FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #23

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Knitpicker said:
I can’t fall asleep to most of the channels now, because the ad comes on much louder than the podcast and wakes me up. Years ago many of the channels covering the trials didn’t have ads. I used to fall asleep to Carl’s until he monitized and now there are ads every 5 minutes. His voice was good to fall asleep to lol

UPDATE: Actually he may have done something because I see his podcast from last night doesnt seem to have ads. People were complaining about that.(only one or two ads at the beginning).
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Same problem here. You have to be discriminating if your goal is to fall asleep :D
 
Manipulative Wendi and her deeply devious family.

Knowing what we know now ( the new evidence which has been released ) IMO the old jail calls become more interesting.

This is 8th Nov jail call - day 2 after CA's conviction and the first time W has seen her parents since the catastrophic news ( It's one day after Donna has started trying to arrange visas to Nam)

For example this one for me - JMO - shows for example
- how Wendi manipulates Donna to keep her on side after Donna blew up and sent those risky messages to Wendi. Wendi has now talked mom off the ledge and Donna bought it! ( Wendi seeks to do the same with Charlie, using her lawyer's advice as cover for her uncaring silence)

- seems to confirm how she's brainwashed/lied to the kids about the crime ( and control! won't allow a conversation between them & CA for at least a week. They might blurt something out right, a period of high emotion? Risky. Got to maintain the Big Lie. )

- her determination not to appear on any call logs ( Uses the boyfriend used as the go -between, and uses speaker phone function so she can hear & reply to Mom. Also IMO, the boyfriend didn't know they were off to Vietnam. They kept it from him. He can stay in the condo or lobby or she cannot bring him along)

- hints at how she plans to arrange to speak to Charlie but without having the content monitored ( My guess is via a 3-way ' conference call' via a 'dirty' lawyer - against jail rules & IMO this was the plan for future DA - CA chats once in Vietnam)

- wondering whether CA ruminated on this call later? The fact that she wouldn't even be in the same room while his mom spoke to him. He's not totally stupid, he must've realised that she didn't need to go that far - a separate room

- Harvey smart cookie.' No details!' ( OK you can tell Annie C we're leaving but repeats warning not to give Annie the details of their escape. Fast forward 5 days later to the airport bodycams where he's acting as if it was just an innocent travel plan)

all that just in the first seven minutes of the jail call! I haven't got any further with it.

anyway, I do think Charlie & Wendi will have spoken by now. she needs that, too risky otherwise, can't afford for him to flip. Will she be successful on that score? Only time will tell.

 
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cottonweaver said:
Manipulative Wendi and her deeply devious family.

Knowing what we know now ( the new evidence which has been released ) IMO the old jail calls become more interesting.

This is 8th Nov jail call - day 2 after CA's conviction and the first time W has seen her parents since the catastrophic news ( It's one day after Donna has started trying to arrange visas to Nam)

For example this one for me - JMO - shows for example
- how Wendi manipulates Donna to keep her on side after Donna blew up and sent those risky messages to Wendi. Wendi has now talked mom off the ledge and Donna bought it! ( Wendi seeks to do the same with Charlie, using her lawyer's advice as cover for her uncaring silence)

- seems to confirm how she's brainwashed/lied to the kids about the crime ( and control! won't allow a conversation between them & CA for at least a week. They might blurt something out right, a period of high emotion? Risky. Got to maintain the Big Lie. )

- her determination not to appear on any call logs ( Uses the boyfriend used as the go -between, and uses speaker phone function so she can hear & reply to Mom. Also IMO, the boyfriend didn't know they were off to Vietnam. They kept it from him. He can stay in the condo or lobby or she cannot bring him along)

- hints at how she plans to arrange to speak to Charlie but without having the content monitored ( My guess is via a 3-way ' conference call' via a 'dirty' lawyer - against jail rules & IMO this was the plan for future DA - CA chats once in Vietnam)

- wondering whether CA ruminated on this call later? The fact that she wouldn't even be in the same room while his mom spoke to him. He's not totally stupid, he must've realised that she didn't need to go that far - a separate room

- Harvey smart cookie.' No details!' ( OK you can tell Annie C we're leaving but repeats warning not to give Annie the details of their escape. Fast forward 5 days later to the airport bodycams where he's acting as if it was just an innocent travel plan)

all that just in the first seven minutes of the jail call! I haven't got any further with it.

anyway, I do think Charlie & Wendi will have spoken by now. she needs that, too risky otherwise, can't afford for him to flip. Will she be successful on that score? Only time will tell.

