FL FL - Clermont, WhtMale UP6030, 24-32, transgender, breast implants, Sep'88

[MelmothTheLost]

I don't know if anyone has read it but I have not found it.. I only find that she had upper body surgery.. so then what did she have on the bottom? I cant seem to find any info on that anywhere. Also did they ever do isotopes on Julie Doe?

I would imagine that the testicles at least would have been removed since there'd be no point giving her female hormones to support the change if her body was still pumping out male ones.

 

[Nancy Drew RN]

I would imagine that the testicles at least would have been removed since there'd be no point giving her female hormones to support the change if her body was still pumping out male ones.

Here is some good information on male to female hormone therapy. Basically, the testicles can stay in place, and anti-androgen hormones would be given. These work by decreasing production of androgens, competing for binding sites for androgens in the body, etc. There are many transgender people who take hormones and choose to not do bottom surgery.

I'm not completely clear on the condition her body was found in--Namus says "not recognizable-mummified"--but if they didn't realize that she was transgender until they did DNA, I'm thinking it wasn't necessarily intact. Otherwise I'd assume they'd notice the lack of ovaries/uterus on autopsy. It's also worth noting that NamUs says she "may have been" undergoing gender reassignment--I think if she'd clearly had bottom surgery, that wouldn't be up in the air.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Thank you.

Here is some good information on male to female hormone therapy. Basically, the testicles can stay in place, and anti-androgen hormones would be given. These work by decreasing production of androgens, competing for binding sites for androgens in the body, etc. There are many transgender people who take hormones and choose to not do bottom surgery.

Do you know why many don't do the bottom surgery? Cost? Or keeping a foot in both camps in case they later want to revert? Other reasons?

I'm not completely clear on the condition her body was found in--Namus says "not recognizable-mummified"--but if they didn't realize that she was transgender until they did DNA, I'm thinking it wasn't necessarily intact. Otherwise I'd assume they'd notice the lack of ovaries/uterus on autopsy. It's also worth noting that NamUs says she "may have been" undergoing gender reassignment--I think if she'd clearly had bottom surgery, that wouldn't be up in the air.

If she was still in the process that narrows it down time-wise somewhat. Maybe the top had been done and she was saving up to have the bottom done, or maybe she wasn't going to go that far.

As a matter of interest, is this type of surgery normally covered by health insurance policies or is it always going to be something the patient has to pay for themself?

(I was somewhat surprised to learn that bariatric surgery may be covered by US health insurance. I'd assumed that would always be self-pay.)

 

[Nancy Drew RN]

Thank you.



Do you know why many don't do the bottom surgery? Cost? Or keeping a foot in both camps in case they later want to revert? Other reasons?



If she was still in the process that narrows it down time-wise somewhat. Maybe the top had been done and she was saving up to have the bottom done, or maybe she wasn't going to go that far.

As a matter of interest, is this type of surgery normally covered by health insurance policies or is it always going to be something the patient has to pay for themself?

(I was somewhat surprised to learn that bariatric surgery may be covered by US health insurance. I'd assumed that would always be self-pay.)

I just realized that I didn't actually link in the last post, so here.

Loss or reduction of sexual function is one reason someone may not undergo bottom surgery. There's also just a lot more surgeons who do breast implants/reductions than bottom surgery, so it's easier to come by and cheaper. I think some insurance companies now cover treatment for gender dysphoria, but it seems likely that Julie would have had to pay for her own.

 

[carbuff]

Could probably contact a Toronto trans support group and see if they know her.

I read that book, probably in 1976 or 77.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

I just realized that I didn't actually link in the last post, so here.

Loss or reduction of sexual function is one reason someone may not undergo bottom surgery. There's also just a lot more surgeons who do breast implants/reductions than bottom surgery, so it's easier to come by and cheaper. I think some insurance companies now cover treatment for gender dysphoria, but it seems likely that Julie would have had to pay for her own.

That was very interesting - thank you.

I was looking at the photos of the developed breasts after hormone therapy. I'm thinking that since Julie had breast implants and the recent sketch makes her look still very masculine, maybe she didn't have hormone therapy as part of her treatment, or maybe she did but in her case it just wasn't very effective.

