FL - Dawn Brancheau, Female Trainer Killed at Shamu Stadium

[Kimberlyd125]

...maybe that's the reason for the attack. This was not the first attack that resulted in death or near death for that matter. I wonder how many law suits will be filed by traumatized audience members, particularly parents of children. They don't have any warning signs posted that they may witness an attack or killing but SeaWorld knew Tilly had a history of violence. In fact, it is my understanding that one of the terms of his sale to SeaWorld was that he not be placed in shows.

IMO

IMO just like trainers know the risk of attack, people who go to SeaWorld should also know that there is risk of an attack between an orca and a human. Attacks have happened before.

That's like saying audience members at other types of entertainment shows where accidents happen should or could sue.

Here are some examples...
1) at a race where a driver hit a wall and died
2) at a rodeo where a bullrider was killed by a bull
3) at an air show where 2 planes collided in mid air and killed the pilots
4) at a baseball game where a person is hit in the head with a foul ball and dies.

I mean, the list could go on and on. And I'm sure the people who witnessed those things were traumatized too.

As far as the fact Tili was not to be placed in shows, I think what was meant by that was not in shows where the trainers were in the water with him. Like swimming with him. This trainer made a mistake and got too close.


JMO

 

[jon_burrows]

To me, blaiming it on her ponytail seems like some weird excuse. She was in the shallow part of the pool (the slide-out) playing with him. I don't see why whale couldn't grab her arm, or leg, and drag her in just the same.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/26/eveningnews/main6248241.shtml

I think it's an excuse too.

Here's a link to view some pics of Tilly. One trainer appears to be stepping on his pectoral flipper. Another kissing/hugging him and yet another on his knees right next to Tilly. I wonder what the special protocol was...no swimming but you can stand in the water next to him.

http://www.orcahome.de/tillikum.htm

 

[Penelope]

BBM

That is NOT what I said. I don't think they are abused. JMO
As far as the teacher thing...IMO that is so off base as to anything I have said I don't know how to respond.

I guess it all depends on one's definition of "abuse." In my opinion, the whales in captivity at SeaWorld are being abused, especially Tilly. As paraphrased from a posting by jon_burrows - they are swimming in a concrete tank that is too small, in chemically treated water, in their own urine and are expected to perform tricks to get food. They are subjected to all kinds of noises, music, etc. and the concrete muffles, distorts or destroys their sonar capacity. In addition, as the "breeding stud" of the SeaWorld dynasty, Tiilly is put in a tank with a female whale to get him excited, then they extract his semen and send it out to other aquariums for breeding purposes. He can spend days in an isolation tank.

He has been subjected to this for 27 years -- and now has the reputation as a "killer" killer whale. IMO- Enough is enough. Even if he only lives a few years outside of captivity, at least he'll get to swim straight in one direction for more than a few feet without having to circle round.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

The pictures of the trainers by Tili you will see they are on a platform. Very hard for a whale to do much on there except maybe grab a ponytail or an arm or leg.
I'm sure the trainers are aware of this and watch the actions of the whale closely. IMO

In the trainer's case that was killed, her ponytail touched his face and went into the water. The whale grabbed it. The guy that has trained most of the trainers and who has worked with whales for years said that was a mistake on the trainers part.

He no longer works for SeaWorld so I don't know what he would gain for putting false info out there or making excuses.

 

[jon_burrows]

IMO just like trainers know the risk of attack, people who go to SeaWorld should also know that there is risk of an attack between an orca and a human. Attacks have happened before.

That's like saying audience members at other types of entertainment shows where accidents happen should or could sue.

Here are some examples...
1) at a race where a driver hit a wall and died
2) at a rodeo where a bullrider was killed by a bull
3) at an air show where 2 planes collided in mid air and killed the pilots
4) at a baseball game where a person is hit in the head with a foul ball and dies.

I mean, the list could go on and on. And I'm sure the people who witnessed those things were traumatized too.

As far as the fact Tili was not to be placed in shows, I think what was meant by that was not in shows where the trainers were in the water with him. Like swimming with him. This trainer made a mistake and got too close.


JMO

"Should know" and "knowing" are two different things. I was shocked to see pictures of trainers putting children on the backs of killer whales. Both the trainer and the parents should have known the dangers.

In the report I heard Tilly was supposed to be for breeding purposes only, no shows.

 

[LinasK]

Why was he participating in shows if no one was supposed to be in the tank with him?
She was doing it out in the open, and I sincerely doubt Sea World didn't know that she was getting in the tank with him.

