FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #2

[angelmom]

I just checked my FB page as I posted a link to the petition this am. One of my friends commented on my page that GZ worked for him for 3 years and was a nice guy, would help anybody out, not a racist, keep an open mind, yadda yadda.

I wasn't sure how to respond. How should one respond when someone defends a murderer?

Not sure if I'd respond at all, but make a mental note that this friend maybe isn't the best judge of character. Maybe. I'm just sayin'. Like, if he recommends a babysitter (or a neighborhood watch captain), you might choose to hire someone else. :innocent:

Since Zimmerman had moisture and grass all over his back, and a head injury to the back of his head, and bleeding from his nose, I think it's CLEAR he was in a physical confrontation and he was losing.

That may meet Florida's right to defend your life laws, I don't know. If I were in Zimmerman's position, I'd surely have used any weapon I had in my possession to survive.

He didn't have a head injury. He was checked and released from the hospital. Don't you think that if he had an actual injury the police would have been waving that all over the news? He had blood on the back of his head, probably from when he put his own hands to his head in the "What have I done?" position witnesses describe. It could have been Tray's blood, literally on his hands. Unfortunately we'll never know b/c the investigation was so minimal. The law says you have to be in reasonable fear for your life, not that you got your shirt dirty when you jumped an unarmed kid.

I am normally a staunch supporter of LE, but in this case, actually a 13 yr old who has seen a couple of episodes of CSI could have done a better job of investigating. They DID NOT take GZ for a drug and alcohol test even though that is SOP in any death, they did NOT make a photgraphic or get a Dr report on the injuries that GZ supposedly sustained, and there is evidence that they actively attempted to sway or change witness statements to make them more favorable to GZ. THEN they decided there was not enough evidece to take to the Prosecutor...They did a really really bad job, a shoddy job, maybe even wilful negligence, and very possible worse

They could not possibly have made a decision based on the evidence because they really didn't collect a great portion of the evidence.

EXACTLY. In fact, the crappy "investigation" may be the nail in GZ's coffin. If they had actually bothered to do any of these things, some of them may have come down on GZ's side of the story (GSR on his shirt, clean BAC/drug test, etc.) but now that it's too late people can speculate all day long. In fact, it won't surprise me at some point if GZ himself blames LE for not investigating further b/c the burden of proof is on him, and now he has nothing to work with.

When the police jump to conclusions, there are no winners. My gut has told me all along that GZ committed a murder here, but if I were a juror I'd want to see more evidence and would be frustrated. Normally that would work against the prosecutor, but in an affirmative defense case it actually penalizes the defense.

 

[Only4Justice]

I am absolutely OUTRAGED that GZ has not been arrested! How was he standing his ground when he was following Tray? Total BS. In all the years I've been interested in crime cases, I've never seen someone walking free after killing an innocent person! Where's that petition????? :banghead:

 

[Angels_Not_Forgotten]

Does anyone have any thoughts on how the call with Tray and his girlfriend dropped so quickly? I'm surprised she didn't hear more of the altercation. I can definitely see the phone call eventually dropping during a struggle, but I just can't figure out how one push would cause the phone to disconnect.

I have an Android phone that I drop, quite frequently unfortunately, and ever time its dropped, the back comes off and the battery comes out. When I first read the articles I thought that might have happened here. For whatever reason, fear, being physically attacked, or running and dropped it, I'm thinking when the phone dropped, the battery came out, and the call was ended. Does anyone remember if the girlfriend said it went to vm when she called back, or did she just say she couldn't reach him?

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[203_forensics]

How bad was Zimmerman bleeding if he was only looked at by SFD in the back of the police car according to the report? GZ had light complexion, so if he was being hit in the face he should have some bruising or redness. Since it was raining GZ could've slipped during the altercation.

 

[TerriM]

Sorry if I missed this info but is GZ related to a LE officer or someone in some kind of authority there. I'm just stunned this gounod still walking free.

 

[Talina]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...-complicate-trayvon-martin-teen-shooting-case

Richard Hornsby, an Orlando-based criminal defense attorney, says he thinks the grand jury is likely to indict Zimmerman for manslaughter, a second-degree felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison. Less likely is a more serious charge of second-degree murder, a crime that implies intent and that is punishable by up to life in prison, he said.

Trayvon Martin's final phone call -- made to his girlfriend -- is shedding new light on the moments leading up to his deadly confrontation with a neighborhood watch volunteer. NBC's Lilia Luciano reports.

“This case isn’t even a close call to me. This is a case of a guy trying to be a vigilante,” Hornsby said. “It wasn’t like he was trying to avoid trouble. He brought a firearm to a fistfight.”

“My gut feeling he will ultimately be charged with some type of manslaughter charge,” agreed Philip Sweeting, retired deputy police chief for the Boca Raton Police Department and a law enforcement consultant who has testified in court cases as an expert in police shootings and use of force.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Tray's petition is up to 765,000+ signatures. woo hoo!

Here's a link to sign it.

http://www.change.org/petitions/pro...qTpX&utm_medium=email&utm_source=action_alert

 

[Rob774]

Since Zimmerman had moisture and grass all over his back, and a head injury to the back of his head, and bleeding from his nose, I think it's CLEAR he was in a physical confrontation and he was losing.

