FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #21

[IQuestion]

Snipped for focus:" Context is everything." I agree. Okay, I relistened/reread...but still resent having to go through that whole transcript and recording again...ugh.(I swear it is the last time, lol.) I have to agree...he does jump in and out of character. Sometimes speaking for himself, sometimes for (SG) bad guys, sometimes as to what LE might be doing/thinking. And wow...he is a thinker! He thinks he has every scenario and every angle covered...even then, back on April 20,2016. But, he didn't know he was being recorderd, LE had already figured out the rental cars info and had a cooperating witness/LR.
CA does repeat himself a lot. (Does he just go to restaurants to talk? Put some food in his mouth pahleeez!)
****I don't understand the last part DA hadn't told HA? She didn't tell him about the bump or she didn't tell him or she didn't want to tell him until she had CA in the same room to mitigate HA's reaction? Or not upset HA on a work day? HA knew something...I'm going by another restaurant (Matsuri?) recording when HA says, "I didn't think they were that smart."

 

[Zedzded]

Snipped for focus:" Context is everything." I agree. Okay, I relistened/reread...but still resent having to go through that whole transcript and recording again...ugh.(I swear it is the last time, lol.) I have to agree...he does jump in and out of character. Sometimes speaking for himself, sometimes for (SG) bad guys, sometimes as to what LE might be doing/thinking. And wow...he is a thinker! He thinks he has every scenario and every angle covered...even then, back on April 20,2016. But, he didn't know he was being recorderd, LE had already figured out the rental cars info and had a cooperating witness/LR.
CA does repeat himself a lot. (Does he just go to restaurants to talk? Put some food in his mouth pahleeez!)
****I don't understand the last part DA hadn't told HA? She didn't tell him about the bump or she didn't tell him or she didn't want to tell him until she had CA in the same room to mitigate HA's reaction? Or not upset HA on a work day? HA knew something...I'm going by another restaurant (Matsuri?) recording when HA says, "I didn't think they were that smart."

I get the impression HA knew about the hit before it happened, but told DA and CA to limit what information they gave him, so they drip fed him information and kept other stuff from him. I think he was perhaps a bit aware of the consequences if things went wrong.

 

[IQuestion]

I get the impression HA knew about the hit before it happened, but told DA and CA to limit what information they gave him, so they drip fed him information and kept other stuff from him. I think he was perhaps a bit aware of the consequences if things went wrong.

Zedzded, I think a lot of people share your same impression.

 

[cottonweaver]

Snipped for focus:" Context is everything." I agree. Okay, I relistened/reread...but still resent having to go through that whole transcript and recording again...ugh.(I swear it is the last time, lol.) I have to agree...he does jump in and out of character. Sometimes speaking for himself, sometimes for (SG) bad guys, sometimes as to what LE might be doing/thinking. And wow...he is a thinker! He thinks he has every scenario and every angle covered...even then, back on April 20,2016. But, he didn't know he was being recorderd, LE had already figured out the rental cars info and had a cooperating witness/LR.
CA does repeat himself a lot. (Does he just go to restaurants to talk? Put some food in his mouth pahleeez!)
****I don't understand the last part DA hadn't told HA? She didn't tell him about the bump or she didn't tell him or she didn't want to tell him until she had CA in the same room to mitigate HA's reaction? Or not upset HA on a work day? HA knew something...I'm going by another restaurant (Matsuri?) recording when HA says, "I didn't think they were that smart."

re what the wire-taps reveal in terms of what Harvey didn't know is bound to be spun by the defense as exculpatory. ( If not at DA's trial, then certainly in event of any future prosecutions)

I trust Georgia has all of this covered.
That she can draw a line between
- 2013 texts claiming issues with blood pressure ( HA's reactions during litigation)
- 2016 wiretap calls about not informing HA just yet ( about the bump blackmail)
- potential witnesses who can testify to HA's tendency to react emotionally & violently to crises ( past TPD tips. Demko's emphasis on Harvey's anger 2012/13 )
- speculative theories about the family dynamic ( CA messed-up again, couldn't pull it off but DA had assured the family that he could manage this)
- HA's reactions on the Matsuri tape, even though not much was audible

personally, I think Harvey knew a lot of the detailed planning but because we can't see it, it's easy to we assume he didn't.

