FL FL - Clermont, WhtMale UP6030, 24-32, transgender, breast implants, Sep'88

[JupiterAmmon]

2752UMFL - Unidentified Male

Date of Discovery: September 25, 1988

Location of Discovery: Clermont, Lake County, Florida

Estimated Date of Death: 8 months prior

State of Remains: Not recognizable - Mummified

Cause of Death: Unknown

Physical Description

Estimated Age: 22-35 years old

Race: White

Gender: Male

Height: 5'9" to 5'11"

Weight: 170 lbs.

Hair Color: Brown, long and bleached blonde.

Eye Color: Unknown

Distinguishing Marks/Features:
May have been in the process of, or had undergone, gender reassignement. Had silastic breast implants. Long manicured nails. Robust, athletic build. Possible healed fracture of anterior left 7th rib. Healed fracture of the right cheek bone secondary to blunt trauma. Healed fracture to the right 5th toe. Evidence of a surgical rhinoplasty.

Identifiers

Dentals: Available

Fingerprints: Not Available

DNA: Available

Clothing & Personal Items

Clothing: Blue-green tank top, Manisha long acid washed denim skirt, and panty hose.

Jewelry: Unknown

Additional Personal Items: Unknown

Circumstances of Discovery

A passerby looking for cypress wood to build lawn furniture, discovered the decednt's remains in a wooded area in the Green Swamp area known as Four Corners in the vicinity of Hwy 474, four miles east of Hwy 33.
Initially, the decedent was believed to be a woman and it was thought she had given birth. When the remains were tested again, DNA revealed that the decedent was male who had undergone gender reassignment surgery, which was uncommon for the era.

NAMUS LINK: https://identifyus.org/cases/6030

DOE NETWORK LINK:http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2752umfl.html

 

[JupiterAmmon]

The John Doe was originally thought to have been female when discovered in 1988 due to a certain type of pitting found on the pelvis (thought to indicate that a woman had given birth - but no longer the case as the pitting has been found on females who haven not given birth as well as males). DNA testing and bone measurements have confirmed that the decedent was in fact a transgender woman.

Here is an older reconstruction (when thought to be a biological female):

 

[JupiterAmmon]

Here is a great article from the Orlando Sentinel:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/crime/cold-cases/os-woman-transgender-man-unidentified-lake-county-20151110-story.html

Nearly 30 years have passed since deputies released a flier about a woman's decomposing body found in rural Lake County, hoping details including that she had probably given birth to several kids would help solve the mystery of her identity.

The woman wore a greenish tank top with a long acid-washed skirt and pantyhose that were partially rolled down. She had long manicured nails, long dyed blonde hair and breast implants. A lab determined she likely gave birth to one or more children before the body was found Sept. 25, 1988, along County Road 474 in Four Corners.

Just one problem: The person they found was actually a transgender woman.

Detectives recently learned the case, considered a suspicious death, had been turned upside down after the remains were tested again as part of a statewide initiative to revisit unsolved cases hoping new technology could help identify victims. Tests found the body had the DNA of a male.


"I couldn't believe it," Lake County sheriff's Detective Tamara Dale said. "For 27 years we thought it was a woman. This could really help us identify this person because gender-reassignment surgeries weren't as common back then."

Dale and her partner Sgt. James Dilimone have renewed their interest in the case, which is among 107 cold cases in the county, after finding out the twist.

The sheriff's report of the body's discovery details a passerby driving near the Green Swamp, four miles east of State Road 33 and four miles west of U.S. Highway 27, when he pulled off the side of the road.

The man, who lived in the Clermont area, was searching for wood to use for lawn furniture and spotted the perfect cypress tree. He pulled his truck over about 11 a.m. and smelled something foul as he entered the woods. He found a body hiding in 5-foot-high weeds.

Deputies were called to the area and noticed it appeared the decomposed body had been dragged into the woods two to four weeks earlier and left face up. No shoes, jewelry, handbag or wallet were found. But the person had undergone several cosmetic surgeries including breast implants and a nose job.

The nearest neighbor — about a mile away — in the rural area filled with citrus trees told authorities he didn't hear or see anything suspicious. Investigators talked with people at nearby businesses and two bars in the area but hit a dead end. Residents offered a number of leads regarding women who matched the description but each were tracked down and found safe.

"We were getting leads based on the description we released and we followed all of them, but it shouldn't come to a surprise we didn't crack the case," Dale said. "We were looking for the wrong person."