That may meet Florida's right to defend your life laws, I don't know. If I were in Zimmerman's position, I'd surely have used any weapon I had in my possession to survive.

Have you listened to the screams on the 911 tapes?

Who does that sound like to you? A grown man or a teenager? You hear the gunshot and the screaming immediately stops. So what you are saying is this man, who outweighed this kid by 100 lbs, was losing this tussle on the ground, was pleading for his life, then it dawned on him, "shoot, i have a gun, i almost forget, better use it!" I got this from CNN...

Another caller, Selma Mora Lamilla, said she did not hear any altercation, but the teen cried and "whimpered" before the shooting.

She described Zimmerman as "straddling" the teen after the shooting, saying he was "on his knees on top of a body." Does this sound like GZ, the much larger man... was losing???


You have 2 guys, 2 intents. This kid's intent is to get home to give his brother some candy. The other guy's intent, is to go out of his way to confront this kid. From the start of this you have been passionate about seeing GZ's side of this, where its been CLEAR that because of HIS actions, this child is now dead.

 

[Sensei]

Have you listened to the screams on the 911 tapes?

Who does that sound like to you? A grown man or a teenager? You hear the gunshot and the screaming immediately stops. So what you are saying is this man, who outweighed this kid by 100 lbs, was losing this tussle on the ground, was pleading for his life, then it dawned on him, "shoot, i have a gun, i almost forget, better use it!" I got this from CNN...

Another caller, Selma Mora Lamilla, said she did not hear any altercation, but the teen cried and "whimpered" before the shooting.

She described Zimmerman as "straddling" the teen after the shooting, saying he was "on his knees on top of a body." Does this sound like GZ, the much larger man... was losing???


You have 2 guys, 2 intents. This kid's intent is to get home to give his brother some candy. The other guy's intent, is to go out of his way to confront this kid. From the start of this you have been passionate about seeing GZ's side of this, where its been CLEAR that because of HIS actions, this child is now dead.

It would be tremendously helpful if we knew exactly what "injuries" that GZ had that night. If he actually had a wound on the back of his head or if the blood that was seen was actually TM's blood which came from GZ's hands.

In a vicious fight for your life, I would expect that GZ would be battered, not only with a bloody nose, but with other bruises on his face or body showing that he was in fact the victim of a beating vicious enough to make him fear for his life.

If GZ had these type of injuries and Sanford PD simply did not document them, then he should be worse than outraged. If he did not, then I for one would find it impossible to take self defense seriously. You are not in fear for your life when someone looks at you hard, or when there is a minor tussel

With no weapon, how can you be in fear for your life if you have not been injured at all I don't think the law allows you to kill someone because you are in fear for your life even though the "attacker" does not have a weapon and you actually haven't been injured "yet" It certainly is not a case of a smaller person being attacked by a much larger and stronger person.

no matter which way you parse it, the information we have does not show any reason that GZ would have been in fear for his life, it just doesn't pass the sniff test.

 

[Marshmallow]

Where do you think he is? Running, or hiding?

both.

 

[ScubaTwinn]

Sorry if I missed this info but is GZ related to a LE officer or someone in some kind of authority there. I'm just stunned this gounod still walking free.

It was said his father is a Magistrate for the Virginia Supreme Court and his mother is a deputy court clerk. I will try to find the link for you. I am not sure about relations in Florida.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Horace, is your source for this item this Feb. 27 news article?

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

This was published the day after the killing, and apparently updated on March 14. Yet it still contains information that Tracy Martin is Tray's mother, when he is actually Tray's father.

"On Monday afternoon, a FOX 35 News crew met with Tracy Martin who said the victim in the shooting is her 17-year-old son, Trayvon, who was visiting from Miami.

"He walked out of the house to go to the store. He was going to the store," she said. "He doesn't know anybody here. He just came down here, so he was bored, so he walked down to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

So if, the day after the killing occurred, a news crew met with somebody, assigned them dad's name and said they were mom (who we now know does not live in Sanford at all), then maybe it's prudent to view this early report with a more skeptical eye. :dunno:

It doesn't mean all the info was incorrect. I suppose we'll find out at some point though.

 

[Marshmallow]

Not with "stand your ground" law.

but these circumstances do not qualify under that law. Mr Zimmerman caused the altercation by pursuing and accosting Mr Martin. It is not self defense, when you cause the altercation, you are not defending yourself.
Not to mention the willful use of a weapon, the self-proclaimed Neighborhood Watch title, and the deliberate actions by Mr Zimmernman after he called and spoke with the 911 operator. He could have continued to follow Mr Martinb in his vehicle, he chose not to. He could have followed the 911 operators advice, he chose not to. He could have allowed the proper auhthorities to handle this alleged situation, he chose the outcome because he chose to take the law into his own hands. Mr Zimmerman was not protecting himself when he caused the situation. He had clear choices, Mr Martin had none. Mr Martin was being followed, then physically accosted by a nonlaw-enforecent person he did not know. Mr Martin may have tried to protect himself from this attack, that would be self defense. Mr Zimmerman has no claim of self defense, he is the aggressor. Mr Zimmerman was the armed aggressor. Mr Martin was the victim.