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Who is Annie Cunningham? From the context of this call, I thought she and her husband were people who took care of the rental properties for them. Doesn’t she refer to the husband having to possibly do repairs? (Or is that someone else?) But in the recent evidence from Donna’s phone, she says she may need them to “come down,” and refers to them “buying a ticket,” implying they live far away. Would they be maintaining properties from far away? Is this just an emergency option? They must trust them an awful lot to be contacting them as their second option when Wendi doesn’t pick up. But they live far away and seem to be this old caretaker-couple. They don’t seem likely to be longtime trusted social friends.
 
amicuscurie said:
Especially given all this new info about what they got from Donna’s phone, I think there is no “move to Austin.” In my opinion, I think she is anticipating an arrest and is getting her affairs in order, needing to rent out her place, and “moving” is an excuse to give in case anybody asks why. They do have family in Texas, as I understand, and so perhaps the boys are being sent there or to a boarding school. But I believe (JMO) the move is a ruse.
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You think shes living with Harvey at his and Donnas condo?
 
Knitpicker said:
You think shes living with Harvey at his and Donnas condo?
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I can’t imagine WA is “getting her affairs in order” calmly and without an escape plan — I mean like “disappear” — a self imposed witness protection of sorts. She knows leaving the country won’t work. I’ve wondered if she’s thought about becoming someone else — completely changing her hairstyle/color, getting contacts with a different tint, changing her wardrobe, moving someplace off the grid, getting plastic surgery under a false name, and then living in a place of her choosing with a new moniker and identity. I mean her family has proven themselves big schemers. It’s been done before.

On the other hand, yes, WA may be preparing for an arrest and period of jail, but thinking she will never be found guilty. IMO she is arrogant and conniving. She probably thinks she’s covered her tracks and there isn’t sufficient evidence to incarcerate her for life. If she’s getting things in order it’s probably for the short-term.

In my opinion, h€11 or high water, she has no intentions of going to prison!
Only my musings :rolleyes:
 
amicuscurie said:
Who is Annie Cunningham? From the context of this call, I thought she and her husband were people who took care of the rental properties for them. Doesn’t she refer to the husband having to possibly do repairs? (Or is that someone else?) But in the recent evidence from Donna’s phone, she says she may need them to “come down,” and refers to them “buying a ticket,” implying they live far away. Would they be maintaining properties from far away? Is this just an emergency option? They must trust them an awful lot to be contacting them as their second option when Wendi doesn’t pick up. But they live far away and seem to be this old caretaker-couple. They don’t seem likely to be longtime trusted social friends.
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Obviously I don't know, I'm only surmising. Nonetheless, this is what I get from that call & the new discovery:

- Annie & Ron ( husband?) get call lists. ( Wendi also gets a ' call list' according to the Donna planner, see previous WS posts)
- Yes, Annie & R are out of state & Annie has to fly to meet Donna to get the rationale face to face.
- Donna trusts this couple enough to tell them that they're leaving the country. So they might be long time pals/ business associates. Donna has nobody local she can entrust with it, hence resorting to tasking out-of-state people. Anyway, we'll know whether Donna was correct to trust them as close friends when we get to trial cause it seems as if they did not snitch ( Only Scott R tipped-off the cops? Trial will confirm)

- DA is unwilling to say some risky things over the phone. (In the call I linked to she's also having a panic over whether it would be better to convey this secret stuff to Annie via Rashbaum instead and whining about whether her phone is being tapped.)
- Harvey will task Ron to deal with issues relating to their properties ( Link in post you're replying to. Mentions Ron will then have task of speaking to repair/ maintenance guys etc. Note the interesting dynamic here, Donna tackles the hot potato issues & Harvey does the follow-up actions. Was it the same role dynamic with the initial planning of the assassination?)
- BTW, Annie messages recur in the ' 85 tagged items' discovery. ( Have already transcribed that, details can be found in previous WS posts)

----
There's also another couple they trust: S and husband R. They're inside Donna's condo the day prior. It's on another call/ ' hot mic.' So... that's another couple who might end up on the final state's witness list? S & R also know about the flee, S says so in the recording linked to.
S & R are dealing with the $, the trusts etc, so they sound like paid friends ( sarcasm) rather than friend friends

Although with the Adelsons it's hard to know. By 2023 do they have any people in their ' circle of trust' who aren't on the payroll? ( Is Ron also getting paid for his co-ordination tasks? I dunno. no hints in the recording.)

