GUILTY FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen #19

[Weki]

I believe that poster meant that Wendi changed her profile pic the night before the murder to a more flattering pic where she looked better …but the boys didn’t look better.

Yes this was a nice little detail from the Jeff Lacasse interview. He said she previously had a pic looking like a mom with 2 kids and the day or week before the murder she changed her pic to a sexier one that he likened to a Victoria’s Secret model. I really don’t see what is so attractive about Wendi. She looks pretty average to me. JMO

Go to 55:13:

 

[clearskies1]

I wonder if they know from the phone download whether Wendi accessed whats app the day of the murder. I know they can't get the substantive whats app messages -- just wondering if they can tell if she used that application that day.

 

[Luna20]

When I look at this map (and I know this area fairly well). I might believe that WA was simply snooping to see what DM was doing. I definitely do not believe that she was taking a shortcut nor do I believe she saw crime scene tape on Trescott Rd from Centerville Rd. Not possible. My problem with this route is the fact she turned around and went to the liquor store after seeing police cars. Afterwards, she went to gas up her car and drove off to have lunch with friends unconcerned that there were police cars at her ex husbands house. The very place her children spent the previous night. So, I don't buy her innocent act that a tree fell during an electrical storm that didn't exist.

Seeing anything going on near the location where the children spend time with the ex spouse should have prompted a reaction from the other spouse. I would have ran to find an officer to ask what was going on. It’s an instinctive response for a mother knowing that the children partially live there.

It could have have been a hostage situation, arson, search warrant, an arrest, robbery etc. I wouldn’t be going to lunch before finding some information on what occurred.

It’s the home of where the children will be going back to as per the domicile agreement so it’s necessary to find out what happened. It’s illogical to not have a reaction. That is going to be a problem for her.

 

[Luna20]

Some interesting side notes:

In Florida, there is no statute of limitation on Perjury in proceedings related to a capital offense.

Florida Criminal Statute of Limitation - Bryce A. Fetter

The statute of limitation is a time limitation on the State of Florida's ability to initiate a criminal prosecution. This limitation sets forth specific time periods within which a criminal prosecution must be initiated. If the state fails to bring a case within the specified time period, it...

brycefetter.com

In Florida, a defendant in aid and abetting can still be convicted even if he has no knowledge of the person who actually committed the principal offense...

....the principal need not be named or identified; it is necessary only that the offense was committed by somebody and that the defendant intentionally did an act to help in its commission

5.1 Aiding and Abetting | Model Jury Instructions

www.ce9.uscourts.gov

In Florida, the deliberate ignorance aspect is incorporated into Aiding and Abetting, as in:

The defendant’s deliberate ignorance of the actions taken by another person who commits a crime is sufficient to satisfy the knowledge required for the offense of aiding and abetting that crime

5.1 Aiding and Abetting | Model Jury Instructions

www.ce9.uscourts.gov

And deliberate ignorance can be applied when the underlying criminal charge is a conspiracy charge....

United States v. Ramos-Atondo, 732 F.3d 1113, 1120, 1124 (9th Cir. 2013) (deliberate ignorance instruction may be given in conspiracy case)

5.8 Deliberate Ignorance | Model Jury Instructions

www.ce9.uscourts.gov

So there would appear to be a number of ways that charges other than those brought against KM and CA, can be brought against WA. And its possible that the indictment for DA may be modified somewhat....because the A & A charge can be so all encompassing, and at her age, any longer interval behind bars is the same as LWOP.

JMO, IANAL, and I would not be wanting to convince a jury that one defendant was a "conspirator" and another was only an "abettor" in the same conspiracy oriented crime.

How would they know where to find Dan if WA hadn’t told them of his whereabouts? She certainly didn’t want the children to be home and made sure that they weren’t.

She is the only one who knew 100% where the children were. Not at home sick, not on a field trip, not with their grandparents, not at a friends house. No where outside of her control. She had that very zipped up.

