FL FL - Clermont, WhtMale UP6030, 24-32, transgender, breast implants, Sep'88

[EmmaliLucia]

I am so conflicted with this woman being listed as male in NAMUS.

On one hand, let's say before she started transitioning she ran away from everyone she knew to literally start anew and be reborn as a woman. Then it'd make sense to compare her against men.

But if she had enough surgeries that she "Passed" (I cringe just thinking about that word), maybe the people she knew would have reported her missing as a woman. And honestly I have no idea what happens to trans* people that go missing or show up unidentified. I think that is a HUGE flaw in our system seeing as how the trans* population is the most vulnerable to violence, like this poor woman found out.

 

[amputate]

I find it incredibly offensive that she is listed as male, anyone looking for her would more than likely be looking for a woman, or more specifically a transgender woman.

 

[rascal32]

I would think that She would have to be listed as a man to check for DNA matches for missing persons.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rascal32]

Plus I don't think that back then they could change their sex even after having a sex change.. So birth certificate or drivers license would likely be male


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Springrain]

Interesting new article about her:
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...ender-Woman-Still-Unidentified-After-27-Years

It also has a new recon.

 

[FiveFelines]

Interesting new article about her:
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...ender-Woman-Still-Unidentified-After-27-Years

It also has a new recon.

Thanks for posting this. Some interesting new info! I noticed they mention her upper body surgery and not lower, but I don't know if that means she hadn't had it or just that there's no way to date it (as with the implants). The bit about her cheekbone breaks my heart.

Regarding Namus, she has to be listed as male because she was genetically male, I believe. It's because of her DNA. I don't think they're trying to be insensitive

ETA: found an answer to my question in one of the Daily Kos linked articles (they're good too):

"They are unsure if or when she had full reassignment, but her body was not completely skeletonized when she was discovered, and no one saw anything in her remaining soft tissues that suggested she was not cisgender."

 

[FiveFelines]

One of the Daily Kos articles also mentions that she has a subReddit page and a Facebook page. Looks like Julie Doe has garnered a lot of interest.

 

[rats]

that first recon was so bad though... and the fact that she's listed as male makes me really angry honestly, even though I understand their reasoning.

I dont even know where to start looking for MPs?

 

[carbuff]

The new sketch looks really really familiar.

 

[Murkywaters]

that first recon was so bad though... and the fact that she's listed as male makes me really angry honestly, even though I understand their reasoning.

I dont even know where to start looking for MPs?

I think it could be a good idea to look for male missing persons, She very likely could've transitioned later in life. She could've been from a different country, it appeared she was wealthy to have had so many expensive surgeries.

 

[bflocket]

Regarding Namus, she has to be listed as male because she was genetically male, I believe. It's because of her DNA. I don't think they're trying to be insensitive...

I came of age in 1990's rural Kentucky, which I suspect that would be about as equally "redneck" as Florida at the time of this individual's death.
People, especially gay people, would kind of just "know" who was gay without anyone having to make some sort of formal announcement. There were only a couple "out" people at my high school. The rest of us just kind of kept our mouths shut, basically to avoid any kind of stigma being attached to us.

After graduation, some of us stayed around. Some of us went to the bigger cities, even if merely to Louisville a couple of counties north, where gays had more of a presence. The others, who knows?...

That being said, I honestly don't think I know a single transgendered transgender person. I know several folks that cross-dress (or whatever you'd call drag-queenism) for drag contests at the gay bars in Louisville or for parties and such. But nobody that does it in "everyday" life.

I think it's important to keep the M-to-F part (meaning stressing the "male") and that it is necessary.
There are plenty of people who just kind of "drop off the face of the Earth" once they reach maturity, or run away from home.

Such individuals were almost certain to have been looked upon as "male" at that point in their life. Those recognizing them as "female" would likely be from closer to their death. And nobody's really recognized them from that period. Either that or they didn't know their true identity.

 

[carbuff]

Here are a few males who went missing in Florida before 1984 with circumstances that make it sound like they might have wanted to cut ties and become a new woman elsewhere.

Rickey Olsen 1975 https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/28694/8

John Degnan III https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/20826/30
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/degnan_john.html
http://www.nampn.org/cases/degnan_john.html

David Rees https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/5652/36

Clifton Leonard, 16 in 1983 https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/5655/44
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/leonard_clifton.html
It sounds like he left with the intention of forming a new life; says he left clothing etc. behind and took only a few things with him. He was just out of a mental hospital but in the 70's, transsexuals were often diagnosed as schizophrenic or otherwise mentally ill I think there's quite a resemblance, but he's a bit on the young side too.

 

[EmmaliLucia]

I don't think Clifton was missing long enough to be Julie Doe... I'm guessing from what I've been talking to my friends about that she was on hormone therapy for 2-4 years before her breast-implants, and the breast implants were done before 1984.

I looked for a few males who either seemed like they could have been alive after the disappearance or there were too few details to tell, all within the age and height perimeters.