-----
Anyway, that's all rather dull but I want to add an extra point under the umbrella topic of Donna's delegation instructions because a hot topic has been whether CA flips on WA in the years to come.

On management of the trust for Charlie's son, Donna tells CA that she's arranged for this order:
- HA & DA to manage, but if something happens to them...
- Michael M to manage disbursements, but if something happens to MM...
- Wendi to manage disbursements to the child as he grows up

Now, that's probably all changed since the DA arrest but nonetheless can you imagine trusting Wendi with money & the long term financial welfare of CA's son?
CA would be crazy to give WA any role or anything she could hold over CA. (I assume he's already realised all of that.)
OFC, I can see why Wendi agreed to that in the days after the CA verdict. ( WA: I can't offer you a word of consolation or comfort while you're losing your mind in that suicide cell but sure I'll absolutely TCB for your son over the next XX years'!)
 
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forgot to add the source for the S & R info up there & the point about trust money

Adding the link for the benefit of others who've never listened to the calls before & just cause it's WS rules on sourcing and all that ( Trust money segment is at the top of the tape, in first 5 mins or so )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXg7CYFaSR0
 
I keep wondering how much of D Rashbaum's previous defense tactics used to intimidate witnesses will be used at Donna's trial? I am just trying to imagine, if CA tries to get a better deal by testifiying against one of his family members...DA or WA? Will D Rashbaum be as abrasive and cruel in asking CA if he is only making a deal with the state because that is the only way he will get out of prison other than a pine box? The one segment that has always irritated me, because I felt he sounded like a smug bully and it was just so mean:
DR "So there's only one way you are getting out of prison and that is in a box!"
KM "Why do you keep saying that sir?"
DR "You're in jail for the rest of your life. If the state doesn't help you the only way you are getting out of prison is when you die!"
KM "But they never said they were going to help me."
DR "That's not my question. What's the only way you are getting out of prison if the state doesn't help you?!"
KM "I'll die in prison."
I thought the 8th amendment, cruel and unusual punishment also includes the words (paraphrasing) ... unacceptable due to the suffering, pain, or humiliation it inflicts on the person subjected to the sanction.
DR was the only one screaming in the courtroom...I guess it was his Pacino performance IYKWIM. I felt the trial was being conducted in a very civil manner until then. It has to be tough trying to keep emotional outbursts from occurring in a court room and surprised no one objected. So my point? If KM is such an awful person, lying and extorting CA for a third of a million dollars & getting DA to write checks....Why do neither of them ever say one negative thing about Katie in their phone calls? They never say, "Wish I had never started dating her" or "Chawlie, I never liked the girl" or "She is such a liar." "That girl ruined our lives!" Nope. All their hate, criticism, Monday-morning-quarterbacking and "woulda coulda,shoulda's" were directed at the prosecutors and jurors.
 
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LetsSolvIt said:
I can’t imagine WA is “getting her affairs in order” calmly and without an escape plan — I mean like “disappear” — a self imposed witness protection of sorts. She knows leaving the country won’t work. I’ve wondered if she’s thought about becoming someone else — completely changing her hairstyle/color, getting contacts with a different tint, changing her wardrobe, moving someplace off the grid, getting plastic surgery under a false name, and then living in a place of her choosing with a new moniker and identity. I mean her family has proven themselves big schemers. It’s been done before.

On the other hand, yes, WA may be preparing for an arrest and period of jail, but thinking she will never be found guilty. IMO she is arrogant and conniving. She probably thinks she’s covered her tracks and there isn’t sufficient evidence to incarcerate her for life. If she’s getting things in order it’s probably for the short-term.

In my opinion, h€11 or high water, she has no intentions of going to prison!
Only my musings :rolleyes:
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Some say she is living with her boyfriend, the realtor. The one who isn’t following this case. Apparently.
 