Exactly! Keep this whale if you must as a stud, in a larger enclosure or release him, but NO WAY in H*ll should he have been allowed to perform in shows with trainers given his known track record in the deaths of two other people- especially after the first death- of the trainer- of which he was implicated an active participant in. He and the other whales used her as a play toy and ripped her clothes off!

 

[LinasK]

Because the shows he was involved in were not the type you see with the trainers in the tank. The shows he was involved in were hand signal shows from the deck.
Sea World did know she was not getting in the tank with him, she didn't get into the tank with him, she was pulled into the tank.

ETA: Because of the incident in which Tillikum was involved with two other whales in which his trainer was killed in 1991 trainers at Sea World do not do any water work with him, water work with him would be hard anyway because of his size.
Link: http://www.orca-spirit.co.uk/1210.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*

This trainer was NOT pulled into the tank with him, she violated protocol by laying down on a knee-deep level shelf with him.

 

[Melly53]

I guess it all depends on one's definition of "abuse." In my opinion, the whales in captivity at SeaWorld are being abused, especially Tilly. As paraphrased from a posting by jon_burrows - they are swimming in a concrete tank that is too small, in chemically treated water, in their own urine and are expected to perform tricks to get food. They are subjected to all kinds of noises, music, etc. and the concrete muffles, distorts or destroys their sonar capacity. In addition, as the "breeding stud" of the SeaWorld dynasty, Tiilly is put in a tank with a female whale to get him excited, then they extract his semen and send it out to other aquariums for breeding purposes. He can spend days in an isolation tank.

He has been subjected to this for 27 years -- and now has the reputation as a "killer" killer whale. IMO- Enough is enough. Even if he only lives a few years outside of captivity, at least he'll get to swim straight in one direction for more than a few feet without having to circle round.

Outside of captivity he would not survive beyond about 3 months... only as long as it would take for him to slowly starve to death. To set this magnificent animal free in the ocean would be an absolute death sentence. They learned this with Keiko.

For those interested here is some excellent aerial footage of SeaWorld Orlando. It gives a much better idea of the size of the pools and area they live in...over 7 million gallons worth and you can see a few whales swimming around. Not exactly the size of the ocean but not exactly a bathtub either.IMO

http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/aerial-view-of-shamu-stadium-at-seaworld-18330171

 

[jon_burrows]

The pictures of the trainers by Tili you will see they are on a platform. Very hard for a whale to do much on there except maybe grab a ponytail or an arm or leg.
I'm sure the trainers are aware of this and watch the actions of the whale closely. IMO

In the trainer's case that was killed, her ponytail touched his face and went into the water. The whale grabbed it. The guy that has trained most of the trainers and who has worked with whales for years said that was a mistake on the trainers part.

He no longer works for SeaWorld so I don't know what he would gain for putting false info out there or making excuses.

BBM-I disagree. If a whale gets a hold of a ponytail, arm, leg, or any body part, you're at their mercy. That's exactly what happened to the trainer that was killed. The trainers in the pictures were in the water, he could have easily grabbed them and pulled them in the water.

That guy can't read Tilly's mind or intent any more than we can. Wild animals are unpredictable, period. To assume one can explain why they did something is guess work at best.

IMO

 

[Kimberlyd125]

This trainer was NOT pulled into the tank with him, she violated protocol by laying down on a knee-deep level shelf with him.

He did pull her into the tank from the platform...

http://www.wptv.com/news/state/stor...eau-shamu-kills-t/PKPh1TYBekWch4Rr7RyBjQ.cspx

Snipped:
ORLANDO, FL (AP) -- A veteran SeaWorld trainer was leisurely rubbing a killer whale from a poolside platform when the 12,000-pound creature reached up, grabbed her ponytail in its mouth and dragged her underwater. Despite workers rushing to help, the trainer was killed.

Horrified visitors who had stuck around after a noontime show watched the animal charge through the pool with the trainer in its jaws


BBM

 

[kgeaux]

Oh for crying out loud. He also had marks on him consistent with the whale biting him. If the whale wouldn't let him get out of the pool then he would eventually die for hypothermia or drowning, would he not?

It was noted that the whale likely played with the man's body, mistaking it for a toy. The marks on the body were likely made after the man's death.

 

[kgeaux]

To me, blaiming it on her ponytail seems like some weird excuse. She was in the shallow part of the pool (the slide-out) playing with him. I don't see why whale couldn't grab her arm, or leg, and drag her in just the same.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/26/eveningnews/main6248241.shtml

She wasn't allowed even the shallow part of the water with Tilly. She broke protocol, and it unfortunately resulted in her death. I can understand that a ponytail might look remarkably like a fish in the water.....and the orca grabbed her hair, thinking it was food and then thrashed his "food" around, then that means he did not deliberately cause the death of the trainer.