Dilimone said they have no idea if the person was murdered or had been ditched after possibly overdosing on drugs. But, he said, the woman most likely didn't die at the location where they found her and it is suspicious the body looked to have been dragged and hidden in the woods.

"It's definitely a mystery and very suspicious," he said. "By the time we uncovered the body it was already partially decomposed, so testing for drugs couldn't be done. Our best bet now is to find out who this person is. That's the first step in solving this case."

Dilimone said they speculated the woman could have been a prostitute because transition surgeries in the 1980s were even more expensive than they are nowadays.

The body was sent to the C.A. Pound Human Identification Laboratory in Gainesville, part of the University of Florida's Department of Anthropology, and analyzed by world-renowned forensic anthropologist William Maples. Maples said she was originally a brunette between 24 and 32 years old and tall — about 5 feet, 9 inches — with a robust, athletic build. The deterioration of the body didn't show any trauma. A cause of death was never found.

Maples, who died in 1997, had worked on more than 1,000 cases for law enforcement, helping to identify victims and solve how they died. He worked on a number of high-profile cases. In 1991, he participated in the examination of President Zachary Taylor's body and helped debunk a theory that he was poisoned during a struggle over slavery prior to the Civil War. He also helped identify the remains of Spanish conquistador Francisco Pizarro in Peru in 1984 and analyzed the remains of Joseph Merrick — known as "The Elephant Man" — in 1990.

Michael Warren, who now heads the lab and made the discovery in the Lake County case, said his mentor could have made the mistake for a number of reasons.

Pits on the pelvis were found, which was thought to indicate a person had given birth. The divots are caused by a hormone that softens bones for childbirth. The theory was later discredited after women who had not given birth were found with them. It was also found that men could secrete the hormone as well.

"At the time literature was starting to come out indicating those markings aren't a good indicator of childbirth or that a person is a female…," Warren said. "He was a victim of the science at the time."

Warren said it's rare to see this happen in men, but this person was taking high amounts of estrogen. That could have helped create the effect and reduce the amount of testosterone in the body. The extra intake of estrogen is common during a gender transition, Warren said.

"All the reports called the person a female. If you're getting all that information it can influence you," Warren said. "Plus, the person was wearing women's attire and had breast implants…The transgender community was much smaller back then so it wasn't something you'd expect."

DNA testing was just starting in the late 1980s, with the Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) just beginning in some parts of the country. The system saves DNA from convicted offenders and often helps law enforcement agencies with DNA matches.

At the time, Warren said, DNA testing was expensive and something that was often out of reach of law enforcement agencies that had to cover the cost. Along with the hefty price, often the tests didn't help solve crimes because CODIS was just beginning and there weren't many offenders in the system.

"I'm not shocked they didn't try to test for DNA back then," he said. "It was gaining momentum at that time but it wasn't anything compared to what we have now. It keeps getting more and more efficient and fast."

Warren also found several additional differences from Maples' original report. Warren said the body was actually taller than originally noted, 5-foot-11, and could have been a year older, up to 33.

The remains had been kept at the lab since 1988 in an evidence room filled with other unidentified people.

All these years later, Warren and lab workers decided to pull out the remains and see if new technology could help give clues about the identity. Warren had a gut reaction based on what he observed.

"The moment we pulled out the skeleton and looked at it I said 'Whoa, this is a guy,'" he said. "We did all the measurements and ran statistics on the bones and everything was screaming this was a biological male. When we got back the DNA that confirmed it we were stunned."

Both he and Lake deputies have theories that the person could have been a transient or estranged from family members before the transition from a man to a woman.

"Sadly, even nowadays the transgender community feels rejected by a lot of folks in our culture," Warren said. "It's sometimes hard for them to find employment and get money for treatment, which can be very expensive."

He said not many medical offices offered these treatments and procedures in the 1980s, and the closest areas that may have offered them would have been in Miami, Atlanta and New Orleans.

The transgender possibility never occurred to investigators.

"Wow. That's definitely a shock," said Lake County sheriff's investigator Ray Morrison, who headed the case before retiring in 2002 and moving to Alabama. "But thinking about it now, I remember she was kind of tall for a female."

Morrison said he remembered working on the case and how quickly it turned cold.

"We followed all the leads we could for a good week or so, but after that there was nothing to go on," he said.

Now, Dale and Dilimone hope the new information will provide new leads to make an identification.

"We're hoping it rings a bell for someone, whether it is the doctor who did the surgeries or a friend," Dale said. "We just want this person's family to have closure."

