FL - 17 killed in Stoneman Douglas H.S. shooting, Parkland, 14 Feb 2018 #2 *Arrest*

[MelmothTheLost]

I don't mean financial help - I mean with older parents (late 40s for the mom, unknown for the dad), you would think that an agency would ask for plans in case the older parents passed away while the children were minors. Who would be available to take in the children if needed?

But apparently that is not a question that is asked in the USA agencies.

I don't think it would be asked in the UK either in that way. You can't just will your kids to your sister and her husband because kids are not property. What you can say is that in the event of yours and your partner's deaths your sister Tracy and her husband Darren have said they would be willing to adopt them. Social services will then investigate Tracy and Darren and go through the entire home assessment process before deciding whether the children should go to them. In effect the kids go into the adoption system with pre-nominated prospective adopters being given first dibs.

There's also a very common misconception in the UK that baptismal godparents have effectively volunteered to take the kids in if necessary but this is absolutely not the case at all.

 

[mpnola]

I find it sad (and maybe insightful) that no one went to her funeral, except the 2 kids and the neighbors who were asked for a ride! Who planned the funeral?

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[Trident]

I find it sad (and maybe insightful) that no one went to her funeral, except the 2 kids and the neighbors who were asked for a ride! Who planned the funeral?

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I don't know who planned the funeral, but, yes, it is sad. The whole thing is sad and was preventable.

From your posts and others, I've gathered funding was cut for mental health, most of the state hospitals, and other facilities, were closed and patients let loose/thrown out into the community. I've also gathered many of them land in prison where they are preyed upon (my thoughts) by the truly criminal. I've further gleaned that, unless someone is an IMMINENT threat to themselves or others, they cannot be bundles off to one of the few facilities left standing. I further glean that someone normalized on medication cannot be forced to continue said medication and can slide back to unacceptable, dangerous behaviors.

OK. There is nowhere to go, no money for somewhere to go, cannot be removed from society unless you're holding a gun to someone's head, or maybe your own, and no one can make you take your meds. In other words, each and every mentally ill person of age, if sneaking enough, can walk around town waiting to have an "episode" of whatever sort their prone to. It sounds to me as if there is no way to stop these horrific school attacks, or any others, such as kidnap, rape, murder of young women and children, just plain murder for a lot of other reasons, etc, etc, etc. Now, throw in a few drugs, and assorted other horrors, and all we can expect as a society is total chaos on a daily basis. Am I seeing the bigger picture?

I've read your posts with interest and want to thank you for sharing your expertise. You are a true professional. Thank you.

 

[Trvl4Lyfe]

So when the fbi is given a tip re: someone's desire to kill and number of guns and still does nothing seems this is why everyone else feels like they should have to carry a gun. Thus resulting in more places (schools ) wanting to allow this...

 

[jjenny]

Just as in giving birth, a parent doesn't need a plan for financial help (although in international adoption, you must prove you can financially support the child) or family supports. People are estranged for a myriad of reasons but I think it is very interesting how isolated this family was from their extended family. Why would siblings not visit each other? How could the sister-in-law have met the kids just once at a funeral? It is a bit odd.

Supposedly adoptive mother was very frugal so she saved a bunch of money. So they could presumably prove they could financially support a child. I don't think this was an international adoption, though, since nothing of the sort was reported. And the information about adoption came from friends and relatives, who would have known if it was an international adoption. My guess it was domestic.

 

[Gooddeeds]

Without a will, her kids would be her beneficiaries equally. I would think she had a will-- she lost her husband unexpectedly, had a home and probably had his retirement.

Scary to think NC would have funds at his disposal to accelerate any of his plans. What happens in a case like this, when the beneficiary is imprisoned?

 

[kaen]

Scary to think NC would have funds at his disposal to accelerate any of his plans. What happens in a case like this, when the beneficiary is imprisoned?

I would imagine his brother gets half. I would imagine that his share is either used for defense until indigent or left in a trust/account for the civl suits that will be filed and won.

 

[Gooddeeds]

I find it sad (and maybe insightful) that no one went to her funeral, except the 2 kids and the neighbors who were asked for a ride! Who planned the funeral?

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Very sad and odd that there wasn’t anyone who was close enough to her to be there? No friends or acquaintances from work, church, school Moms, siblings on either side, nieces or nephews? At 68 years of age there is typically some of these. Insightful that she too had no support structure to turn too.

 

[enelram]

I was wondering if N.C. and his brother were adopted from a Russian adoption agency? I’ve heard that some of them have babies that have been sensory deprived with little to no touching, holding, interacting. And of course this creates a lot of problems as the baby goes into toddlerhood, youth, adulthood.

Hmmmm.......

Yes, Taste, this has also been a problem in US Ophanages, IME.