 

[Zedzded]

As I've said before, there is no logical explanation for her route other than that she was was planning to drive either by or to the house, and I'm going with to.

And WA stuffed up with her excuse for driving down Trescott. She could have said something like she enjoyed the drive, it's a scenic route etc instead she said her sense of direction was poor and she got lost.....

 

[Zedzded]

Seeing anything going on near the location where the children spend time with the ex spouse should have prompted a reaction from the other spouse. I would have ran to find an officer to ask what was going on. It’s an instinctive response for a mother knowing that the children partially live there.

It could have have been a hostage situation, arson, search warrant, an arrest, robbery etc. I wouldn’t be going to lunch before finding some information on what occurred.

It’s the home of where the children will be going back to as per the domicile agreement so it’s necessary to find out what happened. It’s illogical to not have a reaction. That is going to be a problem for her.

100% - she's dug herself a massive hold admitting she saw the police tape. If she goes to trial, she's going to have to try and explain why you she didn't call anyone after seeing all those first responders outside her ex's house. That is going to bury her.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

Just reading up on Denise William's appeal, which overturned her first degree murder conviction as a principal but affirmed her conviction for conspiracy to commit first degree murder. She was also originally charged with being an accessory after the fact but that charge was dismissed by the trial judge - because the jury had already found her guilty as a principal. The decision is here:

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

This decision is an excellent guide for why Wendi will never be charged as a principal unless there is new and significant evidence of her active involvement. There is a strong case that Wendi could be convicted of conspiracy, however.

To recap the evidence against Denise Williams:
1. Denise and Brian Winchester discussed and planned murdering her husband for over a year
2. They made several plans, including a staged armed robbery at husbands office but eventually settled on fake accidental drowning while duck hunting;
3. On the day Mike was to be murdered, Denise got "cold feet" and forbade her husband from going hunting with Brian (to get murdered)
4. Over the next week, Denise and Brian met several times and re-confirmed that her husband needed to get killed. And it had to happen before an upcoming wedding anniversary and before one life insurance policy expired.
5. Denise allows her husband to go hunting with Brian the following weekend knowing he would be murdered. She then made herself an alibi.
6. Denise filed for life insurance 19 days after he went missing. She and Brian conspired to plant evidence at the lake to throw off investigators and speed up the investigation so she could get a death certificate and life insurance.
7. 10 months after the murder, she threatened her deceased husbands mother that if she pushed for an investigation or media coverage, she would never see her granddaughter. She made good on this threat 4 years when the grandmother would not relent.
8. When Brian Winchester went to jail for kidnapping her years later, she asked a friend to get a message to him in jail that she was "not talking to police".

The State argued that Denise making sure Mike Williams went on the hunting trip was an overt act. The jury agreed. The appellate judges disagreed.

 

[Zedzded]

As I always say, her family would never have taken out the children's father without her consent. Never. I hope that somehow they find WhatsApp messages that they can get to show she knew. We know Donna knew to delete her messages, but hopefully they're still in the cloud.

As far as I know, they were mostly using Whatsapp, but not exclusively. They were also texting using traditional SMS. I'm sure Donna would have deleted her SMSs, but did she know they can be recovered, even with a new phone? WA thought the police had planted a physical bug(microchip) actually in her phone... so that's the level of technology literacy we're dealing with. To ensure your tracks are 100% covered you have to be relatively technically savvy and they're not.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

As I always say, her family would never have taken out the children's father without her consent. Never.

Totally agree.

There is a camp of people out there (including Steven Epstein) who believe that Wendi not doing any of the crazy things in Donnas emails a few weeks before they would likely become evidence in the divorce trial, is somehow suggestive that Wendi was not in agreement with doing extreme things. And therefore that Donna and Charlie went behind her back.

Donna is pleading with Wendi to do all kinds of things, but the decision clearly rests with Wendi. Donna is not going behind her back to negotiate with Dan or offer bribes or threaten religious conversion. The ideas might be coming from Donna but the final decision maker is always Wendi. Whether its buying a house, dating Dave, taking a job or murdering Dan - Wendi just "needs a little encouraging" to come to the right decision.