If you have any information about this case, call the Lake County Sheriff’s Office at 352-343-2101 or Crimeline 1-800-423-8477

chayes@orlandosentinel.com or 352-742-5936

 

[madamx]

this makes me wonder now how many other skeletons with breast implants have been mislabeled as women kind of like this Jane Doe always made me think she could be a man.. http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/227uftx.html

That doesn't make sense. You need a uterus to give birth, wear on genetically male pelvic bones is not indicative of childbirth. They should have realized that back then. But since they haven't, they should change that info now since it is clearly incorrect.

 

[madamx]

I agree I believe that we should look at teen males that have gone missing. I know because I know someone who did this and I was talking to her and she was lucky her family accepted her but many would leave as teenage boys in the late 70s and early 80s because being boys they were usually not accepted as being feminine. Also the surgeries at that time were usually done overseas in Switzerland. This is what she told me. and also there was no way a young boy could do it on his own most likely it was paid for by a sugar daddy.

I think it could be a good idea to look for male missing persons, She very likely could've transitioned later in life. She could've been from a different country, it appeared she was wealthy to have had so many expensive surgeries.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

That being said, I honestly don't think I know a single transgendered transgender person.

I have known, albeit not well, one individual with a male to female reassignment carried out in the late 90s when he was in his mid 30s. I'd met him briefly several times before he embarked on the process (still dressing and presenting as male) and her once several years after all the surgery and other treatment was said to be complete. I'd heard on the grapevine that he was in the process of surgery and various hormone treatments, and subsequently overhead a comment that "she's looking really good now". Hence it came as something of a shock when I finally encountered her because she just looked and presented like a rather camp bloke in a frock. Whether she subsequently polished up the soft skills such as how to walk or hold herself I don't know because I never saw her again, but on the basis of what I saw I find it very hard to imagine that she ever fooled anyone into thinking she was a born woman.

I'm guessing that each case has a different degree of success or otherwise. Some of the factors that come to mind are how masculine the male is to start with, the quality of the surgeons he can afford and how observant and sensitive he is to how woman move, behave and present themselves and how successfully he replicates that.

I'm also going to mention another individual I met on a number of occasions in the early to mid 1990s. To this day, neither I nor my partner can decide whether this man was an incredibly camp and simpering gay male or a very bad female to male transsexual. My partner has been in theatre, film and TV for over 40+ years and has encountered and worked with huge numbers of gay and/or camp individuals in that time, so if he can't fathom that individual out then the signals being given off were very confusing indeed.

[Dons flak jacket and ducks]

 

[madamx]

here is a boy who if he did escape this place maybe could of been this Doe.. if he was 19 in 1979 and it would put him around the same age as the doe. Also if he was having a relationship with the Guard that would make him accustomed to having interest in older me. Just my opinion of course. This boy could of been in a relationship with an older guy with money that helped pay for his surgeries as the person that I know did.
As I said earlier post my friend had gone through it and received the breast implants in 1984 and hormones by 1985 and therapy for 8 months he got the remainder of the surgery to become a full woman which he really did look like one and still does. anyway.. this is a boy in Florida that got my attention. Again just my thoughts on trying to identify this person. The height seemed close.. but I just realized Charles had tattoos.. and I don't think its mentioned that the Julie doe had Tattoos.. they never mention anything on dentals for the Julie doe either do they?


Charles Edward Collingwood
Missing since December 1979 from Brevard County, Florida
Classification: Endangered Missing

Charles Edward Collingwood
Missing since December 1979 from Brevard County, Florida
Classification: Endangered Missing


http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1426dmfl.html

 

[madamx]

here is another boy missing from Missouri whose stats might match up and kind of looks like Julie doe

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/4399dmmo.html

Clay Allen Foreman
◾Case Classification: Endangered Missing
◾Missing Since: May 28, 1979
◾Location Last Seen: Lake Tapawingo, Jackson County, Missouri

Date of Birth: December 27, 1960
◾Age at Time of Disappearance: 19 years old
◾Race: Caucasian
◾Gender: Male
◾Height at Time of Disappearance: 5'8
◾Weight at Time of Disappearance: 160 lbs
◾Hair Color: Brown
◾Eye Color: Brown
◾Alias(s) / Nickname(s): Unknown


◾Distinguishing Marks/Features: Birthmark on abdomen.

 

[GreyClay]

A video and a fairly lengthy article on the case can be found at the link, if the request is approved it could finally see the case solved:

LAKE COUNTY, Fla. - 9 Investigates the controversial DNA search that Lake County deputies hope will help them identify a victim from a 30-year cold case.

The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is currently reviewing the agency’s request to run the victim’s DNA through a database to help identify potential family members through “close” matches.