----
and then, if and when Wendi's defense tries to play the same tune ( CA: 'Does Wendi know?' DA: 'Noooooooooooo')
- simple fact that she was a lawyer at the time the hit was being planned ( what her career meant to her vs risk. Need to scrupulously wall her off.)
- While HA's blood pressure & aneurysm are often referenced by D & C, there are crumbs out there which suggest that Wendi's mental health wasn't 100% robust. ( Yes I know that her med records won't be admissable but Demko & Lacasse both mentioned a flakiness pre murder as well as in the weeks running up to it. References from 2005 pre-engagement to DM, running through WA using a therapist in spring 2014)

 

[Knitpicker]

re what the wire-taps reveal in terms of what Harvey didn't know is bound to be spun by the defense as exculpatory. ( If not at DA's trial, then certainly in future prosecutions)

I trust Georgia has all of this covered.
That she can draw a line between
- 2013 texts claiming issues with blood pressure ( HA's reactions during litigation)
- 2016 wiretap calls about not informing HA just yet ( about the bump blackmail)
- potential witnesses who can testify to HA's tendency to react emotionally & violently to crises ( past TPD tips )
- speculative theories about the family dynamic ( CA messed-up again, couldn't pull it off but DA had assured the family that he could manage this)

and then, if and when Wendi's defense tries to play the same tune ( CA: 'Does Wendi know?' DA: 'Noooooooooooo')
- simple fact that she was a lawyer at the time the hit was being planned ( what her career meant to her vs risk. Need to scrupulously wall her off.)
- While HA's blood pressure & aneurysm are often referenced by D & C, there are crumbs out there which suggest that Wendi's mental health wasn't 100% robust. ( Yes I know that her med records won't be admissable but Demko & Lacasse both mentioned a flakiness pre murder as well as in the weeks running up to it. References from 2005 pre-engagement to DM, running through WA using a therapist in spring 2014)

It’s surprising HA trusted CA with this sceme. The parents had to know they couldn’t rely on him to pull it off. Thats assuming they are “normal parents” which we know to be otherwise.
Someone came on the L and C live trial coverage for C, and he seemed legit.
He was a neighbor of the A’s and said that D was always getting C out of trouble as a kid.
He interacted with people on the chat.Grew up across the street from the A’sin the cul de sac.
Said his own dad was a dentist in the town also. Seemed legit.
How would H trust C to make this work? Well it did for years.

H would def be livid hearing about the bump bc that would mean their plan didn’t work and they would be getting busted.

PS on that same coverage,someone else said she was a hygienist in Deerfield and was pretty vocal about her interactions with C in the office. It seems like that woman who was on STS.

 

[RickshawFan]

Her defense will be, "I'm a skinny, helpless old lady who simply did what my son told me to do." The prosecution will introduce her vicious emails, action at the bump, and the wiretaps to prove otherwise. Paraphrasing along the lines of "It is about you and me and this TV will cost 5 thousand dollars."
It will be an event if DA testifies on her behalf. Does anyone believe she can hold it together on cross?

As I look at the bump video, I would not have recognized DA in the woman she is today. She now looks much older than she is age wise. Back at the bump, she had vim and vigor, and she was well-kept. So, I don’t assume the jury would entirely go for a schtick about “she’s a little old lady”. Indeed, she might have come to her present look because she’s spent 10+ years executing a conspiracy to kill and its aftermath.

 

[amicuscurie]

Snipped for focus:" Context is everything." I agree. Okay, I relistened/reread...but still resent having to go through that whole transcript and recording again...ugh.(I swear it is the last time, lol.) I have to agree...he does jump in and out of character. Sometimes speaking for himself, sometimes for (SG) bad guys, sometimes as to what LE might be doing/thinking. And wow...he is a thinker! He thinks he has every scenario and every angle covered...even then, back on April 20,2016. But, he didn't know he was being recorderd, LE had already figured out the rental cars info and had a cooperating witness/LR.
CA does repeat himself a lot. (Does he just go to restaurants to talk? Put some food in his mouth pahleeez!)
****I don't understand the last part DA hadn't told HA? She didn't tell him about the bump or she didn't tell him or she didn't want to tell him until she had CA in the same room to mitigate HA's reaction? Or not upset HA on a work day? HA knew something...I'm going by another restaurant (Matsuri?) recording when HA says, "I didn't think they were that smart."