Its ludicrous that Donna would have Dan Markel murdered without Wendi's full blessing. To believe that, you would also have to believe that Donna took this massive gamble that 1) Wendi would not immediately or eventually turn her and Charlie into police (perhaps unlikely) but also 2) would not completely cut Donna/Harvey and Charlie off from her and her boys forever (much more likely, if Wendi truly had no involvement but suspected her family of going behind her back to kill her kids Dad). Instead, Wendi cuts off the Markels from their grandchildren when a couple Latin Kings get arrested. This riddle solves itself.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

On Steven Epstein - I have been extremely hard on him because of his interview with AsianLegalFocus where he opines that Wendi is not guilty and provides his rationale for that conclusion. As @amicuscurie has mentioned, that was a really unfortunate interview and likely cost him an incredible amount of momentum and book sales.

The really weird part is - Esptein does not take any position on Wendi's guilt or innocence in his book. And in fact, his book is excellent and should be required reading for anyone interested in this case. Lots of great material in there about all the cast of characters - Dan and Wendi in childhood, college, dating and marriage. Tuto, Tato, Katie - all the lawyers. Some great information and details on Charlie's arrest.

 

[Sustained]

How would they know where to find Dan if WA hadn’t told them of his whereabouts? She certainly didn’t want the children to be home and made sure that they weren’t.

She is the only one who knew 100% where the children were. Not at home sick, not on a field trip, not with their grandparents, not at a friends house. No where outside of her control. She had that very zipped up.

This ! And this is exactly why she said she wasn't able to turn down Trescott right off Centerville and not up by DM's house. GC would've have nailed her with why didn't you get out and ask questions.

Busted !

ETA - sorry, didn't see ZedZded's response a few posts up. Need more coffee ...

 

[Missyrocks5]

As far as I know, they were mostly using Whatsapp, but not exclusively. They were also texting using traditional SMS. I'm sure Donna would have deleted her SMSs, but did she know they can be recovered, even with a new phone? WA thought the police had planted a physical bug(microchip) actually in her phone... so that's the level of technology literacy we're dealing with. To ensure your tracks are 100% covered you have to be relatively technically savvy and they're not.

Here is where i remind that WA dated Dave. Dave used to work for the NSA & would be a walking encyclopedia of digital footprint retrieval. How convenient for her to have such a person at her disposal who, completely speculating here, could unwittingly provide her a roadmap for her and her family to cover their footprints.

Now maybe that never happened, maybe you can't truly erase your regular texts, etc. But I don't discount that knowing what we know about her, would anyone put it past her to pick a guy like this to date to help her. He may not have known that he inadvertently gave her helpful information, but I'm willing to bet she pumped him for any bit of information she could with her head tilt & doe eyed questioning.

 

[amicuscurie]

Here is where i remind that WA dated Dave. Dave used to work for the NSA & would be a walking encyclopedia of digital footprint retrieval. How convenient for her to have such a person at her disposal who, completely speculating here, could unwittingly provide her a roadmap for her and her family to cover their footprints.

Now maybe that never happened, maybe you can't truly erase your regular texts, etc. But I don't discount that knowing what we know about her, would anyone put it past her to pick a guy like this to date to help her. He may not have known that he inadvertently gave her helpful information, but I'm willing to bet she pumped him for any bit of information she could with her head tilt & doe eyed questioning.

She didn’t meet him until after the murder, though. I don’t know how much he could e helped.

 

[Knitpicker]

Totally agree.

There is a camp of people out there (including Steven Epstein) who believe that Wendi not doing any of the crazy things in Donnas emails a few weeks before they would likely become evidence in the divorce trial, is somehow suggestive that Wendi was not in agreement with doing extreme things. And therefore that Donna and Charlie went behind her back.