 

[Melly53]

"Should know" and "knowing" are two different things. I was shocked to see pictures of trainers putting children on the backs of killer whales. Both the trainer and the parents should have known the dangers.

In the report I heard Tilly was supposed to be for breeding purposes only, no shows.

SeaWorld was later issued a permit that allowed him to perform. I will see if I can find the link on it.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

It won't shock me one bit to see a ton of lawsuits filed by audience members. But, I don't think they will go anywhere.

IMO this is a sue happy country anyway.

IMO the audience members went there to see a show with an animal who everyone knows has the ability to kill (killer whale). I would hate to see what happened but I know it could happen, It's happened before. If I choose to go, I risk seeing that.

 

[jon_burrows]

He did pull her into the tank from the platform...

http://www.wptv.com/news/state/stor...eau-shamu-kills-t/PKPh1TYBekWch4Rr7RyBjQ.cspx

Snipped:
ORLANDO, FL (AP) -- A veteran SeaWorld trainer was leisurely rubbing a killer whale from a poolside platform when the 12,000-pound creature reached up, grabbed her ponytail in its mouth and dragged her underwater. Despite workers rushing to help, the trainer was killed.

Horrified visitors who had stuck around after a noontime show watched the animal charge through the pool with the trainer in its jaws


BBM

In the video that I saw that was supposedly taken right before the attack, she was in very shallow water just like the pictures of other trainers that I posted a few posts back. It looked more like a ramp, like the one the whales slide up on so the audience can see them outside the water.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I think that's what the article is calling a poolside platform. It has water over it and the whales slide up onto it.
From what I'm reading, that's what the trainer was on.

I was responding to a post that said she was not pulled into the tank. She was.

 

[jon_burrows]

I guess it all depends on one's definition of "abuse." In my opinion, the whales in captivity at SeaWorld are being abused, especially Tilly. As paraphrased from a posting by jon_burrows - they are swimming in a concrete tank that is too small, in chemically treated water, in their own urine and are expected to perform tricks to get food. They are subjected to all kinds of noises, music, etc. and the concrete muffles, distorts or destroys their sonar capacity. In addition, as the "breeding stud" of the SeaWorld dynasty, Tiilly is put in a tank with a female whale to get him excited, then they extract his semen and send it out to other aquariums for breeding purposes. He can spend days in an isolation tank.

He has been subjected to this for 27 years -- and now has the reputation as a "killer" killer whale. IMO- Enough is enough. Even if he only lives a few years outside of captivity, at least he'll get to swim straight in one direction for more than a few feet without having to circle round.

I can't find the link now but I read that most of his teeth were missing because he was biting on the bars to his tank. They have to clean his mouth with something similar to a water pick every day to avoid infection. I hope it isn't true...the poor guy has been through so much.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Since we know the trainer was "laying" next to the whale with her hair in a long ponytail and the whale grabbed the ponytail, that backs up what the guy said in the article I linked earlier that it was trainer error.

 

[LinasK]

I think that's what the article is calling a poolside platform. It has water over it and the whales slide up onto it.
From what I'm reading, that's what the trainer was on.

I was responding to a post that said she was not pulled into the tank. She was.

Since we know the trainer was "laying" next to the whale with her hair in a long ponytail and the whale grabbed the ponytail, that backs up what the guy said in the article I linked earlier that it was trainer error.

Yes, that's correct, that's the kind of platform it was, in shallow water. I've been to SeaWorld in San Diego many times in my life and seen the Shamu show many times. It's not like she was pulled over a wall or such, which is what was implied.

IMO just like trainers know the risk of attack, people who go to SeaWorld should also know that there is risk of an attack between an orca and a human. Attacks have happened before.

That's like saying audience members at other types of entertainment shows where accidents happen should or could sue.

Here are some examples...
1) at a race where a driver hit a wall and died
2) at a rodeo where a bullrider was killed by a bull
3) at an air show where 2 planes collided in mid air and killed the pilots
4) at a baseball game where a person is hit in the head with a foul ball and dies.

I mean, the list could go on and on. And I'm sure the people who witnessed those things were traumatized too.

As far as the fact Tili was not to be placed in shows, I think what was meant by that was not in shows where the trainers were in the water with him. Like swimming with him. This trainer made a mistake and got too close.


JMO

We go to see the whales jumping and to get splashed, that's entertainment, watching someone get killed is not- that's mental anguish, and not what I expect to see when I pay to go to Sea World.

 

[jon_burrows]

It was noted that the whale likely played with the man's body, mistaking it for a toy. The marks on the body were likely made after the man's death.

This whale has been in captivity for 27 years. He knows the difference between a toy and a human. IMO