Back in '60's while in HS, one of my after school clubs took on a project to provide assistance to children in a Catholic
Ophanage in a neighboring city in Ct. When we went to our first meeting with the managing Nuns, we were told one of the rules in dealing with the children was that we were NOT to touch, hold, caress or hug the children. We could only
deal with them by talking, etc.
Well, every little toddler wanted nothing more than to be held, hugged, touched and caressed. They climbed up into
your lap if we were sitting. They rubbed our faces in a strange way. They wanted to be snuggled like little babies.
They were so deprived of these basic human needs, it was so sad and emotionally wrenching. Like puppies who just
wanted to be petted and snuggled.
After being scolded numerous time by the nuns for allowing the little ones to sit in my lap, I stopped going. It was
cruel and dehumanizing. For them and me.
I often wonder if some of these pathological, violent, cold murderers grew up devoid of simple, loving attention.

 

[jjenny]

Very sad and odd that there wasn’t anyone who was close enough to her to be there? No friends or acquaintances from work, church, school Moms, siblings on either side, nieces or nephews? At 68 years of age there is typically some of these. Insightful that she too had no support structure to turn too.

I don't think she worked. They moved to Fl from NY, sounds like relatives were in NY.
" Lynda was a stay-at-home mom and her late husband, who died when the boys were younger, had worked in advertising."
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...g/fl-school-shooting-cruz-20180214-story.html

 

[Inthedetails]

I don't think it would be asked in the UK either in that way. You can't just will your kids to your sister and her husband because kids are not property. What you can say is that in the event of yours and your partner's deaths your sister Tracy and her husband Darren have said they would be willing to adopt them. Social services will then investigate Tracy and Darren and go through the entire home assessment process before deciding whether the children should go to them. In effect the kids go into the adoption system with pre-nominated prospective adopters being given first dibs.

There's also a very common misconception in the UK that baptismal godparents have effectively volunteered to take the kids in if necessary but this is absolutely not the case at all.

I don't mean anyone would "will" their children to someone, but rather have a plan as you described.

I don't know why I'm not articulating my question properly on the board, but I guess I'm not. When I became a parent (by giving birth and in my early 30s), I had a plan in place in case my husband and I died and someone needed to take our kids.

But I guess adoption agencies looking at older parents don't ask that question, which I personally find surprising, especially with older parents.

But, I'll let it go. (Not that I'm blaming the adoption agency for this tragedy, by the way!)

 

[jjenny]

I don't think age of the adoptive parents had anything to do with this. All the mental conditions he reportedly had, presumably he was born that way. If younger people adopted him, I doubt it would have made a difference. Also, some reports say he claims that voices told him to do it. If that's true (and he isn't lying to go for not guilty by reason of insanity), then he developed even more serious mental issues (schizophrenia?), again, genetic predisposition which wouldn't change even if adoptive parents were 20 at the time of adoption.

 

[Inthedetails]

I don't think age of the adoptive parents had anything to do with this. All the mental conditions he reportedly had, presumably he was born that way. If younger people adopted him, I doubt it would have made a difference. Also, some reports say he claims that voices told him to do it. If that's true (and he isn't lying to go for not guilty by reason of insanity), then he developed even more serious mental issues (schizophrenia?), again, genetic predisposition which wouldn't change even if adoptive parents were 20 at the time of adoption.

I understand. The question came up not because older parents in general, but because I wondered if that indicated a foreign adoption. I wrongly assumed American adoption agencies would look at the ages of the couple and ask questions about their plans in case of death (and they both did indeed die leaving behind a minor child).

I don't think anybody here thinks that the age of the adopting parents played a role in his mental health issues. Not me, anyway. (I had an older dad myself and he was certainly up for the job.)

jmopinion

 

[enelram]

If the article above in Sun Sentinel is accurate, NC's mother tried to give both boys away to her neighbor's sister who
lived up north. NC was only 6 yrs. old. So younger 1/2 brother was 4 or so. Her husband had just died.
Don't flame me but this is just my thoughts:

I would gather from that fact, that the parents had never really bonded with these boys. Who would even discuss
giving away your children.?? Could it be that Mrs. Cruz was not a bona fide "loving" parent in the sense that she
had any emotional attachment to the boys? I find that hard to reconcile. Yes, they provided a roof over their heads and
food and clothing, but maybe not real emotional bonds.
I've seen this in other families, where parents considered their child a Pain In A$$ and child grew up unloved and
treated like an annoying problem instead of a valued member of the family. Consequently these children did not
develop healthy self-esteem or self worth. They were rejected souls. Unwanted. Problems. Nothing but trouble.
They grew up as rogues. Not well adjusted in their adult lives. Trouble with the law and fellow humans.
I just wonder if this is part of problems w/ Cruz boys.

 

[Inthedetails]

This might have been posted yesterday, but I missed it. Interesting article about the family that first took in NC after his mom died:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...amily-helped-nikolas-cruz-20180217-story.html

 

[osu]

Interview with Paul Gold, Cruz’ next door neighbor.

Roger Cruz bought the five-bedroom, three-bath home in Pine Tree estates for $94,000 in 1996. By the time he died, he left a $1 million estate, including the house, which by then was worth more than $570,000, county records show.
~snip
He and his wife met when they were married to other people, then married later in life after divorces. Gold said he wasn’t sure when the boys were adopted, but they didn’t learn they were adopted until they were in their teens.