Donna is pleading with Wendi to do all kinds of things, but the decision clearly rests with Wendi. Donna is not going behind her back to negotiate with Dan or offer bribes or threaten religious conversion. The ideas might be coming from Donna but the final decision maker is always Wendi. Whether its buying a house, dating Dave, taking a job or murdering Dan - Wendi just "needs a little encouraging" to come to the right decision.

Its ludicrous that Donna would have Dan Markel murdered without Wendi's full blessing. To believe that, you would also have to believe that Donna took this massive gamble that 1) Wendi would not immediately or eventually turn her and Charlie into police (perhaps unlikely) but also 2) would not completely cut Donna/Harvey and Charlie off from her and her boys forever (much more likely, if Wendi truly had no involvement but suspected her family of going behind her back to kill her kids Dad). Instead, Wendi cuts off the Markels from their grandchildren when a couple Latin Kings get arrested. This riddle solves itself.

agree. And the most damning evidence imo is Wendis own words of NEVER talking to any family member about Dans murder in the last 9 years bc she was “advised“ by her attorney not to. Not even ONE conversation or comment about the murdered father of her children!

So, also, has she always had the same attorney? Because she uses a singular form.

 

[dizzychick]

Agree, certainly could have been a CA/WA whats app contact. But she had the "last minute" lunch at 1pm so she would naturally be leaving her home around 12:30 if she was going to do a liquor run first. Lots of smoke around Wendi -- a question of whether the State thinks they have enough to convict. JMO.

I always thought the drive down the old homestead was to okay the release of funds.

 

[Knitpicker]

Here is where i remind that WA dated Dave. Dave used to work for the NSA & would be a walking encyclopedia of digital footprint retrieval. How convenient for her to have such a person at her disposal who, completely speculating here, could unwittingly provide her a roadmap for her and her family to cover their footprints.

Now maybe that never happened, maybe you can't truly erase your regular texts, etc. But I don't discount that knowing what we know about her, would anyone put it past her to pick a guy like this to date to help her. He may not have known that he inadvertently gave her helpful information, but I'm willing to bet she pumped him for any bit of information she could with her head tilt & doe eyed questioning.

Dave would be part of the conspiracy. I doubt that he would help her delete evidence.

 

[Missyrocks5]

She didn’t meet him until after the murder, though. I don’t know how much he could e helped.

LE didn't get the phones of C & D until after their arrests, 2022-2023. That leaves all that time in between 2014-2022 to do whatever.

 

[Missyrocks5]

Dave would be part of the conspiracy. I doubt that he would help her delete evidence.

Nope. I'm specifically saying he wouldn't know that he did. That's why I said unwittingly. I don't think at all he had any part in anything. He was dating her likely not thinking she had any part in anything. I'm saying as manipulative as she is, that we all know, does anyone Not think that she pumped him for information to make it sound casual that she was just asking a question for some other reason, with head tilt and doe eyes.

That's exactly my point. She would be getting info from him without him realizing that she is asking for herself. He wouldn't know.

 

[Knitpicker]

LE didn't get the phones of C & D until after their arrests, 2022-2023. That leaves all that time in between 2014-2022 to do whatever.

Some think Wendi was already cultivating the relationship with Dave when she visited Miami. Jeffrey mentions that he suspected that there was someone in Miami W was seeing, the last 2 weeks she was there. He mentioned that on the stand or in his interviews

 

[Knitpicker]

Nope. I'm specifically saying he wouldn't know that he did. That's why I said unwittingly. I don't think at all he had any part in anything. He was dating her likely not thinking she had any part in anything. I'm saying as manipulative as she is, that we all know, does anyone Not think that she pumped him for information to make it sound casual that she was just asking a question for some other reason, with head tilt and doe eyes.

That's exactly my point. She would be getting info from him without him realizing that she is asking for herself. He wouldn't know.

Yes, I had thought that also, but he would have to actually work on her computer (hard drive) to do what would be needed to do to permanently delete files, right?