FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #23

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re WS post #216 and the Donna entry on Icare packages to be sent to Charlie while he was in jail, this is one of the packs she was routinely sending him.


It's no wonder he was so popular in Leon C Jail and that he'd put on weight!
Screenshot 2024-08-01 at 19.51.28.png
 
I don’t recall him saying anything about a game controller. I thought he stated (using his hands as a visual) that someone punched the TV. Do I have to now watch his testimony for the 6th time? Lol
As I remember it, he said it looked like someone punched it and that a kid throwing a toy at it wouldn't have caused that amount of damage. I do not remember him mentioning a game controller specifically, but maybe he referred to that when he was saying a kids’ toy couldn’t do it.

As I noted before, he never said what W told him about how it broke, and he wasn’t asked. I find this odd, and it may mean that the state is saving this for a later trial.
 
STS, same show source as previous link.

This one is harder to interpret ( a mix of forward planning combined with updated notes. maybe Donna's notes referring to Vietnam Villa span three dates, if you catch my drift? What do you think? pre conviction, post conviction and then later after second thoughts?)

First entry is quite sad. If he gets off & this is over, she'll get her health checked out ( mammogram etc) I'm not going soft, I'm just being human
View attachment 521919
I definitely catch your drift.
 
STS, same show source as previous link.

This one is harder to interpret ( a mix of forward planning combined with updated notes. maybe Donna's notes referring to Vietnam Villa span three dates, if you catch my drift? What do you think? pre conviction, post conviction and then later after second thoughts?)

First entry is quite sad. If he gets off & this is over, she'll get her health checked out ( mammogram etc) I'm not going soft, I'm just being human
View attachment 521919
Or- this could mean that if he is not free, she will not be in Miami to have this Mammo. That should ease some of your sympathy.
 
As I remember it, he said it looked like someone punched it and that a kid throwing a toy at it wouldn't have caused that amount of damage. I do not remember him mentioning a game controller specifically, but maybe he referred to that when he was saying a kids’ toy couldn’t do it.

As I noted before, he never said what W told him about how it broke, and he wasn’t asked. I find this odd, and it may mean that the state is saving this for a later trial.
Charlie said at trial “You’d have to ask Lincoln-he threw a remote control at it”…so how did Charlie know it was Lincoln?
 
Yes, I think that the issue of when or if Donna was outside Charlie’s house and when they got on the turnpike to go to Orlando will be an issue at trial. Sunpass records would show exactly when the car got on the turnpike. That could be compared with the time of Donna’s text to Charlie saying she was outside his house (they argued that this meant she was on the turnpike, as I recall, and it actually outside his house, so these records would be relevant to that ), and with cell tower records from when they reached Orlando.
Except I95 has no tolls/so no sun pass. But the better way is the turnpike from Charlies house.
And they would be closer to the Turnpike than I95.
And there would be tolls from Orlando to Tallahassee but it would have been the next day if they slept over in Orlando.
But yes, if they did take the Tpke, they could prove or disprove the texts to Charlie vs when they were there vs when they were on the road. I’m trying to think of where the sun passes would be on the TYke from Ft Laud to Orlando…Hmmm..
My guess…”How could they have time to stop at Charlies when Charlie was on the road coming back from Jupiter, and they got on the Turnpike at…”
 
STS, same show source as previous link.

This one is harder to interpret ( a mix of forward planning combined with updated notes. maybe Donna's notes referring to Vietnam Villa span three dates, if you catch my drift? What do you think? pre conviction, post conviction and then later after second thoughts?)

First entry is quite sad. If he gets off & this is over, she'll get her health checked out ( mammogram etc) I'm not going soft, I'm just being human
View attachment 521919
Maybe she knew Charlies freedom/incarceration was going to have an effect on her arrest?
 
STS, same show source as previous link given above, on this WS page.
The last screenshot from the episode

An overview to give you an idea of how the planner pages look. View attachment 521925
Thanks for this. Are you a Patreon member? Because I have not seen full pages. Its been a sort of tease on the show.
 