“The family had money. Lynda even had his life insurance money — but she was very, very frugal,” Gold said. Lynda Cruz stayed home with the boys, and sometimes watched Gold’s daughter, who was friends with the boys.
~snip

“He would bang his head with his hands, and often lose control over minor things, like loud sounds,” Gold recalled.
He once smashed some golf clubs into one of Gold’s vehicles. He struggled to make friends.

He would come over after school and was visibly upset about being teased, but he pretended that he really didn’t care,” Gold said.
Despite his mother’s attention, he just felt horribly unloved, and felt he had no one to turn to,’’ Gold said.
~snip

Gold and Deschamps tried to help their mother, who was in her 60s and in poor health.
~snip

More at link:
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article200754714.html


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[jjenny]

If the article above in Sun Sentinel is accurate, NC's mother tried to give both boys away to her neighbor's sister who
lived up north. NC was only 6 yrs. old. So younger 1/2 brother was 4 or so. Her husband had just died.
Don't flame me but this is just my thoughts:

I would gather from that fact, that the parents had never really bonded with these boys. Who would even discuss
giving away your children.?? Could it be that Mrs. Cruz was not a bona fide "loving" parent in the sense that she
had any emotional attachment to the boys? I find that hard to reconcile. Yes, they provided a roof over their heads and
food and clothing, but maybe not real emotional bonds.
I've seen this in other families, where parents considered their child a Pain In A$$ and child grew up unloved and
treated like an annoying problem instead of a valued member of the family. Consequently these children did not
develop healthy self-esteem or self worth. They were rejected souls. Unwanted. Problems. Nothing but trouble.
They grew up as rogues. Not well adjusted in their adult lives. Trouble with the law and fellow humans.
I just wonder if this is part of problems w/ Cruz boys.

Some people just might be a pain in the A$$ and nothing can change it. Take someone like Adam Lanza. He wasn't adopted. Mother dedicated her life to taking care of him. You certainly can't claim she didn't bond with him. Firs person he killed was his own mother.

 

[Doghairrules]

A history is slowly emerging. He has been formally diagnosed multiple times. There is no way to have contact with any professional without a diagnosis.

He has one invol commitment that we are aware of so far, DCF was involved, a crisis team at the school and both a DCF and therapist at his house as far as we know at this point.

Right there we are at 5 dx!! At least

Mental is tough -- there are no lab tests or
xrays!

Ans since we are talking about behavior and
presentation they are subjective to some degree.

When I started I had a hard time differentiating between major depression and what was really bipolar in the depressed phase.

oT

Figure skating ugh this one guy is having a horrible program worst I have seen this year

feel bad for him I don't understand how they get
up so quick its concrete!

Where does the ouch go??

NBC has been a PIG they take commercials like every 4 minutes its obnoxious !

And did I read on here yesterday that the involuntary commitment wouldn’t have kept him from purchasing a gun in Florida? I don’t understand that at all. I thought the one thing everyone agreed on was not allowing people with serious mental health issues access to guns.

 

[chihuahua]

As someone who was adopted soon after birth (my parents got physical custody of me at several months) I have to say it is horrible to not be told that you are adopted from the time you are very little. I was.
To think that not telling an adoptee that they are adopted until they are in their teens is horrifying.
I cannot begin to think what the fallout would have been. Since the boys were already causing lots of trouble in the home, were they told as a form of "my own blood kids wouldn't act like this" form of shaming?
I don't see true bonding after the "look at my sweet little baby" stage. Unfortunately for some parents, we grow up and don't stay little forever.
I know other people my age who were adopted who were regular teens with typical acting out. Some of their parents told them that they would "give them back to the state" or "I wish we had chosen another child to adopt" etc. :tantrum:
Love shouldn't keep secrets.
jmho

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

If the article above in Sun Sentinel is accurate, NC's mother tried to give both boys away to her neighbor's sister who
lived up north. NC was only 6 yrs. old. So younger 1/2 brother was 4 or so. Her husband had just died.
Don't flame me but this is just my thoughts:

I would gather from that fact, that the parents had never really bonded with these boys. Who would even discuss
giving away your children.?? Could it be that Mrs. Cruz was not a bona fide "loving" parent in the sense that she
had any emotional attachment to the boys? I find that hard to reconcile. Yes, they provided a roof over their heads and
food and clothing, but maybe not real emotional bonds.
I've seen this in other families, where parents considered their child a Pain In A$$ and child grew up unloved and
treated like an annoying problem instead of a valued member of the family. Consequently these children did not
develop healthy self-esteem or self worth. They were rejected souls. Unwanted. Problems. Nothing but trouble.
They grew up as rogues. Not well adjusted in their adult lives. Trouble with the law and fellow humans.
I just wonder if this is part of problems w/ Cruz boys.

Possibly or possibly these two young adopted sons were so hostile, harmful, scary, unmanageable and almost inhuman? We don’t know but what we can likely assume is the adoptive parents went into this process (which can be lengthy and costly) with the right intentions and proper resources to provide a wonderful life.
We just don’t know enough......we can’t presume......