FL FL - Ben McDaniel, 30, Ponce de Leon, 18 Aug 2010

[mayqueen]

Watched this today on disappeared my question is when someone went to look for him was the gate unlocked ? If the worker unlocked it for him wouldn't they go back and lock it when Ben was done? So no one else would get in there without signing in?

That's a great question, one I hadn't considered. E. Taran swam down and opened the gate for Ben Wednesday evening, just as it was starting to get dark. Taran and his diving partner were leaving the cave to go home for the night, and yet Ben was just then descending, in near darkness...?

Unlike previous occasions, Taran didn't wait for Ben to ascend, he went home because it was late. Which means, he didn't re-lock the gate that night? Was it open all night Wednesday night? Was it open all day Thursday? Thursday night? ...Because nobody noticed that Ben was missing until Friday morning.

Food for thought...

 

[clkwrks]

The McDaniels have hired a private investigator.

With all the experienced divers saying Ben's not in the cave, the McDaniels seized on a darker fate: foul play. They hired Lynn-Marie Carty, a Florida private investigator who operates a business called Reunite People, to explore that.

She's gathered criminal records of several people associated with Vortex, including its former owner, Lowell Kelly, who died under suspicious circumstances last month. When Ben disappeared, Kelly was awaiting trial on charges that he drove a temporary employee into the woods, accused him of stealing $30,000. Kelly beat him with a baseball bat. Kelly pleaded no contest and was given a fine and probation.

Carty is frustrated that authorities aren't aggressively investigating the case as a homicide.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2012/feb/19/deep-mystery-experts-disagree/

 

[terracotta]

I watched this case on Disappeared the other night. There are a couple things that are troublesome. The cadaver dogs alerting to the waters edge...I don't remember hearing whether those dogs could distinguish between human and animal remains. Also they tested the water but couldn't make the distinction.

If the former owner had that much of a temper, then maybe he was there when Ben came up from his dive that night and got mad that he went in there without signing in and being given a key.

I don't believe he committed suicide...and I don't believe he is down in the cave. Two of those decompression tanks were used, therefore I believe he surfaced.

 

[Sleuthster]

Woah! One of the certified divers that had searched for Ben died in a diving accident at Weeki Wachee yesterday. Dangerous sport IMO.

http://www.newsherald.com/articles/ponce-86634-day-resume.html

http://www.tampabay.com/news/public...-cave-diver-dies-in-weeki-wachee-dive/1222997

 

[taagean]

I can't imagine the panic one would feel getting wedged like that underwater.

 

[Sleuthster]

Here is another news link about the search for Ben McDaniel resuming and Mr. Kay saying that the line divers used was cut??? He was also one of the expert certified divers that reported the scratch marks deep in the cave.
http://www.newsherald.com/articles/search-86340-continues-springs.html

 

[Reality Orlando]

Another thing to consider. Alligators have been seen at Vortex Springs.

IMO, if gators were responsible, his wet suit and gear would have been found somewhere. The dive tanks are large, he would have mask, weight belt, dive vest, etc. Three tanks for decompression means he expected to dive fairly deep. I'm SCUBA certified and have done some cave diving. I don't like it as I tend to get claustraphobic, but strange things happen down in those caves.

Water flow can grab you when you drop down into a certain area. I had an experience where I entered a side area and got caught in some rapid water movement. It pulled me pretty far down before I could swim to the side and out of that mad flow. Luckily I was tethered and the dive master was able to help me fight against the current to get back. It just strong enough that I had some issues swimming back up stream with all the gear and weight belt, etc. (plus I was not experienced in those situations and I'm sure part of it was panic) I was scared silly and that was my last cave experience. Call me a sissy all you want, but I don't like being in situations like that where I don't have control of the situation. Cave diving is certainly not for the faint of heart or weak of muscle.

 

[Gia]

I watched this episode as well. The one thing that does point to Ben being in the cave was that the final diver, the woman from Australia, did find what is believed to be Ben's shovel way back further into the caves than any of the other divers had gone. I think she was smaller and was able to go further. She also said that there is a slight possibility he could be stuck in a crevice, as divers can panic and try to crawl into small spaces when running out of air, i.e. Personally, I do think he is in there, one way or another.

It was never explained why he was carrying over $1000 cash, which was in his truck. That seems like an awful lot of cash to leave in your wallet for a day of diving, but may be unrelated.
What security footage was available showed nothing unusual for the day he vanished.