Investigative reporter Karla Ray learned Florida is one of only a few states that even allow that type of search, and locally, it’s extremely rare.

http://www.wftv.com/news/local/9-in...test-that-could-id-cold-case-victim/543858921

 

[carbuff]

I hope we can finally send her home.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

 

[Nikon]

remind me to never die in Florida...

 

[MelmothTheLost]

I'm also going to mention another individual I met on a number of occasions in the early to mid 1990s. To this day, neither I nor my partner can decide whether this man was an incredibly camp and simpering gay male or a very bad female to male transsexual. My partner has been in theatre, film and TV for over 40+ years and has encountered and worked with huge numbers of gay and/or camp individuals in that time, so if he can't fathom that individual out then the signals being given off were very confusing indeed.

[Dons flak jacket and ducks]

By way of an update to the above, my partner heard recently that this individual committed suicide a few years ago. It came out at the inquest that he was female to male transsexual.

There's a typo in my earlier post; we knew this person in the early to mid 1980s, not 1990s, so I assume any surgery had taken place in the 1970s when such surgery was presumably less advanced.

 

[madamx]

just refreshing this and bringing the stats up again

2752UMFL - Unidentified Male
View attachment 94000
Date of Discovery: September 25, 1988

Location of Discovery: Clermont, Lake County, Florida

Estimated Date of Death: 8 months prior

State of Remains: Not recognizable - Mummified

Cause of Death: Unknown

Physical Description

Estimated Age: 22-35 years old

Race: White

Gender: Male

Height: 5'9" to 5'11"

Weight: 170 lbs.

Hair Color: Brown, long and bleached blonde.

Eye Color: Unknown

Distinguishing Marks/Features:
May have been in the process of, or had undergone, gender reassignement. Had silastic breast implants. Long manicured nails. Robust, athletic build. Possible healed fracture of anterior left 7th rib. Healed fracture of the right cheek bone secondary to blunt trauma. Healed fracture to the right 5th toe. Evidence of a surgical rhinoplasty.

Identifiers

Dentals: Available

Fingerprints: Not Available

DNA: Available

Clothing & Personal Items

Clothing: Blue-green tank top, Manisha long acid washed denim skirt, and panty hose.

Jewelry: Unknown

Additional Personal Items: Unknown

Circumstances of Discovery

A passerby looking for cypress wood to build lawn furniture, discovered the decednt's remains in a wooded area in the Green Swamp area known as Four Corners in the vicinity of Hwy 474, four miles east of Hwy 33.
Initially, the decedent was believed to be a woman and it was thought she had given birth. When the remains were tested again, DNA revealed that the decedent was male who had undergone gender reassignment surgery, which was uncommon for the era.

NAMUS LINK: https://identifyus.org/cases/6030

DOE NETWORK LINK:http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2752umfl.html

 

[madamx]

I was thinking from 1984 missing in NY is enough time to show up in Florida as a woman in 1988
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/78dmny.html




Samuel Arthur Todd
Missing since January 1, 1984 from Manhattan, New York City, New York County, New York
Classification: Endangered Missing



Vital Statistics
Date Of Birth: June 12, 1959
Age at Time of Disappearance: 24 years old
Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'11; 135 pounds
Distinguishing Characteristics: White male. Light brown hair; blue eyes. Todd wears eyeglasses.
Medical Conditions: Todd may be suffering from amnesia and may not know who he is.
Marks, Scars: Two small scars on cheek near left eye.
Clothing: Last seen wearing a dark blue sweatshirt with a circular emblem of Ecolint Geneve
stitched across the front; blue jeans; blue running shoes; and dark-framed eyeglasses.
Dentals: Not available



Circumstances of Disappearance
Todd vanished after stepping out of a New Year's party for fresh air. He was last seen walking near Mulberry and Houston Streets in Manhattan, NY on New Year's Day 1984.
Sam left his wallet and jacket at the party. He had no cash and no identification on him.
Investigators believes Sam is suffering amnesia from a hit on the head. Several persons, including one at the city-operated Men's Shelter in the Bowery, claim they saw Sam wandering in the area after his disappearance. A worker at the Men's Shelter told police he saw Sam, lean and hungry, eating soup. A day later, someone spotted a a thin man with blond hair washing car windows on a street in Greenwich Village.
Todd was a clergy student at the time of his disappearance.

 

[madamx]

oh I also came across this one and had a thought, If this person was living life as a woman and everyone knew her as a woman.. then she would of been reported as a woman (if she was reported missing at all).