 

[Roselvr]

I don't know if anyone has read it but I have not found it.. I only find that she had upper body surgery.. so then what did she have on the bottom? I cant seem to find any info on that anywhere. Also did they ever do isotopes on Julie Doe?

Think of it this way, when Julie was found there was only evidence of breast implants, not breasts or a penis because of decomp. Same if she would have been born female, the female organs would be decomposed. They knew she had implants because they did not decompose.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Think of it this way, when Julie was found there was only evidence of breast implants, not breasts or a penis because of decomp. Same if she would have been born female, the female organs would be decomposed. They knew she had implants because they did not decompose.

From what I've read, the uterus is the last internal organ to decay because of the extremely tough muscle it's made from.

 

[Roselvr]

Thank you.



Do you know why many don't do the bottom surgery? Cost? Or keeping a foot in both camps in case they later want to revert? Other reasons?



If she was still in the process that narrows it down time-wise somewhat. Maybe the top had been done and she was saving up to have the bottom done, or maybe she wasn't going to go that far.

As a matter of interest, is this type of surgery normally covered by health insurance policies or is it always going to be something the patient has to pay for themself?

(I was somewhat surprised to learn that bariatric surgery may be covered by US health insurance. I'd assumed that would always be self-pay.)

Having top and bottom surgery is very important to someone born in the wrong body. Watch the TLC show Jazz. It's about a (now) girl born male and her journey to be in the right body. Since she was little and could talk she's said girl brain, boy body. She's one of the lucky ones to have been put on hormones as soon as they were needed. She didn't have male puberty so her voice never deepened, never had an Adam's apple. She grew breasts on her own with hormones and they stunted the growth of her penis which is bringing new problems to have bottom surgery. She's one a few people who actually have "nothing to work with down there" because her penis never grew. They're trying all different things to achieve a female organ. I believe I missed the last episode where they made a decision about which surgery to do. One option was to use male hormone cream to make her penis enlarge so that they could use it for a female organ but she couldn't even do that last I saw because it's very traumatic to have a penis when the rest of her is female. Jazz does have trans friends so we can see the difference between someone who was stunted by hormones and who was not like her friend Noel who struggles with a deep voice and manly features due to puberty.

Back when our girl went thru it, we don't know if she hadn't done it yet due to finances or something else or if she had gone thru with it because her remains were in such bad shape.

I hope I explained it ok so as not to offend anyone. I personally do not know anyone in real life so I only have seeing Jazz and Caitlyn Jenner to go by. My heart goes out to both of them and their families and anyone born in the wrong body.

 

[madamx]

Here is some good information on male to female hormone therapy. Basically, the testicles can stay in place, and anti-androgen hormones would be given. These work by decreasing production of androgens, competing for binding sites for androgens in the body, etc. There are many transgender people who take hormones and choose to not do bottom surgery.

I'm not completely clear on the condition her body was found in--Namus says "not recognizable-mummified"--but if they didn't realize that she was transgender until they did DNA, I'm thinking it wasn't necessarily intact. Otherwise I'd assume they'd notice the lack of ovaries/uterus on autopsy. It's also worth noting that NamUs says she "may have been" undergoing gender reassignment--I think if she'd clearly had bottom surgery, that wouldn't be up in the air.

I am thinking the same thing. I don't think it could of been visible even though body said mummified. Yes your right they would of noticed lack of ovaries uterus and or a penis and testicles. It's strange because I read she wAs laying on her back when she was found. I don't know how long it takes a body to decompose but mentions bring mummified. I would think there would be a sign of a penis and if not a uterus no? Sorry just trying to picture it since it really never was mentioned.

 

[dotr]

Sorry to suggest this, but.
Since this uid person was likely murdered, maybe the killer did something horrible, resulting in something missing... imo.

 

[carbuff]

My colleague who transitioned in the early 80's had the bottom part done last. I don't think I've ever seen anybody as happy as she was when she came back to work all woman.

It's highly variable what they would have been able to detect in terms of soft tissue remains. Soft parts that protrude tend to be the first to go. Small rodents and carrion birds are very fond of that sort of thing.

There wouldn't be a uterus involved.