Chris Freeman. disappeared 1977, would have been 31 in 1988

Ronald Kimble. Disappeared 1977. Would have been 34 in 1988

Maxwell "Maxie" Graham. 1978. Would have been 38 in 1988

Scott Morris. 1978. Would have been 24/25 in 1988

Andrew Greer 1979. Would have been 25 in 1988

Clay Foreman. 1979. Would have been 27 in 1988

Ty Hagen. Previously broken nose. 1979. Would have been 35 in 1988

Martin Miller. 1980. Would have been 26 in 1988

Stanberry Farren. 1980. Would have been 27 in 1998

Randalll Leach. 1980. Would be 28 in 1988

Donald Shafer. 1981. Would be 22/23 in 1988

John Davis. 1981. Had money, a family, and looks like he walked out on his life. Would have been 40 in 1988

Jon Haynes. 1981. Would have been 25 in 1988.



So what do all y'all think of these people?

 

[bflocket]

I wonder if parents (especially in the 1970's/80's, but even today) would tell authorities that their missing kid was gay, let alone a cross-dresser or transsexual. Or would they even know that they were such? Kids have always been secretive about things they didn't want coming back to their parents.

It sounds as though they had their "work" (breast implants, plastic surgery, etc.) done as an adult. This could be a kid that was disowned or cast aside by their parents well before they went through the transformation process. Were that the case, would anyone have even reported them missing?

With someone other than family reporting them missing... I've had friends/acquaintances that seemed to "drop off the face of the Earth" for a long time and then I'd encountered them years later. I'd ever thought to report them missing. In my case, I'm glad I didn't (since they weren't really missing).

 

[carbuff]

At that time, you couldn't do anything until you were an adult. They made you wait until you were an adult so you were sure. Most therapists also required you to live in your chosen role for at least a year or two before any surgery, as well.

Yes, there were throwaways, and sexual issues of all sorts would be a common reason. Also, many kids who ran away would have had sexual orientation issues as a motivation, and the parents might or might not have been aware that was an issue. So she might very well have left home and be reported as a runaway boy with no mention of anything else.

 

[Night-owl]

I'm still unconvinced they are looking at a m2f transgender person, and not maybe someone who was intersexed or had androgen insensitivity syndrome.

Lots of genetic females have breast implants and nose jobs too.

It would make it difficult to match up with a reported missing person, if you don't know how they identified in the period before they vanished.

If someone reports a missing man, one might be forgiven for thinking the person wearing a skirt and with implants is the wrong body.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[webrocket]

I don't have an issue with them listing her as a male. I will assume that this UID left home as a teenager and never returned. Went off did his thing and started the process of becoming a woman. So if anyone is looking for the boy they once knew they are not going to be looking for missing females.

Reading this reminded me of a character from the movie "Paris is Burning". The victim was a transgender (M to F) who was a sex worker. At least one past client was enraged to find out that she was not a woman and she fled for her life. She wasn't so lucky on another occasion and she was murdered in a motel room.

Venus Xtravaganza - Wikipedia

 

[Springrain]

I discussed this case with Carl a while back, and he said that she should be listed as Male in NamUs because otherwise the DNA won't match.

It's not the most sensitive thing, but it's the only way she'll get identified through DNA.

 

[ArianeEmory]

I don't have an issue with them listing her as a male. I will assume that this UID left home as a teenager and never returned. Went off did his thing and started the process of becoming a woman. So if anyone is looking for the boy they once knew they are not going to be looking for missing females.

Reading this reminded me of a character from the movie "Paris is Burning". The victim was a transgender (M to F) who was a sex worker. At least one past client was enraged to find out that she was not a woman and she fled for her life. She wasn't so lucky on another occasion and she was murdered in a motel room.

Venus Xtravaganza - Wikipedia

Yes, I've watched Paris is Burning many times, and stories like Venus's are all too common. Also, not to nitpick, but it wasn't a movie, and she wasn't a character. It was a documentary of the 80s New York "ballroom" club scene (which is where Madonna got vogue-ing from), and many of the people featured in it were dead within a few years just like Venus. (I know you probably just mistyped, but others may not realize.)

(I have a trans in-law AND I live in one of the lovely states with the shiny new discrimination laws, so this hits, as we WSers like to say, close to home.)

(The victim would want to be known as female, but forensically the transgender aspect is obviously important.)

 

[webrocket]

EmmaliLucia, I hadn't seen your list when I found Martin Alan Miller on my own.

I would say on balance, he is a very good fit. Was 18 y.o. when he was last seen in West Hartford, CT in 1980. That provides the necessary window for the breast implants (done no later than 1984) after his disappearance but well before the death of this UID.

Miller was the correct height and hair color. Wanted to get away from his family and at least his rental car wound up in the South. So there is some basis to speculate that he wound up in FL. Miller's family didn't report him missing for 19 years so who knows what the story was there?

Miller and/or his family had money, although it is not clear how much he actually took with him. In Miller's discussion thread here on WS, Irish_Eyes found a discussion about Miller at Ancestry.com. If accurate then he was VERY crafty with finances even at a young age.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Martin-Alan-Miller-18-West-Hartford-May-1980

Miller's Namus page says that they have DNA. Which type is not disclosed. The UID has DNA tests done, types unknown. This could be a rule out by CODIS or a mismatched DNA type.

In any event, dentals are available for both but I would not put any stock in that. The UID had cosmetic surgery so it is possible that cosmetic dentistry may have been done too.

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/3305/7/