Thanks for this. Are you a Patreon member? Because I have not seen full pages. Its been a sort of tease on the show.
No, these ones are just examples they showed on the last Youtube STS episode I have linked to but I heard Joel say he would be putting it all on his Patreon. ( I guess that covers the $300 they spent on the discovery. )
I just wanted to put them on WS cause not everybody has the time to watch /listen to all these shows and because it's hard to discuss any of it without adding the specific images here

Sadly, I assume the 2012 + planners have long been destroyed.
Can you really imagine keeping all those old planners in storage? So risky?
 
No, these ones are just examples they showed on the last Youtube STS episode I have linked to but I heard Joel say he would be putting it all on his Patreon. ( I guess that covers the $300 they spent on the discovery. )
I just wanted to put them on WS cause not everybody has the time to watch /listen to all these shows and because it's hard to discuss any of it without adding the specific images here
I saw the show and didn’t remember seeing a full page.
Was it 300.00, or was that what Mentour raised the first day he started revealing the planner? I think he raised 300.00 that night. It was from 11 PM-1 AM. I nodded out before it was over., lol I’d better stop commenting, I know some people get upset about too many posts from the ☺️ same person,
 
I saw the show and didn’t remember seeing a full page.
Was it 300.00, or was that what Mentour raised the first day he started revealing the planner? I think he raised 300.00 that night. It was from 11 PM-1 AM. I nodded out before it was over., lol I’d better stop commenting, I know some people get upset about too many posts from the ☺️ same person,
Screenshot 2024-08-01 at 20.30.27.png


there were a few more entries at the end of the show but I didn't screenshot those
 
I saw the show and didn’t remember seeing a full page.
Was it 300.00, or was that what Mentour raised the first day he started revealing the planner? I think he raised 300.00 that night. It was from 11 PM-1 AM. I nodded out before it was over., lol I’d better stop commenting, I know some people get upset about too many posts from the ☺️ same person,
Oh not tired of the comments, but always amazed at the details you are able to recall so quickly! This past week has been filled with some of the most intriguing thoughts, theories and insights I have read in a long time. I love reading the development of ideas...and just how smart y'all are. (Heck this week I learned a couple new terms DEI's and schadenfreude. Go figure!;)) And definately staying clear of furniture/decorating comments...I still love Mom & Pop recliners.
 
He said on the stand that it was June 11-16 if I remember right. I know it was one month before the murder. People think it was March because strangely, Wendi said on the stand Something like “well, if the TV was broken in March”….an answer to something GC questioned her on.
mentour Lawyer mentions the same thing to Ruth Markel here.

at 15mins, ML explains how WA ' messed-up '
Dan wanted Wendi to confirm his narrative and she replies as if the TV was smashed months before it was meant to be smashed. I don't think Georgia spotted it at the time. I certainly didn't.

Ruth was appreciative that ML had caught this discrepancy

 
mentour Lawyer mentions the same thing to Ruth Markel here.

at 15mins, ML explains how WA ' messed-up '
Dan wanted Wendi to confirm his narrative and she replies as if the TV was smashed months before it was meant to be smashed. I don't think Georgia spotted it at the time. I certainly didn't.

Ruth was appreciative that ML had caught this discrepancy

I didn’t see this. I noticed it when she was on the stand last time. It was about whether she told “the joke” at Yardbird (Georgia asked her if she did-almost sure). She said something like “if it was broken in March I could have”. (I am not positive thisis how it was said but it was something new).
I hadn’t watched ML for a long time bc he was covering other cases. Just recently started again. I. Like him but he seems to drag out information and I like to speed up and I have a hard time understanding him sped up. I’ll have to check that one out.
Georgia seemed to miss a lot of opportunities but it may just have appeared that way. Eventually W will have to face all of her fabrications
 
mentour Lawyer mentions the same thing to Ruth Markel here.

at 15mins, ML explains how WA ' messed-up '
Dan wanted Wendi to confirm his narrative and she replies as if the TV was smashed months before it was meant to be smashed. I don't think Georgia spotted it at the time. I certainly didn't.

Ruth was appreciative that ML had caught this discrepancy

Oh OK, it was Dan questioning her, and not GC? OK I didn’t remember that. Btw, how did you find that so fast?
 