I came across this woman missing from Orlando and the jane doe was found in Clairmont which is not far from Orlando sadly there is no photo of her.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/3221dffl.html

Elizabeth R. Bodor
Case Classification: Missing
Missing Since: March 22, 1988
Location Last Seen: Orlando, Orange County, Florida


Physical Description
** Listed information is from the time of disappearance.

Date of Birth: August 1, 1964
Age at Time of Disappearance: 23 yrs
Race: White
Gender: Female
Height at Time of Disappearance: 5'4" to 5'5"
Weight at Time of Disappearance: 125 lbs
Hair Color: Blond/Strawberry
Eye Color: Hazel
Alias(s) / Nickname(s): None

Distinguishing Marks/Features: Scar on chin; scar on arm

Dentals: Not Available
Fingerprints: Not Available
DNA: Not Available


The Doe Network

If you have found a photo of this person please contact appropriate member of the Area Team

Elizabeth R. Bodor
Case Classification: Missing
Missing Since: March 22, 1988
Location Last Seen: Orlando, Orange County, Florida


Physical Description
** Listed information is from the time of disappearance.

Date of Birth: August 1, 1964
Age at Time of Disappearance: 23 yrs
Race: White
Gender: Female
Height at Time of Disappearance: 5'4" to 5'5"
Weight at Time of Disappearance: 125 lbs
Hair Color: Blond/Strawberry
Eye Color: Hazel
Alias(s) / Nickname(s): None

Distinguishing Marks/Features: Scar on chin; scar on arm

Dentals: Not Available
Fingerprints: Not Available
DNA: Not Available
Clothing & Personal Items
Clothing: Unknown

Jewelry: Unknown

Additional Personal Items: Unknown


Circumstances of Disappearance
30RG662 Poss Foul Play Vehicle Info 1984 Toyota Tan Pick up Truck

 

[madamx]

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1799dffl.html

Joan Marie Tetter
Missing since March 21, 1988 from Tampa, Hillsborough County, Florida
Classification: Missing

Vital Statistics
Date Of Birth: July 25, 1957
Age at Time of Disappearance: 31 years old
Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'6"; 120 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: White female. Blonde hair; blue eyes.
Tattoos: Tattoo on abdomen


Circumstances of Disappearance
Joan Tetter was last seen in Tampa, FL on March 21, 1988.
She worked as a registered nurse at the time.

 

[madamx]

There are different articles that I have seen for Julie Doe and all have different heights for her.. Its a bit difficult

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1153dfca.html

Charlene Elaine Barrios
Missing since September/October 1988 from Oakdale, California
Classification: Missing

Vital Statistics
Date Of Birth: March 26, 1962
Age at Time of Disappearance: 26 years old
Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'9"; 195 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: White female. Brown hair; hazel eyes.
Marks, Scars: Scar - right knee. Scar - right leg. Tattoo right shoulder.


Circumstances of Disappearance
In August of 1990 the mother of Charlene reported that she was missing.
She said that she last spoke to Charlene in September or October 1988, when Charlene mentioned she was in Florida.
All efforts are being made to locate Charlene and the case is actively being worked by authorities.

 

[madamx]

here is another boy missing from Missouri whose stats might match up and kind of looks like Julie doe

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/4399dmmo.html

Clay Allen Foreman
◾Case Classification: Endangered Missing
◾Missing Since: May 28, 1979
◾Location Last Seen: Lake Tapawingo, Jackson County, Missouri

Date of Birth: December 27, 1960
◾Age at Time of Disappearance: 19 years old
◾Race: Caucasian
◾Gender: Male
◾Height at Time of Disappearance: 5'8
◾Weight at Time of Disappearance: 160 lbs
◾Hair Color: Brown
◾Eye Color: Brown
◾Alias(s) / Nickname(s): Unknown


◾Distinguishing Marks/Features: Birthmark on abdomen.

 

[madamx]

this is from 2015 but has a video and some more info on how and where the body was found
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...-unidentified-lake-county-20151110-story.html

 

[MelmothTheLost]

It seems to me that one of the big issues in cases like this is that of how well the individual "passes" for the sex they want to be.

Looking at the sketch issued of this particular deceased, I have to say that I'm not at all convinced that anyone meeting him/her would accept without question that this was a woman. To me the face seems much too masculine for that.

There seems to be a world of difference between a transition that is so successful that the person "passes" without question and one that isn't, where those who knew the transitioned person would say "It was pretty bloody obvious".

Maybe my personal experience is colouring my thoughts, since neither of the transsexuals I've known were at all convincing.