FL FL - Clifford & Christine Walker, both 23, & 2 kids, Osprey, 20 Dec 1959

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

I read In Cold Blood as a kid (sneaked my mom's copy out of the bedroom - she was NOT happy) and I've never forgotten it. I'm following this development closely.
 
Im afraid they are going to be disappointed in the results of this DNA test.
 
If I were a betting person, once DNA rules out Hickock/Smith, my opinion is that Elbert Walker drove Ozie Youmans to the house, finding her there alone OY did the assault on Christine Walker and they both did the killings...EW returned the next day and conveniently left OY "at a bar" during his being shocked act in front of deputies. Was OY ever ruled out by DNA? I have not found that, if it has, I will re-think my opinion, until then...
 
Sarasota said:
any data, or opinion?.....can you please elaborate?
Click to expand...
Oh,no data .
I just dont think Hickock and Smith were the killers of the Walker Family.
As Myself and others have said the Walker case reeks of a personal fix on Mr;s Walker.
Hickock and Smith would kill somebody if they thought they had money,they would kill for a car if they were on foot.
I m sure Hickock alone would have been capable of a sexual assault,he wanted to rape Nancy Clutter (after she was tied up...he seemd to be a bit of a coward) but that would have been collateral to the robbery and Smith had some very strong opinions about that type of thing and wouldnt allow it.
And even so to my knowledge prior to that Forcible rape didnt seem to be Hickocks M.O.he seems more like a pedophile seducer.
The Walker murder seems to be primarily a sexual assault....what in the world would Smith and Hickock want with Mr's Walkers Majorette Uniform or Marriage licence?
The Walkers also seemed to be poor working folks they sure didnt look like a likely target for robbery.
Ill certainly be interested in seeing the results of the DNA though!
 
I get the Sarasota Herald Tribune (headlines) via e-mail every day and so far there is no word on the DNA results. Hopefully we'll hear something soon.
 
Here's mine...:newhere:

Looking over the redacted case file, the facts hint at the actions of an early-stage sexual sadistic killer. Chiefly, the strong indications that sexual assault was the motivator coupled with the taking of mementos; indications of planning/preparation (albeit disorganized in nature); the absence of typical robbery characteristics ; the bumbling killings and the seemingly rapid progression through the sexual component all seem to point to a “lust killer” who’s progressing from assailant to murderer. The very personal nature of the two items taken that were linked to Christine Walker seems to be very telling. The majorette uniform and wedding certificate are items that have sentimental value, but no appreciable monetary value (and carried the heavy cost of risk of prosecution, if caught with them). Items of this nature, taken during commission of a sexually violent crime are almost always taken for one reason, the offender wants to relive the crime (or at least the portion of the crime that provides the euphoria/emotional release). Sexual sadistic killers (SSKs) take items that invoke the strongest nostalgia of their act. SSKs that attack victims of convenience (or surrogates for the object of their obsession) tend to take items closely linked to the victim and the crime (e.g. undergarments, jewelry worn by the victim during the crime, etc.). In this case, items taken that were linked to Christine Walker were independent of the crime, indicating that the killer’s intensive emotional build-up and attachment to the victim occurred prior to the crime, probably when she would have been routinely seen wearing the majorette uniform. The Disorganized Asocial Murderer variety of the SSK is characterized by strong feelings of inadequacy and seeing the objects of their obsession as “unobtainable objects”. Fixation on a female can easily be escalated when observing her in her most socially successful setting (further driving feelings of inadequacy by seeming more “unobtainable”). Christine Walker had often recounted, to her friends/family, fond times of being a majorette and was even reserving that uniform for her daughter, indicating that this was a socially progressive time for her. It’s also noteworthy that the uniform was stored in a cedar chest, out of plain view. And, the house seemed “in order” to investigators, indicating no visual evidence of rummaging. This suggests a level of focus, either in searching for that item that meant a lot to him or in knowing where it was kept and selectively retrieving it. The selection of the wedding certificate is also intriguing, given the gender roles in 1959. As the male was commonly seen as the dominant/superior component to the relationship, the killer could easily have seen the certificate as something of a “title of ownership” for Christine Walker, driving him to take it to affirm, in his own mind, his psychological possession of her. This crime also shows probability of planning, as the killer arrived at the Walker residence with a gun, on an evening just before Cliff Walker was going hunting and appears to have been on foot (less convenient, but more versatile/lower visibility for access and fleeing). There was also repetition and structured thought. All of the victims were shot in the head (initial shot above the hair line for all except Cliff Walker). The scene was partially altered in an apparent attempt to cover up or disguise the crime. Specifically, the bed was covered with bed-cloths hiding blood stains; Christine Walker’s legs were wiped and bloody clothing (possibly used as rags to wipe off) was bagged and discarded at another location. Although planning seems to have been an element, the crime scene clearly shows a disorganized nature. The blitz attack, lack of physical-restraint usage, opportunistic action and application of brute force, rather than coercion, are all classic disorganized assailant behaviors. Investigators all but concluded that the crime was initiated by a blitz attack on Christine Walker. Bruising on the arm and contusions on the cheek & forehead are indicative of brute-force submission. There was no indication of restraint usage reported, either from investigators or the medical examiner. The killer showed opportunistic tendencies by using readily available materials for everything except the shootings (nearby clothing/blanket for wiping up; using the closest bed for the assault, rather than moving her to the martial bed to enforce sexual dominance; bathtub drowning the girl, including the use of a sock to act as a drain plug). The method of the killings also indicates that the killer was inexperienced at this point. The selection of a gun is almost always driven by a mechanical desire for efficiency. Yet, a 22-caliber gun with short rounds is the least reliable percussion-cap selection. This proved to be true in this case, as the first round fired at Christine Walker’s and the son’s heads ricocheted without penetrating. While a lucky single shot to Cliff Walker’s head hit a weak point, just below the eye socket, and sufficiently damaged the brain to induce quick death, the other three victims were not so fortunate. The last indication that this may be a cross-over killing of a SSK is the apparently rapid progression through the sexual assault. Based on the investigator’s timeline, the killer didn’t have much more than 15-20 minutes to attack, assault & kill Christine Walker and possibly perform some post-event activities (retrieving mementos, cleaning/covering up). And, the clothing was disheveled, but not removed. Experienced SSKs have tendencies towards more planning, more organization and, most always, prolonged & more intense sexual assault and/or killing scenarios.

