank you for sharing your expertise & stories, mpnola.

I think what was being debated/ discussed is when or if we need to revisit **human rights** when a documented and formally investigated hostile, mentally deranged person poses a threat to others in society & to himself. Is there an appropriate and sensible time when a person can have some of those rights to freely roam amongst the general population and bear Arms taken away? And if so, what does that process look like & where do they go?

And I would add, what services are they getting while they are there and what follow up is provided?

I know these things cost money, but so do all these funerals, trials, etc. after the fact.

It seems that a relatively small percentage of people with serious mental illness are dangerous. We have a lot of case studies now. Why can’t we determine and agree on red flags and then provide intensive support (whatever that looks like) with long term follow up to that small percentage?

Just jumping off your post, Taste of Honey. And MOO.

 

[jjenny]

As someone who was adopted soon after birth (my parents got physical custody of me at several months) I have to say it is horrible to not be told that you are adopted from the time you are very little. I was.
To think that not telling an adoptee that are adopted until they are in their teens is horrifying.
I cannot begin to think what the fallout would have been. Since the boys were already causing lots of trouble in the home, were they told as a form of "my own blood kids wouldn't act like this" form of shaming?
I know other people my age who were adopted who were regular teens with typical acting out. Some of their parents told them that they would "give them back to the state" or "I wish we had chosen another child to adopt" etc. :tantrum:
Love shouldn't keep secrets.
jmho

There are different philosophies on that in different countries. In US it is generally believed adopted children should be told early on. In some countries it is believed they should be never told.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

I don't mean anyone would "will" their children to someone, but rather have a plan as you described.

I don't know why I'm not articulating my question properly on the board, but I guess I'm not.

Don't worry about it - it was the way I phrased my reply.

What I was trying to say is that (in the UK at least) parents cannot determine who will look after their children after their own deaths. What they can do is make their wishes known and that the authorities will take those wishes into account when deciding the children's future. The preference is to place children with other family members if those family members are suitable, or otherwise with family friends who are already known to the children, but it's not a foregone conclusion that either family or friends will eventually be allowed to take the kids in if social services aren't absolutely convinced that they are suitable to do so.

 

[Gardenista]

Agree, you are fortunate to have been spared.
Yes, Nikolas Cruz, this case. I don’t have a clue as to what their inheritance arrangement was. Since the mother died quickly and unexpectedly, I don’t see how she could have reviewed the details with them.

Not sure, but clearly she was thinking about it since the reason she didn't go to a doctor for her flu was because she didn't want to reduce their inheritance. I'm wondering if she had a trust set up and they didn't get anything until a certain age.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

There are different philosophies on that in different countries. In US it is generally believed adopted children should be told early on. In some countries it is believed they should be never told.

I believe the thinking within countries has also changed over the decades. In the UK right up to the 1970s the general practice was for children not to be told, though many eventually worked out the truth when they grew up looking nothing like anyone in their adoptive family, discovered they had an incompatible blood group to those of their apparent parents, or developed a hereditary disease that was not present in their adoptive family.

 

[Doghairrules]

Without a will, her kids would be her beneficiaries equally. I would think she had a will-- she lost her husband unexpectedly, had a home and probably had his retirement.

But this is also a woman who has been described as extremely frugal and, according to the neighbor, refused to go to the doctor when she had the flu. I’m not sure if she would spend money on estate planning.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Not sure, but clearly she was thinking about it since the reason she didn't go to a doctor for her flu was because she didn't want to reduce their inheritance. I'm wondering if she had a trust set up and they didn't get anything until a certain age.

There was a link upthread that stated N.C. stood to inherit $800,000 when he turned 22 yrs old. The story went on to say that it appeared via documents that this was confirmed. Can you imagine what that kind of money in the hands of a nefarious, evil person could do?

 

[Inthedetails]

Not sure, but clearly she was thinking about it since the reason she didn't go to a doctor for her flu was because she didn't want to reduce their inheritance. I'm wondering if she had a trust set up and they didn't get anything until a certain age.

There is a bit about the money in the link I posted above. The family who took him in understood that he would inherit 800,000 when he turned 22.

Info at the link: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...amily-helped-nikolas-cruz-20180217-story.html

 

[Gardenista]

There was a link upthread that stated N.C. stood to inherit $800,000 when he turned 22 yrs old. The story went on to say that it appeared via documents that this was confirmed. Can you imagine what that kind of money in the hands of a nefarious, evil person could do?

Just finished reading that--I feel so bad for the Sneads

 

[Doghairrules]

Never mind. I oversnipped!

 

[Doghairrules]

From this link:

“According to the report, investigators also tried to speak to a school police officer, who declined to cooperate.”

Why wouldn’t the school police officer cooperate?

Florida Agency Investigated Nikolas Cruz After Violent Social Media Posts https://nyti.ms/2BzMwFE

 

[mo_mom]

Do we know if there was even a will? She might have died intestate.

Or if there was a will was it going through probate? (Does the US have probate?)

I have friends and family members where they cannot access inheritance until certain milestones - graduating college, age of 30 or 60 (at the time, the guy was in his 20s!). Also, doled out as an allowance by a trustee not related to them, where they stuck to the rule book. Basics may have been covered, but only extreme circumstances like medical issue could get them funds outside allowance.

Also, based on his behavior to family, I could see her writing him out or strictly limiting him.

Short version: Even if she had a will, it doesn't mean NC would have an immediate windfall at his disposal.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Betty P]

Florida shooting suspect was on school rifle team that got NRA grant


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...hooting-suspect-nra-grant-20180216-story.html

The troubled teen authorities say killed 17 people at a Florida high school excelled in an air-rifle marksmanship program supported by a grant from the National Rifle Association Foundation, part of a multimillion-dollar effort by the gun group to support youth shooting clubs and other programs.