 

[daisy7]

NEW YORK Trayvon Martin's parents appeared on the "Today" show Wednesday morning.

Matt Lauer asked Sybrina Fulton and Tracey Martin about the recent testimony of a 16-year-old girl who was talking over the phone with Trayvon just moments before he was shot to death.

Fulton and Martin said they trust the story told by the girl, who the family's attorney said was dating Trayvon before his death. Both parents said they want to see justice -- an arrest -- in the case.

Read more: http://www.wesh.com/news/30729178/detail.html#ixzz1pl5HYvuU

 

[JeannaT]

Have you listened to the screams on the 911 tapes?

Who does that sound like to you? A grown man or a teenager? You hear the gunshot and the screaming immediately stops. So what you are saying is this man, who outweighed this kid by 100 lbs, was losing this tussle on the ground, was pleading for his life, then it dawned on him, "shoot, i have a gun, i almost forget, better use it!" I got this from CNN...

Another caller, Selma Mora Lamilla, said she did not hear any altercation, but the teen cried and "whimpered" before the shooting.

She described Zimmerman as "straddling" the teen after the shooting, saying he was "on his knees on top of a body." Does this sound like GZ, the much larger man... was losing???


You have 2 guys, 2 intents. This kid's intent is to get home to give his brother some candy. The other guy's intent, is to go out of his way to confront this kid. From the start of this you have been passionate about seeing GZ's side of this, where its been CLEAR that because of HIS actions, this child is now dead.

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm ALWAYS passionate about seeing both sides. I'm almost always smack dab in the middle. If this forum were bashing Tray and only seeing GZ's side in this two-sided story, I'd be taking his side.

There ARE two sides here, and this forum for the time being is only seeing Tray's, so I'm here to try to state GZ's side of things.

And I personally believe GZ's injuries are more severe than the board believes at this point. But only because of what I've read in a comments section at the end of a MSM article, by someone who claimed to know him, so it's rumor and can't be cited.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

With all due respect, if they were both the same race then GZ would NOT have followed him in his truck, or on foot, and would not have shot him.

How could you know that?

 

[annalia]

but these circumstances do not qualify under that law. Mr Zimmerman caused the altercation by pursuing and accosting Mr Martin. It is not self defense, when you cause the altercation, you are not defending yourself.
Not to mention the willful use of a weapon, the self-proclaimed Neighborhood Watch title, and the deliberate actions by Mr Zimmernman after he called and spoke with the 911 operator. He could have continued to follow Mr Martinb in his vehicle, he chose not to. He could have followed the 911 operators advice, he chose not to. He could have allowed the proper auhthorities to handle this alleged situation, he chose the outcome because he chose to take the law into his own hands. Mr Zimmerman was not protecting himself when he caused the situation. He had clear choices, Mr Martin had none. Mr Martin was being followed, then physically accosted by a nonlaw-enforecent person he did not know. Mr Martin may have tried to protect himself from this attack, that would be self defense. Mr Zimmerman has no claim of self defense, he is the aggressor. Mr Zimmerman was the armed aggressor. Mr Martin was the victim.

Exactly, I really don't know what's so difficult to understand about this.

JMHO

 

[annalia]

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm ALWAYS passionate about seeing both sides. I'm almost always smack dab in the middle. If this forum were bashing Tray and only seeing his side in this two-sided story, I'd be taking his side.

There ARE two sides here, and this forum for the time being is only seeing Tray's, so I'm here to try to state GZ's side of things.

And I personally believe his injuries are more severe than the board believes at this point.

There aren't always two sides.

JMHO

 

[Sensei]

How could you know that?

have you listened to the available 911 calls? Have you heard the interview with GZ's neighbor?

One thing becomes very clear, there had been breakins in the neighborhood, possibly vandalism and petty theft. The culprits had been identified by GZ's wife, and possibly others as a group of young black males. It seems that they tended to enter and leave by some back gate, and according to GZ, these A----S always get away.

Every bit of information we have would lead a reasonable person to believe that if Trayvon had been white that GZ would never have singled him out to follow or interrogate.

Even one of GZ's neighbors said that GZ circulated a profile of a suspicious person who they thought was a criminal, and since the neighbor was black and fit the profile, he wouldn't even walk around in his own neighborhood.

One African American resident, Ibrahim Rashada, told the Herald that Zimmerman seemed friendly and helpful, but Zimmerman also circulated a description of a suspect that pulled Rashada up short. "I fit the stereotype he emailed around," Rashada said. That realization led Rashada to drive downtown whenever he wants to take a walk and stretch his legs. "I don’t want anyone chasing me," he said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-20120320,0,1508238.story

Thats how I know that and it isn't a strerch or a leap of logic it is a logical and reasonable conclusion.

 

[daisy7]

Count Miami-Dade Schools Superintendent Alberto Carvalho's voice among those blasting the lack of an arrest in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin.

(snip)

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/03/miami-dade_schools_superintend.php