The Dolce Vita was the day after the bump. At that point, Charlie says Donna had not yet told Harvey. I’m assuming Charlie means she hadn’t yet told Harvey about the bump at that point; in one of the first bump calls, she says she doesn’t want to tell Harvey because he “flies off the handle.” Perhaps she didn’t want to tell Harvey without speaking with Charlie first and figuring out just how serious a problem they had.

At some point it appears that they did tell Harvey about the bump, as there was a meeting of all three of them by the pool area of the Icon; the feds were there but they couldn’t get anything on tape. The Matsuri meeting was sometime after that. There are also some calls where they discuss that Harvey is not taking the news well, and he couldn’t go into work. But, again, Dolce Vita is very early, just after the bump, at that point he has met with his mom and is now meeting with Katie. He says his mom hasn’t told his dad anything about this, presumably meaning the bump.

(When they may have told Harvey about the murder itself, and if he was involved from the beginning or if, as we see here, they didn’t involve him until they may have felt they had to, is another discussion).

 

[cottonweaver]

It’s surprising HA trusted CA with this sceme. The parents had to know they couldn’t rely on him to pull it off.
Someone came on the L and C live trial coverage for C, and he seemed legit.
He was a neighbor of the A’s and that’s D was always getting C out of trouble as a kid.
He interacted with people on the chat.Grew up across the street front he A’sin the cul de sac.
Said his own dad was a dentist int he town also. Seemed legit.
How would H trust C to make this work? Well it did for years.
Maybe C was a “mini me”of H.
He would def be livid hearing about the bump bc that would mean their plan didn’t work and they would be getting busted.

Sounds like the family who tipped off TPD ( screenshot of which was posted on WS - many threads back now. I might still have it on another device)

re

It’s surprising HA trusted CA with this sceme. The parents had to know they couldn’t rely on him to pull it off.

Maybe a niggling doubt from Dad but my guess is that Wendi was more concerned. ( Just because imo she is more detail oriented. I think after the first arrests, it might explain some of the fall-outs reported between CA and WA)

imo..... a whole family of narcissists so everything they do is THE BEST

and because they're so enmeshed the Adelsons are the ultimate echo chamber of arrogance and self-reinforcement. Insecure Charlie is always so sure, doesn't question his own assumptions. ( that's also across every jail call imo)

It would take too long to give specifics for each time every Adelson made a comment to support that opinion but whether it's wrt their planning skills, their knowledge of criminal law, their estimation of their street-smarts, their general intelligence, their physical attractiveness or their claims about their choices of legal rep etc etc ( One recent example of the latter - jailcall claims that Dubin is the best in the USA. Nobody could have done more than Dan. Georgia couldn't have had the smarts to write that closing herself, she had to have had whole teams to assist. )
Harvey Masturi : 'I didn't think they were that smart' ( they - LE)

Hypothetically speaking....
IDK whether other individuals will ever be charged but do think some of the arrogance and chutzpah might stem from decades of getting away with white collar crimes ( allegations of fraud, rumours of tax evasion, bogus med insurance claims etc) and a future prosecution of individuals might reveal extent of that.

I don't think CA was born this way, I think he learned it and was afforded it. Family wealth.Power. Connections. Buy your way out of anything

@RickshawFan at that point in 2016, Donna & Harvey were still doing their morning gym routines and also have a personal trainer. Prosecutions must have taken their toll too?

 

[amicuscurie]

re what the wire-taps reveal in terms of what Harvey didn't know is bound to be spun by the defense as exculpatory. ( If not at DA's trial, then certainly in event of any future prosecutions)

I trust Georgia has all of this covered.
That she can draw a line between
- 2013 texts claiming issues with blood pressure ( HA's reactions during litigation)
- 2016 wiretap calls about not informing HA just yet ( about the bump blackmail)
- potential witnesses who can testify to HA's tendency to react emotionally & violently to crises ( past TPD tips. Demko's emphasis on Harvey's anger 2012/13 )
- speculative theories about the family dynamic ( CA messed-up again, couldn't pull it off but DA had assured the family that he could manage this)
- HA's reactions on the Matsuri tape, even though not much was audible

personally, I think Harvey knew a lot of the detailed planning but because we can't see it, it's easy to we assume he didn't.