 

[madamx]

Sorry to suggest this, but.
Since this uid person was likely murdered, maybe the killer did something horrible, resulting in something missing... imo.

you know dotr.. as I was typing my last response.. I was sort of thinking the same thing. because no trace of either is there.
I also wonder if there were any other transgender or men in drag murders at that time reported.

 

[madamx]

My colleague who transitioned in the early 80's had the bottom part done last. I don't think I've ever seen anybody as happy as she was when she came back to work all woman.

It's highly variable what they would have been able to detect in terms of soft tissue remains. Soft parts that protrude tend to be the first to go. Small rodents and carrion birds are very fond of that sort of thing.

There wouldn't be a uterus involved.

but it mentions she was wearing a long denim skirt at the time. wouldn't the denim have covered it.. I don't know how long does denim take to decompose though.

 

[carbuff]

but it mentions she was wearing a long denim skirt at the time. wouldn't the denim have covered it.. I don't know how long does denim take to decompose though.

That's why I said it was highly variable--things like that certainly would have impacted the amount of decay. A skirt probably wouldn't be as much impediment as jeans would.

And with these reports, it's hardly ever clear whether they found entire garments, or just enough traces to let them conclude it was a long denim skirt.

 

[madamx]

That's why I said it was highly variable--things like that certainly would have impacted the amount of decay. A skirt probably wouldn't be as much impediment as jeans would.

And with these reports, it's hardly ever clear whether they found entire garments, or just enough traces to let them conclude it was a long denim skirt.

Yeah your right carbuff..I just keep trying to get a visual.. and everything is so vague ha! thank you for helping me out here.

 

[wary]

That was very interesting - thank you.

I was looking at the photos of the developed breasts after hormone therapy. I'm thinking that since Julie had breast implants and the recent sketch makes her look still very masculine, maybe she didn't have hormone therapy as part of her treatment, or maybe she did but in her case it just wasn't very effective.

I thought that Julie probably did have serious estrogen treatment--and that was the reason for those pelvic bone notches that they thought at first were the result of childbirth.

 

[Elainera]

Hi all! I read the whole thread and let me start by saying that I feel very sad for Julie. It seems she had a very hard life and was apparently murdered at a young age. It just feels so unfair after everything she went through!

My theory is she probably didn't have bottom surgery and that was the reason someone killed her - when they found out. She was found with her pantyhose rolled down, it looks to me like someone was checking and then killed her when they saw male organs. I think it's very unlikely she rolled down her pantyhose herself and then suddenly died. A lover? A client?

Seems to me she was involved with a tough crowd, she had broken ribs and a broken cheekbone as well. Maybe the violence escalated one day.

Just my thoughts from what is known.

I hope she is at peace and I hope that she can be identified and get her name back.

 

[dotr]

you know dotr.. as I was typing my last response.. I was sort of thinking the same thing. because no trace of either is there.
I also wonder if there were any other transgender or men in drag murders at that time reported.

There have been recent cases, actually Carbuff's post on that thread brought me to this one.
FL - Is a serial killer stalking Florida trans women?

 

[Roselvr]

Went back to review the thread. What I'm seeing is she's believe to have been deceased anywhere from 2 to 4 weeks and possibly as long as 8 months according to NamUs. According to what I'm reading, there were no organs left to identify her as male verses female but when she was recently brought out of "storage" (sad she wasn't buried but then again they knew where she was)... they knew she was a male due to her bone structure. We just know so much more now then before.

Body found 27 years ago was transgender woman, authorities say

Deputies were called to the area and noticed it appeared the decomposed body had been dragged into the woods two to four weeks earlier and left face up. No shoes, jewelry, handbag or wallet were found. But the person had undergone several cosmetic surgeries including breast implants and a nose job.

Dilimone said they have no idea if the person was murdered or had been ditched after possibly overdosing on drugs. But, he said, the woman most likely didn't die at the location where they found her and it is suspicious the body looked to have been dragged and hidden in the woods.

"It's definitely a mystery and very suspicious," he said. "By the time we uncovered the body it was already partially decomposed, so testing for drugs couldn't be done. Our best bet now is to find out who this person is. That's the first step in solving this case."

Dilimone said they speculated the woman could have been a prostitute because transition surgeries in the 1980s were even more expensive than they are nowadays.

The remains had been kept at the lab since 1988 in an evidence room filled with other unidentified people.