It was a close-knit group. One of the other cadets started calling Cruz "Wolf," and the nickname stuck.

"He was a very good shot," said Aaron Diener, 20, who gave Cruz a ride to shooting competitions when they were part of the same four-member team in 2016. "He had an AR-15 he talked about, and pistols he had shot. ... He would tell us, 'Oh, it was so fun to shoot this rifle' or 'It was so fun to shoot that.' It seemed almost therapeutic to him, the way he spoke about it."

Not sure how I missed this news the other day, but WOW. So, even though the school knew Cruz had mental problems and violent tendencies, he was still allowed to participate in this program?

Perhaps in the future, these activities should be confined to off campus locations. I can't think of any reason why public schools need to subsidize marksmanship programs. Make the NRA pay for this stuff somewhere else in town instead of putting it in the schools. Everywhere.

https://thinkprogress.org/nra-cruz-donation-marksmanship-c7f68d54a25f/

 

[Doghairrules]

There is a bit about the money in the link I posted above. The family who took him in understood that he would inherit 800,000 when he turned 22.

Info at the link: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...amily-helped-nikolas-cruz-20180217-story.html

That is just heartbreaking. It sounds like this family was doing all the right things with him.

 

[keeleydoll]

RE getting kids into inpatient treatment, it so rarely happens

“That’s when Deeds discovered that "talking to somebody," getting treatment, is harder in mental health than any other kind of medicine. In the decades after the 1960s most large mental institutions were closed. It was thought that patients would get better treatment back in their communities. But adequate local facilities were never built. The number of beds available to psychiatric patients in America dropped from more than half a million to fewer than 100,000. That leaves many kids in crisis today with one option: the emergency room.

Brian Geyser: You know, every day, we have 10 to 20 kids with psychiatric problems come into our emergency department, kids who wanna kill themselves, who’ve tried to kill themselves, who've tried to kill somebody else.”

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mentally-ill-youth-in-crisis/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[enelram]

Interview with Paul Gold, Cruz’ next door neighbor.

Roger Cruz bought the five-bedroom, three-bath home in Pine Tree estates for $94,000 in 1996. By the time he died, he left a $1 million estate, including the house, which by then was worth more than $570,000, county records show.
~snip
He and his wife met when they were married to other people, then married later in life after divorces. Gold said he wasn’t sure when the boys were adopted, but they didn’t learn they were adopted until they were in their teens.

“The family had money. Lynda even had his life insurance money — but she was very, very frugal,” Gold said. Lynda Cruz stayed home with the boys, and sometimes watched Gold’s daughter, who was friends with the boys.
~snip

“He would bang his head with his hands, and often lose control over minor things, like loud sounds,” Gold recalled.
He once smashed some golf clubs into one of Gold’s vehicles. He struggled to make friends.

He would come over after school and was visibly upset about being teased, but he pretended that he really didn’t care,” Gold said.
Despite his mother’s attention, he just felt horribly unloved, and felt he had no one to turn to,’’ Gold said.
~snip

Gold and Deschamps tried to help their mother, who was in her 60s and in poor health.
~snip

More at link:
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article200754714.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is one of the best overviews of the sad life NC was living. His mother had pretty much given up on the boys and
allowed them to roam their neighborhood causing havoc for the neighbors. NC spent many, many hours playing
video games of killing, bombs, etc. His mother was frail and in poor health. No extended family support to help.
Only 4 people attended her funeral. What a sad life.

 

[CARIIS]

There is a bit about the money in the link I posted above. The family who took him in understood that he would inherit 800,000 when he turned 22.

Info at the link: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...amily-helped-nikolas-cruz-20180217-story.html

From link --one of the best pieces on this I have read so far imo

lots of nuance

“He was very naïve. He wasn’t dumb, just naïve,” James said.
He didn’t know how to cook. They had to show him how to use a microwave. He didn’t know how to do his laundry and also had to learn to pick up after himself.
He didn’t drive but bought a bicycle and rode it to work at a nearby Dollar Tree.

Go backwards

Would one expect a 8 to cook?

Would one expect a 12 yr old to drive ?

Would one expect a 5 year old to use a microwave

Would one expect a 9 to do his own laundry ?

If this is not the best diagnostic descriptor of development delay I don't know what is :

he Sneads had raised their own three boys and jokingly called the process of teaching Cruz “Adulting 101.”

From this piece it sounds like they encouraged him to see a clinician - but I think it would have been (their view) to deal with losing mom jmo

Also he wa in the "cue "
for threat assessment . Back to money . Get in line

This is the same stage Cho was at -- waiting ....

Same thing happened with Holmes the univ knew univ cop dept knew his key pass was taken he was thrown out of program

Its resources money

 

[jjenny]

That is just heartbreaking. It sounds like this family was doing all the right things with him.

If by the right thing you mean allowing him to keep his guns, including assault weapons, then I guess they did.

 

[jjenny]

From link

“He was very naïve. He wasn’t dumb, just naïve,” James said.
He didn’t know how to cook. They had to show him how to use a microwave. He didn’t know how to do his laundry and also had to learn to pick up after himself.
He didn’t drive but bought a bicycle and rode it to work at a nearby Dollar Tree.

Go backwards

Would one expect a 8 to cook?

Would one expect a 12 yr old to drive ?

Would one expect a 5 year old to use a microwave

Would one expect a 9 to do his own laundry ?

I am not sure what going backwards is going to accomplish? He was 19, not 8. One expects someone to be able to do more at 19 than at 8.