It was kind of disturbing to learn that he was not certified for cave-diving, yet had found a way to undo the "gate" to the caves underwater, since he could not get a key. Yet the day he disappeared, the employee did give him a key or let him in, as he said that Ben would have been in more danger the way he was getting in on his own, by going under the bars or something.
It is very strange that he has not been found, but since no one has been able to get to the end of the tunnel, I guess it is possible he is there. If someone was determined enough...plus three of his tanks were found, so if he shed those, he would not have taken up so much space.

He HAD been thru depression over the death of his brother and the huge financial issues he had suffered and was still dealing with, although his family feels certain that he was not suicidal.

In any event, a very sad mystery.

BBM

I go back and forth on this. On one hand, I do believe the shovel found was his, and that he somehow made it further into the cave. I don't think it's impossible, especially if he was fearless going in. Since he was uncertified, perhaps he was trying to seize the opportunity, to go as far as he felt he could, realizing that it might be his only chance to do so (without having to attempt another break in). And then at some point, he ran out of air, panicked, got sucked further in, whatever, but he perished and his remains are deep within the cave.

On the other hand, I feel that he could have been found deceased early the next morning. Someone (the owner, the employee who opened the gate, whomever) saw that his truck was still there, went down to see if he was in the water, and found his remains. And since he was unofficially let into the cave, his body was disposed of (by one or more individuals), so the company or employee wouldn't be held liable.

The only problem with that scenario to me, is that if it were the case, why would the employee even bring attention to himself, by saying he opened the gate? Unless he felt the other diver with him, would disclose that information to LE, so he had no choice but to fess up.

I don't think Ben ran off for two reasons: One- he loved his parents and knew they were already grieving the loss of one son. And two- the fact that there was money found in the truck. If he was going to start a new life somewhere, $1000 would be very helpful, even if he did have other funds. I don't think he would have left that money behind.

 

[Skully]

I can't imagine the panic one would feel getting wedged like that underwater.

I live near Weeki Wachee Springs, I do art show there. I read about this yesterday and just saw this thread today. Wow, that is so scary. My husband used to dive, but doesn't any more. I am glad, he showed me caves and springs he used to dive in and it is easy to get disoriented or stuck if you don't do your homework before diving.

 

[Reality Orlando]

I don't know if this was posted but I just saw this:

Gainesville diver drowns at Weeki Wachee Springs

".... He and five other divers went into a cavern with several tight rock formations. Later, during their ascent, investigators [say] Kay became disoriented and got stuck in an opening that was too small for him to swim through."

http://www.wftv.com/news/ap/man-drowns-cavern-weeki-wachee-springs/nMG64/

 

[Sleuthster]

I don't know if this was posted but I just saw this:

Gainesville diver drowns at Weeki Wachee Springs

".... He and five other divers went into a cavern with several tight rock formations. Later, during their ascent, investigators [say] Kay became disoriented and got stuck in an opening that was too small for him to swim through."

http://www.wftv.com/news/ap/man-drowns-cavern-weeki-wachee-springs/nMG64/

TY. Yes, I posted this on the first page of this thread. He was one of the divers that looked for Ben and was the one who saw the scratches deep in the cave they talked about on Disappeared.

BTW, Tampabay Times has added the info now about the Ben McDaniel link. You're welcome TBT lol

 

[SwampMama]

Wow, I have dove many times at Vortex as well as Morrison and Cypress springs which are also nearby. I did not go into any caves further than the light would allow though and the opening was in my sight at all times.

I don't see how any theory where he was "sucked in" would be possible. In many springs, there is a strong current of water gushing from the caves. For instance, at Cypress ( I think, or Morrison) there is a small cave that you can only get into by grabbing on and pulling yourself in against the current of water flowing out. I know this because I entertained myself by doing then and then being shot out of the cave by the flow of water.

The cave in vortex is wider so the flow is not so strong though but does exist. It pours out 28 million gallons of water a day so there is a definite flow goming out of the cave and it just seems his body or equipment would have come out at some point.

I am not sure about the presence niches with small opening there but that would be entirely possible. That is the nature of springs to have different passages, some of which are seemingly impassible.

But why would he be so motivated to go so far into a tight spot? Some people enjoy the thrill of going farther and supposedly (legend) the cave leads to a passageway into a large house nearby.

I wonder what his motivation was. Was it just the thrill of finding a new passage or was he looking for treasure in the form of long lost item such as old bottles or even fossils?

I hadn't heard of this case before so thanks to those who brought it to my attention.

I have to say that as a diver, I found no appeal in tight passages and difficult caves. I did dive a deep cave in Florida once with my(ex) hubby once and I couldn't get past a certain point because my ears hurt because they couldn't clear (cold water makes that more likely). So hubby went down further and later came and told me that his mask came off at the bottom and luckily he caught it and put it back on. How freaking scary!! i could have been a widow on my honeymoon because of that.