----
and then, if and when Wendi's defense tries to play the same tune ( CA: 'Does Wendi know?' DA: 'Noooooooooooo')
- simple fact that she was a lawyer at the time the hit was being planned ( what her career meant to her vs risk. Need to scrupulously wall her off.)
- While HA's blood pressure & aneurysm are often referenced by D & C, there are crumbs out there which suggest that Wendi's mental health wasn't 100% robust. ( Yes I know that her med records won't be admissable but Demko & Lacasse both mentioned a flakiness pre murder as well as in the weeks running up to it. References from 2005 pre-engagement to DM, running through WA using a therapist in spring 2014)

This is dead on, to me- really captures what I agree may be the family dynamic here, with respect to Harvey/Charlie/Donna.

 

[amicuscurie]

It’s surprising HA trusted CA with this sceme. The parents had to know they couldn’t rely on him to pull it off. Thats assuming they are “normal parents” which we know to be otherwise.
Someone came on the L and C live trial coverage for C, and he seemed legit.
He was a neighbor of the A’s and said that D was always getting C out of trouble as a kid.
He interacted with people on the chat.Grew up across the street from the A’sin the cul de sac.
Said his own dad was a dentist in the town also. Seemed legit.
How would H trust C to make this work? Well it did for years.

H would def be livid hearing about the bump bc that would mean their plan didn’t work and they would be getting busted.

PS on that same coverage,someone else said she was a hygienist in Deerfield and was pretty vocal about her interactions with C in the office. It seems like that woman who was on STS.

I also think Harvey might have been very upset to hear about the bump, and how this “black sheep” kid had potentially messed things up big time for him. He might have been told about the plan after it was already in motion, and gone along with it with extreme reservations. I also think they might have told him he could be kept out of it, and they might have told Wendi that as well.

I think Charlie also told Donna she would be kept out of it. Charlie seems like he might have told her something like “it’s not against the law to write checks, Mom.” This seems to me to be the kids of thing he would say. Also, he didn‘t even ask her start writing checks until after the murder, so she was even more insulated under the original plan of just a cash payment. That may be why she allegedly washed the cash, to make sure it couldn’t be traced to her or the business. And, frankly, if it weren’t for the bump calls, she might have had a more credible defense, that she didn’t know anything about the murder and only wrote the checks because she thought Katie needed them for the insurance for her kids. The bump pretty much ruins that argument, for me.

Frankly, to me an argument can be made that Charlie thought he had kept HIMSELF out of it by putting it all on Katie, putting that paper in an envelope, not ever knowing who the killers actually were, etc. Listening to the way he talks to Katie on the bump calls and Dolce Vita, it sounds to me like he is telling her this is HER problem, that the people SHE hired are bothering his mom, and SHE needs to take care of it, or they will get caught and implicate HER.

IMO, the bump is what really did these people in. Without it, all the cops have is Rivera, but that only implicates Katie. So, you can see Charlie’s thinking, perhaps, that they were insulated.

 

[cottonweaver]

This is dead on, to me- really captures what I agree may be the family dynamic here, with respect to Harvey/Charlie/Donna.

I omitted questions around Charlie's insecurity, just cause post would've been too long but wonder what other people think of that?

Obviously it's pure speculation but, to me, he veers between boss-man and little boy in the jail calls. (Eldest Rob had virtually been cancelled. ) Highest earner? but middle child. Seeking approval and status?

Rob, eldest.
Wendi is Daddy's princess?
She might also have been Grandma's too? ( see next post about Donna's mother )

 

[amicuscurie]

I omitted questions around Charlie's insecurity, just cause post would've been too long but wonder what other people think of that?

Obviously it's pure speculation but, to me, he veers between boss-man and little boy in the jail calls. (Eldest Rob had virtually been cancelled. ) Highest earner? but middle child. Seeking approval and status?