"The moment we pulled out the skeleton and looked at it I said 'Whoa, this is a guy,'" he said. "We did all the measurements and ran statistics on the bones and everything was screaming this was a biological male. When we got back the DNA that confirmed it we were stunned."

A video and a fairly lengthy article on the case can be found at the link, if the request is approved it could finally see the case solved:
9 Investigates controversial test that could ID cold-case victim

9 Investigates controversial test that could ID cold-case victim By: Karla Ray
Updated: Jun 28, 2017 - 6:33 PM

9 Investigates learned the sheriff’s office is hoping to identify who they call “Julie Doe” with the help of a rare search. The agency sent a letter to FDLE requesting a “Familial DNA" search, using the same criminal DNA database detectives use to track down murder and sex-assault suspects.

Julie Doe’s DNA would be compared to close matches to identify possible family members in hopes of identifying the cold case victim.

FDLE is still reviewing Lake County’s request, and in the meantime, detectives are also awaiting isotope analysis from the University of South Florida.

Thanks for posting this.
edit link to original article New Sketch of "Julie Doe", Transgender Woman Still Unidentified After 27 Years
Some interesting new info! I noticed they mention her upper body surgery and not lower, but I don't know if that means she hadn't had it or just that there's no way to date it (as with the implants). The bit about her cheekbone breaks my heart.

Regarding Namus, she has to be listed as male because she was genetically male, I believe. It's because of her DNA. I don't think they're trying to be insensitive

ETA: found an answer to my question in one of the Daily Kos linked articles (they're good too):

"They are unsure if or when she had full reassignment, but her body was not completely skeletonized when she was discovered, and no one saw anything in her remaining soft tissues that suggested she was not cisgender."

From the article - She was between the ages of 22 and 35 according to her profile on the National Missing and Unidentified Persons System, or NamUs, and was about 5'10 with naturally brown hair. Her upper body reassignment surgery was likely done no later than 1984, because her 250cc silicone breast implants had been discontinued for five years at the time of her death, and was most likely performed in either Miami, Atlanta, New Orleans, New York City, or California. She also had a rhinoplasty, and had likely been on hormonal therapy for several years before her death.

She may have mentioned at least one physical assault that fractured her cheekbone and likely broke her nose. She also had a healed rib fracture. You may have seen her as a patient in one of the six clinics that treated gender dysphoria at that time in the United States, or in a support group for individuals transitioning during those years. You may also have seen her in 1988 or thereabouts in the Orlando LGBT community.

It is a tough call. Especially for those with gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is different from trans dressing and is not based on sexual preference either. In this situation, going by the biological gender at birth is more likely to find a match then listing her as female. The thing is biological family can/could have reported her as him missing, but those who truly cared i.e. "family" might not have had the right to report her missing at the time. While it dishonours her gender identity, the match will ultimately come from "his" family. And "his" family might never come forward due to the transition. It could be a before and after change. Her change also most likely came with a name change. And tracing a missing woman without DNA will be very difficult. We honour her gender identity by referring to her as she while knowing the match might come from family who may not even be aware of this transition.

It would seem only a handful of places and doctors were performing surgery at that time. She should be fairly easy to identify. I would imagine someones patient suddenly stop refilling oestrogen tablets. Not many people had the financial ability or resources to make the full transition back then. It would seem the community would know who this is. Unfortunately, due to the AIDS epidemic in major cities where a cisgender person could fit in, many historians could be lost. This really should be easy to narrow down though. There is such a brief period of time this could have occurred it seems.

This article is interesting:

A Brief History of Transsexuality

And Christine Jorgensen is a pioneer. This article offers so leads into the history of gender reassignment.

Christine Jorgensen - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery_(male-to-female)

You bring up a few great points. Number one - AIDS. How many potential people to ID her could be lost to AIDS?

Next, if any of the clinics mentioned are still around would they even recognize her or have her records? Is it possible clinics that do this would save records longer to show various procedures they used to do that are not done now?

Julie has a FB page I thought the last post was Nov 2015 but that's a pinned post. They did post DDP is taking the case. I'm speaking to them right now suggesting they add the LE monitoring the page to the DDP post and pin that so the newest post is pinned to the top so people see they use the page.