I don't dive these days but my ex is still at it altho he prefers to go rig diving and spearfishing in the gulf which is also quite dangerous. One time when we were still married, he went and got nitrogen narcosis ( an often fatal disorientation where the diver is too deep and yet euphoric and not thinking straight or aware of danger). He said he saw a me down there (as a mermaid) and I (as a mermaid) told him to go back up and so he did. He might have died otherwise and body would have never been found. SCARY!!!

 

[taagean]

Here is a diagram of the Vortex Spring cave from their website:

http://www.floridacaves.com/vortexcave.JPG

 

[Simply Caustic]

I don't know anything about scuba and/or cave diving. So, I decided to check out the
thread below:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cave-diving/378983-article-ben-mcdaniel-vortex-springs-case.html
I found it very informative in regards to the view of the diving community. I first read about this case, believing that there was every likelihood that Ben McDaniel was, in fact, still 'down there.' After reading that thread, I am of the opinion that those educated as to cave diving believe this to be an impossibility.

 

[taagean]

I don't know anything about scuba and/or cave diving. So, I decided to check out the
thread below:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cave-diving/378983-article-ben-mcdaniel-vortex-springs-case.html
I found it very informative in regards to the view of the diving community. I first read about this case, believing that there was every likelihood that Ben McDaniel was, in fact, still 'down there.' After reading that thread, I am of the opinion that those educated as to cave diving believe this to be an impossibility.

Wow, they are pretty sure he is somewhere else! Although I've only read the first few pages, they don't have anything good to say at all about this guy and feel others are risking their lives looking for him.

 

[mayqueen]

I can't imagine the panic one would feel getting wedged like that underwater.

The thought is absolutely horrifying to me.

 

[mayqueen]

I don't know anything about scuba and/or cave diving. So, I decided to check out the
thread below:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cave-diving/378983-article-ben-mcdaniel-vortex-springs-case.html
I found it very informative in regards to the view of the diving community. I first read about this case, believing that there was every likelihood that Ben McDaniel was, in fact, still 'down there.' After reading that thread, I am of the opinion that those educated as to cave diving believe this to be an impossibility.

Same here, SC. When I first watched Disappeared, I was of the opinion that he had to still be down there. Occam's razor and all that. But after reading up on cave diving and seeing comments made by experienced divers, I no longer feel that way. Although I haven't the slightest idea where he is, if not in the water.

 

[mayqueen]

I don't think Ben ran off for two reasons: One- he loved his parents and knew they were already grieving the loss of one son. And two- the fact that there was money found in the truck. If he was going to start a new life somewhere, $1000 would be very helpful, even if he did have other funds. I don't think he would have left that money behind.

Respectfully snipped and bolded by me.

Yeah, the $1,000 is a sticking point for me. :waitasec: If Ben left on his own accord, why didn't he take the money? He was unemployed and owed $50k to the IRS, he wasn't exactly flush with cash. Hard to believe he'd leave that behind. (Also, why did an unemployed guy have $1,000 in his wallet?)

 

[Tristan]

I mean, let's look at this logically.
He went into the cave to dive....no on saw him come out.

Therefore, he either went in there deliberately to die, or he thought he could make it through a very small restriction, and he got snagged, panicked and ran out of air. (or something similar)

I just don't see this guy as staging his own death to start a new life.
He was super close to his family, didn't have a lot of money (which always helps) and he even had a girlfriend.

Any thoughts??

 

[mayqueen]

I mean, let's look at this logically.
He went into the cave to dive....no on saw him come out.

Therefore, he either went in there deliberately to die, or he thought he could make it through a very small restriction, and he got snagged, panicked and ran out of air. (or something similar)

I just don't see this guy as staging his own death to start a new life.
He was super close to his family, didn't have a lot of money (which always helps) and he even had a girlfriend.

Any thoughts??

The last time he was seen entering the cave was just before sunset, when the other divers were heading home. As such, I think it would have been possible for him to "stage" the cave with his decomp tanks and then leave the cave/pond without anyone seeing him. Maybe that's why he decided to dive so late in the day, because he knew no one else would be around? :twocents:

But then again, there is the issue of the cadaver dogs hitting on the pond, and the water samples testing positive for decomposition. However, the very experienced rescue/recovery divers who went down to look for him did not "smell"* decomposition and did not see evidence of decomposition (no animal activity). *A diver on a scuba board said that you can taste decomposition through your regulator... uuuugggghhh yuck yuck yuck.

Whether Ben is alive or dead, I don't think he's in the cave. If he died in the cave, I think someone moved his body, but I don't know who or why. But I trust the opinions of the diving community in this case since I am not a diver myself. JMO.