The mechanical and callous nature of the killings seems to hold clues to the killer’s mindset as well. The killer chose the systematic use of a gun over emotion-engaging methods, such as stabbing or strangulation (even when the ammunition was suspected to have been use up). This points to a purely capture-preventative measure, rather than an objective of the criminal act. Even drowning is a more aloof killing method, particularly for a male growing up in a rural and/or farming community where drowning of smaller/manageable animals is sometime viewed as an “acceptable” method of euthanasia. The killing of small children is highly unusual. Even in the realm of homicidal psychopaths, murdering children is taboo; and the younger they are, the stronger the taboo (this was even more true in 1959 society). For this killer to murder two young children, when it’s not fulfilling some desire, he would have to have a strong dissociation with society and minimal or no ability to empathize. The killer most likely thought that the kids could identify him, either because of a lack of understanding of early childhood retention & recall or possibly because they would know him by name.

Also noteworthy is the location that the bloody clothing was dumped. The clothing was found in an out-building, located just under two miles, directly west of the Walker residence and approximately a half mile east of the intersection of Highway 41 and Bay street. Present day, this location is approximately where residential transitions to business. If this was the same in 1959, this may indicate that the killer’s vehicle was parked at a closed business or on a vacant lot. This would allow for a reasonable hike through the woods/undergrowth to the Walker residence without being observed on the desolate portion of the road on which the Walkers lived.

If the non-redacted Walker case file also points toward a disorganized asocial sexual sadist, he would likely have attended Arcadia High School in the early 1950’s and would have been raised in very dysfunctional (likely abusive) household. He would also be of below-average to average intelligence and would be a social outcast; thought of as weird or odd, but perceived as generally harmless (except possibly when under the influence of alcohol or enraged). If he follows “typical” patterns, he would have moved away shortly after the murders. He would also continue to sexually assault women and may kill to elude capture (but, likely with a more powerful gun). And, he would introduce more organized control measures, such as restraints, coercion and selecting more controllable environments for commission of the crime.
:takeoff:
 
great post Investanalysis. Wow -- intriguing theories..... thank you for sharing this and you seem to have some local knowledge of the Sarasota area
 
Thanks, Sarasota & wfgodot.