Rob, eldest.
Wendi is Daddy's princess?
She might also have been Grandma's too? ( see next post about Donna's mother )

Agreed. Armchair psychiatrist, Just My Opinion: Charlie might have felt that Rob’s banishment gave him an opportunity to move up the ladder in his Mom’s estimation, OR, that with Rob gone, the focus was going to be on him to step into the role of family golden boy, and he might not have felt like he was ready for or capable of that. This Wendi situation may have been, in his view, an opportunity to prove to the family that he could be their protector/fixer, that he was “good enough.” But, in my opinion, he wasn’t, he greatly overestimated his capacity, and ruined the family instead.

 

[cottonweaver]

Agreed. Armchair psychiatrist, Just My Opinion: Charlie might have felt that Rob’s banishment gave him an opportunity to move up the ladder in his Mom’s estimation, OR, that with Rob gone, the focus was going to be on him to step into the role of family golden boy, and he might not have felt like he was ready for or capable of that. This Wendi situation may have been, in his view, an opportunity to prove to the family that he could be their protector/fixer, that he was “good enough.” But, in my opinion, he wasn’t, he greatly overestimated his capacity, and ruined the family instead.

agree and Georgia will further exploit all this - she has already.

there's still that status rivalry there too.
On one of the calls to Donna, Charlie says Wendi has a brilliant mind but 'can’t find her way out of a paper bag.' Backhanded compliment.

-----
What do you think of the notion that Donna helped cook-up the elaborate double extortion with Charlie in the run-up to the trial? ( with Dan Rashbaum as the conduit?) In some of the jail calls, she even seemed as invested as me but equally won't admit any errors in it.

We already heard her say that she's spent hours with Dan in lead up to the trial. As well as spent time with DR's wife

 

[Knitpicker]

The Dolce Vita was the day after the bump. At that point, Charlie says Donna had not yet told Harvey. I’m assuming Charlie means she hadn’t yet told Harvey about the bump at that point; in one of the first bump calls, she says she doesn’t want to tell Harvey because he “flies off the handle.” Perhaps she didn’t want to tell Harvey without speaking with Charlie first and figuring out just how serious a problem they had.

At some point it appears that they did tell Harvey about the bump, as there was a meeting of all three of them by the pool area of the Icon; the feds were there but they couldn’t get anything on tape. The Matsuri meeting was sometime after that. There are also some calls where they discuss that Harvey is not taking the news well, and he couldn’t go into work. But, again, Dolce Vita is very early, just after the bump, at that point he has met with his mom and is now meeting with Katie. He says his mom hasn’t told his dad anything about this, presumably meaning the bump.

(When they may have told Harvey about the murder itself, and if he was involved from the beginning or if, as we see here, they didn’t involve him until they may have felt they had to, is another discussion).

Tamara Demko reported that Harvey acted just as strange to her as Wendi did.
Knowing she was one of Dans best friends they gave her the cold shoulder. Inappropriate behavior.
Harvey also never called LE and knew Wendi hung up on Isom (he was in the car)and had her attorneys call him back in 20 minutes.

Yes, he was up till 5 am and Donna said he wasn’t going into work.
As the patriarch of the family, he didn’t do anything to find out who the killers of his son in law were.
and allowed his daughter to change her sons last name to his, dishonoring their father.
Lots more… he was definitely in “the know”

 

[amicuscurie]

agree and Georgia will further exploit all this - she has already.

there's still that status rivalry there too.
On one of the calls to Donna, Charlie says Wendi has a brilliant mind but can’t find her way out of a paper bag.

He seems to me to like this narrative that Wendi is dumb and he needs to help her, it shows up in the bump calls about Dave, and in the texts with Donna about how she was buying a house and he talked her out of it. And to me, it seems like Donna feeds into this, telling him how great he is at getting her to do what they want. Whether Donna actually believes this or is manipulating him into doing her bidding by making it seem like it’s for his sister, is anyone’s guess. I believe Donna played them against each other a lot.