Yes. I see it. It’s possible Donna told Wendi about the plot, but didn’t tell Charlie that Wendi knew. That, to me, would be consistent with how manipulative people work, they make sure nobody knows the whole picture. Donna and Charlie, we know, have been heard on the bump tapes talking about Wendi behind her back, and how much help she needs. So when Charlie is saying on the jail tapes that “it can’t be a coincidence,” etc., he may really not understand and think that it’s just bad luck in her having chosen that particular route on that particular day. And Donna, of course, if that were the case, would not want him to figure it out.

Maybe it happened like this: (what follows below is hypothetical, just my opinion):

Donna seems to me to have been getting more and more agitated about the divorce and was complaining to Charlie, we’ve seen texts at trial between them about this. Charlie may have told her he was working on a solution. (We have seen texts where he says he’s working on a “surprise for Harvey” for example, and we know Charlie asked Katie if she knew someone who could fix it, Katie has testified to this.). Donna may have at some point brought the plan up to Wendi, at which point Wendi may have told Donna something like “ok, let Charlie go through with it, but keep me out of it.” So Donna may have told Charlie something like “Wendi doesn’t know, she would go nuts, we need to protect her” or something. And Donna might have told Wendi “Charlie thinks you don’t know, and he will take the fall if we get caught.” Then, Wendi may have gone rogue, telling the cops about Charlie’s hit man “joke,” (to throw suspicion on him and make sure he would take the fall), and driving by the scene. It’s possible neither Donna nor Charlie knew she did any of those things until the first trial. It’s also possible Donna told her to drive by, but we have seen no phone records which would reflect that.

We do see an 18 minute call between Wendi and Charlie on the morning of the murder. We also know that Dan had gotten in an argument with her about wanting to pick up the boys that day for swimming, she shows Isom these texts in her police interview. Wendi may have been worried about the timing of the hit because Dan might have the boys with him, and she may have needed to communicate to Charlie that the murder needed to get done before Dan was going to pick them up. But, hypothetically, she couldn’t let Charlie know she knew about the plot. So, maybe, the TV repair had already been arranged by Donna and Wendi just so that Wendi would have an excuse to call Charlie that morning in case something like this arose. Maybe Donna told Charlie that his sister might be calling about the TV that morning, and that she had set up the TV repair as an alibi to protect Wendi. (But maybe she really set it up just to have a reason for Wendi to call Charlie if she needed to). And so maybe, when Wendi needed to communicate that Dan was going to pick up the boys, she called Charlie to ask about the Tv but found a way to work in complaining about Dan wanting to take the boys swimming, so that he would know Dan’s schedule without her having to admit she knew about the murder plot. She does tell Isom in her police interview that she spoke to Charlie about Dan’s plans to take the boys swimming, and he told her to let him take them. All that may have happened. He may have indeed told her that, thinking she didn’t know about the murder. Then, he may have gotten off the phone and called Katie to make sure the killers knew they had to get it done.

I don’t recall whether she said she texted Dan to ask to pick the kids up early and then he told her he was going to take them swimming, or whether he texted her first. I know that she reads these texts to Isom during the interview. If she texted him first, that is certainly interesting and may give the appearance that she was trying to find out his schedule and trying to make absolutely certain the boys would not be with him that afternoon, because she was going to pick them up early.

This is all hypothetical, of course. But it makes sense. The repairman left too early for it to work as a complete alibi, but if the purpose was to justify a call to Charlie, it works perfectly. Then as the morning went on and Wendi had heard nothing, and after she called Dan and he didn’t pick up, she may have arranged a last minute lunch and used that as an excuse to leave the house. (She does say to Isom that she used to have a regular lunch with these people, but that they hadn’t done it in a long time. She also seems to freak out a little when he suggests the lunch was last minute.). We know that the house was not on the way to the lunch place, so she may have needed a reason to drive by it. So, maybe she used the bourbon as an excuse to drive past the house, because she knew there was this one liquor store which would take her past the house. This is consistent with her statements at various points that she chose that liquor store because it was near her old house. That may, indeed, be why she chose it.