I’m not from the area. I just segregated data within the three sections of the case file (the ones that you linked to) into categories, including geographical relationship. I then researched area mapping, property platting and established landmarks in an attempt to reveal patterns or relationships not obvious on the surface. Much has changed with time though. The portion of the road where the Walkers lived looks to be little more than an ATV trial now. And the railroad that is used as a landmark reference in several investigative notes is now a bike trail.

Here's hoping that DNA or other new evidence leads the Sarasota County Sheriff's department to close this one :crossfingers:
 
Matthew Doig: “Basically, they (Hickock & Perry) were ruled out over faulty fingerprinting and a faulty lie-detector test."
http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/20...ill_dna_tie_perry_smith_and_dick_hickock.html


Faulty fingerprinting--Ah ha, now that clarifies why it was thought Hickock and Perry should be dug up. The years earlier return of "no match" may have been incorrect.

The KBI will take DNA from what was bone marrow, Kyle Smith said. He said one of its labs will do the analysis behind higher-priority tests for criminal cases about to go to trial, and he wasn't sure how long it would take.
http://www.breitbart.com/system/wire/DA38GJI80
 
Investanalysis said:
Here's mine...:newhere:

Looking over the redacted case file, the facts hint at the actions of an early-stage sexual sadistic killer. Chiefly, the strong indications that sexual assault was the motivator coupled with the taking of mementos; indications of planning/preparation (albeit disorganized in nature); the absence of typical robbery characteristics ; the bumbling killings and the seemingly rapid progression through the sexual component all seem to point to a “lust killer” who’s progressing from assailant to murderer. The very personal nature of the two items taken that were linked to Christine Walker seems to be very telling. The majorette uniform and wedding certificate are items that have sentimental value, but no appreciable monetary value (and carried the heavy cost of risk of prosecution, if caught with them). Items of this nature, taken during commission of a sexually violent crime are almost always taken for one reason, the offender wants to relive the crime (or at least the portion of the crime that provides the euphoria/emotional release). Sexual sadistic killers (SSKs) take items that invoke the strongest nostalgia of their act. SSKs that attack victims of convenience (or surrogates for the object of their obsession) tend to take items closely linked to the victim and the crime (e.g. undergarments, jewelry worn by the victim during the crime, etc.). In this case, items taken that were linked to Christine Walker were independent of the crime, indicating that the killer’s intensive emotional build-up and attachment to the victim occurred prior to the crime, probably when she would have been routinely seen wearing the majorette uniform. The Disorganized Asocial Murderer variety of the SSK is characterized by strong feelings of inadequacy and seeing the objects of their obsession as “unobtainable objects”. Fixation on a female can easily be escalated when observing her in her most socially successful setting (further driving feelings of inadequacy by seeming more “unobtainable”). Christine Walker had often recounted, to her friends/family, fond times of being a majorette and was even reserving that uniform for her daughter, indicating that this was a socially progressive time for her. It’s also noteworthy that the uniform was stored in a cedar chest, out of plain view. And, the house seemed “in order” to investigators, indicating no visual evidence of rummaging. This suggests a level of focus, either in searching for that item that meant a lot to him or in knowing where it was kept and selectively retrieving it. The selection of the wedding certificate is also intriguing, given the gender roles in 1959. As the male was commonly seen as the dominant/superior component to the relationship, the killer could easily have seen the certificate as something of a “title of ownership” for Christine Walker, driving him to take it to affirm, in his own mind, his psychological possession of her. This crime also shows probability of planning, as the killer arrived at the Walker residence with a gun, on an evening just before Cliff Walker was going hunting and appears to have been on foot (less convenient, but more versatile/lower visibility for access and fleeing). There was also repetition and structured thought. All of the victims were shot in the head (initial shot above the hair line for all except Cliff Walker). The scene was partially altered in an apparent attempt to cover up or disguise the crime. Specifically, the bed was covered with bed-cloths hiding blood stains; Christine Walker’s legs were wiped and bloody clothing (possibly used as rags to wipe off) was bagged and discarded at another location. Although planning seems to have been an element, the crime scene clearly shows a disorganized nature. The blitz attack, lack of physical-restraint usage, opportunistic action and application of brute force, rather than coercion, are all classic disorganized assailant behaviors. Investigators all but concluded that the crime was initiated by a blitz attack on Christine Walker. Bruising on the arm and contusions on the cheek & forehead are indicative of brute-force submission. There was no indication of restraint usage reported, either from investigators or the medical examiner. The killer showed opportunistic tendencies by using readily available materials for everything except the shootings (nearby clothing/blanket for wiping up; using the closest bed for the assault, rather than moving her to the martial bed to enforce sexual dominance; bathtub drowning the girl, including the use of a sock to act as a drain plug). The method of the killings also indicates that the killer was inexperienced at this point. The selection of a gun is almost always driven by a mechanical desire for efficiency. Yet, a 22-caliber gun with short rounds is the least reliable percussion-cap selection. This proved to be true in this case, as the first round fired at Christine Walker’s and the son’s heads ricocheted without penetrating. While a lucky single shot to Cliff Walker’s head hit a weak point, just below the eye socket, and sufficiently damaged the brain to induce quick death, the other three victims were not so fortunate. The last indication that this may be a cross-over killing of a SSK is the apparently rapid progression through the sexual assault. Based on the investigator’s timeline, the killer didn’t have much more than 15-20 minutes to attack, assault & kill Christine Walker and possibly perform some post-event activities (retrieving mementos, cleaning/covering up). And, the clothing was disheveled, but not removed. Experienced SSKs have tendencies towards more planning, more organization and, most always, prolonged & more intense sexual assault and/or killing scenarios.