ETA

In my opinion, Donna wanted this murder done, and she got Charlie to arrange it, maybe by making him think it was for Wendi’s own good, because Dan was causing Wendi so much grief. Not that he wasn’t causing her grief, of course, I believe he was. But in my opinion, Charlie may have been getting a very distorted picture from Donna about just how upset Wendi was, because that may have served Donna’s own ends. Also, it seems to me that Donna may have a hard time separating her own feelings from Wendi’s, just going by her emails in which she seems to be speaking as though she were Wendi at certain points when discussing arguments to be made in favor of relocation; (many of these arguments actually apply to Donna, such as the argument that the business is losing money.). So when she is talking about how upset Wendi is, she may be doing a fair amount of projecting her own feelings on to her. This does not mean I don’t think Wendi was upset with Dan, or involved or knew about the murder. I just think that when Donna is talking about Wendi, she may be talking about herself. But Charlie may not be aware of all this.

 

[amicuscurie]

Tamara Demko reported that Harvey acted just as strange to her as Wendi did.
Knowing she was one of Dans best friends they gave her the cold shoulder. Inappropriate behavior.
Harvey also never called LE and knew Wendi hung up on Isom (he was in the car)and had her attorneys call him back in 20 minutes.

Yes, he was up till 5 am and Donna said he wasn’t going into work.
As the patriarch of the family, he didn’t do anything to find out who the killers of his son in law was
and allowed his daughter to chanhe her sons last name to his, dishonoring their father.
Lots more… he was definitely in “the know”

Oh, of course, I’m not saying Harvey didn’t know or wasn’t involved, I just do not believe (JMO) he came up with the idea, I believe they did and then they looped him in at some point.

 

[Knitpicker]

Oh, of course, I’m not saying Harvey didn’t know or wasn’t involved, I just do not believe (JMO) he came up with the idea, I believe they did and then they looped him in at some point.

Oh yes I agree.I was just adding some other things that came to mind. Thats why Donna said “It involves the two of us”. He may have let her do all his dirty work in life. But he may have been more subdued outwardly.

 

[Knitpicker]

He seems to me to like this narrative that Wendi is dumb and he needs to help her, it shows up in the bump calls about Dave, and in the texts with Donna about how she was buying a house and he talked her out of it. And to me, it seems like Donna feeds into this, telling him how great he is at getting her to do what they want. Whether Donna actually believes this or is manipulating him into doing her bidding by making it seem like it’s for his sister, is anyone’s guess. I believe Donna played them against each other a lot.

I have been listening once again to his direct by GC. Hard to believe she had to put it all together ont he spot after hearing in court about the double extortion theory. I was wondering how her direct with Katie may have been different if she knew prior, It had to be really hard on Georgia and she did really well. Its so hard to follow Charlies story even listening for the 3rd time.It makes no sense but you have to admit, he has the gift of gab and it’s understandable how he could have deceived people in his everyday life. Same for Wendi. They have some twisted “gifts” for sure.

 

[cottonweaver]

I also think Harvey might have been very upset to hear about the bump, and how this “black sheep” kid had potentially messed things up big time for him. He might have been told about the plan after it was already in motion, and gone along with it with extreme reservations. I also think they might have told him he could be kept out of it, and they might have told Wendi that as well.

snipping just to jump off that point

remember the first DA- CA call after the bump? She's at Ikon and asks CA to bring cash to pay for dinner because she doesn't have enough cash, which in their cryptic language is - imo - code for the $5k.

I wondered whether - at this early stage just minutes after Bump - she entertained paying it and wanted to have it to hand, just in case?

No safe at Ikon? Not enough cash in safe at Ikon? Or Harvey might've noticed if she'd taken $5k out of the safe at Ikon

just spitballin....

 

[cottonweaver]

I have been listening once again to his direct by GC. Hard to believe she had to put it all together ont he spot after hearing in court about the double extortion theory. I was wondering how her direct with Katie may have been different if she knew prior, It had to be really hard on Georgia and she did really well. Its so hard to follow Charlies story even listening for the 3rd time.It makes no sense but you have to admit, he has the gift of gab and it’s understandable how he could have deceived people in his everyday life. Same for Wendi. They have some twisted “gifts” for sure.

Definitely
A conman who thinks he's The Maestro