IQuestion said:
I keep wondering how much of D Rashbaum's previous defense tactics used to intimidate witnesses will be used at Donna's trial? I am just trying to imagine, if CA tries to get a better deal by testifiying against one of his family members...DA or WA? Will D Rashbaum be as abrasive and cruel in asking CA if he is only making a deal with the state because that is the only way he will get out of prison other than a pine box? The one segment that has always irritated me, because I felt he sounded like a smug bully and it was just so mean:
DR "So there's only one way you are getting out of prison and that is in a box!"
KM "Why do you keep saying that sir?"
DR "You're in jail for the rest of your life. If the state doesn't help you the only way you are getting out of prison is when you die!"
KM "But they never said they were going to help me."
DR "That's not my question. What's the only way you are getting out of prison if the state doesn't help you?!"
KM "I'll die in prison."
I thought the 8th amendment, cruel and unusual punishment also includes the words (paraphrasing) ... unacceptable due to the suffering, pain, or humiliation it inflicts on the person subjected to the sanction.
DR was the only one screaming in the courtroom...I guess it was his Pacino performance IYKWIM. I felt the trial was being conducted in a very civil manner until then. It has to be tough trying to keep emotional outbursts from occurring in a court room and surprised no one objected. So my point? If KM is such an awful person, lying and extorting CA for a third of a million dollars & getting DA to write checks....Why do neither of them ever say one negative thing about Katie in their phone calls? They never say, "Wish I had never started dating her" or "Chawlie, I never liked the girl" or "She is such a liar." "That girl ruined our lives!" Nope. All their hate, criticism, Monday-morning-quarterbacking and "woulda coulda,shoulda's" were directed at the prosecutors and jurors.
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That tactic displayed only helped the prosecution imo. I don’t think he was likable at all. He also did a lot of sneering in front of the jury. He seems like a sarcastic guy. Personally, I despise sarcasm in a person. It’s narcissistic and disrespectful. Katie did well with him though. She showed she’s tough as steel.
 
Knitpicker said:
Some say she is living with her boyfriend, the realtor. The one who isn’t following this case. Apparently.
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Where did we hear he was a realtor? I thought he worked in tech? She could be living with him. I heard a rumor somewhere she might marry him. Apropos of nothing, spouses can’t be forced to testify against each other as I understand it.

ETA- I think they only can’t be made to testify about stuff the spouse said to them while they were married.
 
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Any ideas as to why the State has not, since November 2023, already subpoena'd Donna's provider for her landline & cell records?
Do they think they don't need them and just expected to rely on the Cellebrite extraction of her cell?

second, why did Defense wait until the end of June to raise this? Also, they don't want a hearing


It's one of today's filing's -

Defense claims ' apparently this was not seized and preserved'

(IMO It would have been apparent in discovery months ago. AFAIK, back in March 2024)

Also, IIRC from the last status hearing, the discovery deadline isn't met yet in any case. Could it be the Defense just playing games? Obviously IANAL so appreciate any suggestions as to why they filed this
 
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amicuscurie said:
Where did we hear he was a realtor? I thought he worked in tech? She could be living with him. I heard a rumor somewhere she might marry him. Apropos of nothing, spouses can’t be forced to testify against each other as I understand it.

ETA- I think they only can’t be made to testify about stuff the spouse said to them while they were married.
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Dave was an IT guy. Yes probably rumors going around but pretty sure he is a realtor, yeah I heard about the living together/marriage also.
 
amicuscurie said:
Wow! So, seems to me like maybe she is leaving soon or has already.
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Or staying and just renting it out. Or living with the boyfriend with the kids.
Amazing that in just a few years she made 400K if she sells. People paying so much (60K a year to rent) just to live in 1100 sq foot outdated place, just to be where the action is.
 
cottonweaver said:
Any ideas as to why the State has not, since November 2023, already subpoena'd Donna's provider for her landline & cell records?
Do they think they don't need them and just expected to rely on the Cellebrite extraction of her cell?

second, why did Defense wait until the end of June to raise this? Also, they don't want a hearing


It's one of today's filing's -

Defense claims ' apparently this was not seized and preserved'

(IMO It would have been apparent in discovery months ago. AFAIK, back in March 2024)

Also, IIRC from the last status hearing, the discovery deadline isn't met yet in any case. Could it be the Defense just playing games? Obviously IANAL so appreciate any suggestions as to why they filed this
Click to expand...

I can not access that site - can you give me a little more info on what it says - so I can update my notes. TIA! :)
 
Knitpicker said:
Or staying and just renting it out. Or living with the boyfriend with the kids.
Amazing that in just a few years she made 400K if she sells. People paying so much (60K a year to rent) just to live in 1100 sq foot outdated place, just to be where the action is.
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Young families tend to like that particular Beach neighborhood (small and quiet and outside the entertainment district) because of the elementary school - one of the few decent places you can send your kid for free (or for 60k a year in rent). I’m curious as to why not just sell it- she may want income or want to keep it just in case. Why claim to be moving to Austin? It’s so puzzling.
 
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