The mechanical and callous nature of the killings seems to hold clues to the killer’s mindset as well. The killer chose the systematic use of a gun over emotion-engaging methods, such as stabbing or strangulation (even when the ammunition was suspected to have been use up). This points to a purely capture-preventative measure, rather than an objective of the criminal act. Even drowning is a more aloof killing method, particularly for a male growing up in a rural and/or farming community where drowning of smaller/manageable animals is sometime viewed as an “acceptable” method of euthanasia. The killing of small children is highly unusual. Even in the realm of homicidal psychopaths, murdering children is taboo; and the younger they are, the stronger the taboo (this was even more true in 1959 society). For this killer to murder two young children, when it’s not fulfilling some desire, he would have to have a strong dissociation with society and minimal or no ability to empathize. The killer most likely thought that the kids could identify him, either because of a lack of understanding of early childhood retention & recall or possibly because they would know him by name.

Also noteworthy is the location that the bloody clothing was dumped. The clothing was found in an out-building, located just under two miles, directly west of the Walker residence and approximately a half mile east of the intersection of Highway 41 and Bay street. Present day, this location is approximately where residential transitions to business. If this was the same in 1959, this may indicate that the killer’s vehicle was parked at a closed business or on a vacant lot. This would allow for a reasonable hike through the woods/undergrowth to the Walker residence without being observed on the desolate portion of the road on which the Walkers lived.

If the non-redacted Walker case file also points toward a disorganized asocial sexual sadist, he would likely have attended Arcadia High School in the early 1950’s and would have been raised in very dysfunctional (likely abusive) household. He would also be of below-average to average intelligence and would be a social outcast; thought of as weird or odd, but perceived as generally harmless (except possibly when under the influence of alcohol or enraged). If he follows “typical” patterns, he would have moved away shortly after the murders. He would also continue to sexually assault women and may kill to elude capture (but, likely with a more powerful gun). And, he would introduce more organized control measures, such as restraints, coercion and selecting more controllable environments for commission of the crime.
:takeoff:
Click to expand...


Welcome to Websleuths, Investanalysis!

I fully agree with your assessment. It seems spot on to me.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

DNASolves

Who is Fairfield County Jane Doe (1993)?

Members online

... and 177 more.
Total: 696 (members: 178, guests: 518)

Online statistics

Members online
178
Guests online
518
Total visitors
696
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
608,292
Messages
18,237,442
Members
234,334
Latest member
ZanziBee
Back
Top