Again, this is all hypothetical but it is consistent with what we know from evidence presented at trial and her statement to the police. Whether she can be charged is a different question. Knowing a crime is going to occur is not a crime. Conspiracy requires doing an act in furtherance of the conspiracy. Is talking to your brother about your kids going swimming enough? Is sending Dan a text asking whether he will be home enough (we saw that one at trial).
Yes amicuscurie this makes so much sense. Seems the one trying to manipulate or execute a plan would use such techniques. And to allow some plausible deniability or confusion should things come to light?

I won’t find it now or readily…… but IIRC I think much is telling by DA having been contacted on the street by that undercover person posing as a representative for one of the accomplices’ family? She was encountered on the street and handed some information by that individual and spoke with him briefly. That was recorded by microphone and video. Seems Dateline, 20/20, or 48 Hours showed some of this. It might have been called ‘The Bump’ but I can’t be sure.

And I can’t recall her exact words to him. But it sure wasn't what in the heck are you talking about? Who are you? I am calling the police. What is your name? Can you show me some identification?

And IIRC she also I believe shortly thereafter called CA. Those IMO were some telling words. I think she might have said something along the lines of we need to talk, or we need to do something? Hopefully someone better up on this case can help find it.

It would seem conspiracy charges might be in order? Or perhaps some federal charges of conspiracy or versions of racketeering. Often RICO charges I believe are used too? IANAL. MOO
 
The bump was April 19, 2016. Within hours, DA and CA's phone exchanges and especially CA's guesswork on the specifics of the bump pretty much elineated DA to be a conspirator....But the DA and LE were still in the business of convicting KM at that point; and if the DA couldn't convict KM then getting CA as a conspirator would be difficult. And without CA, DA's obsequious discussions might have left the link obscure, the convictions would end with CA...So conversations after CA was convicted pretty much filled in those gaps.

And was DA manipulating everbody? You betcha, IMO, and that extends to HA but by my feel, manipulation was a key part of their relationship: Donna couldn't exist without it. JMO

ALL MOO and abridged from maybe 20-sources.
 
Yes amicuscurie this makes so much sense. Seems the one trying to manipulate or execute a plan would use such techniques. And to allow some plausible deniability or confusion should things come to light?

I won’t find it now or readily…… but IIRC I think much is telling by DA having been contacted on the street by that undercover person posing as a representative for one of the accomplices’ family? She was encountered on the street and handed some information by that individual and spoke with him briefly. That was recorded by microphone and video. Seems Dateline, 20/20, or 48 Hours showed some of this. It might have been called ‘The Bump’ but I can’t be sure.

And I can’t recall her exact words to him. But it sure wasn't what in the heck are you talking about? Who are you? I am calling the police. What is your name? Can you show me some identification?

And IIRC she also I believe shortly thereafter called CA. Those IMO were some telling words. I think she might have said something along the lines of we need to talk, or we need to do something? Hopefully someone better up on this case can help find it.

It would seem conspiracy charges might be in order? Or perhaps some federal charges of conspiracy or versions of racketeering. Often RICO charges I believe are used too? IANAL. MOO
She’s going to say, I think, that she had been told only about the “second extortion” by Charlie, and so when the guy approached her she thought it was about that, and that s why she said “the two of us.” This is how they explained, at trial, why she wrote the checks to Katie.

It’s been my opinion, all along, that her best defense would be to say that her son approached her and said she needed to write some checks to Katie so Katie could get insurance for her kids. I think that’s actually true, I think he did ask her to write checks for that purpose. If I recall correctly, are messages which indicate that Katie did need to show a paycheck to get some kind of state funds for her kids. (Of course, I also believe Donna was involved in the murder plot.)

My guess is that the paychecks and the insurance scheme was done to keep Katie happy, like with the Lexus and the trips, and not as direct payment for the murder. (Who would be stupid enough to pay for a murder with a check?) They never thought, in my opinion, that these checks would be looked at as payment for the murder, or could be connected to it. In their minds, the checks might not have been seen as direct payment for the murder; maybe they thought that was only the stapled cash, which they thought couldn’t be traced.

In my opinion they should have stuck to this story for Donna’s defense: “the checks were so Katie could get insurance, that’s all Charlie told me. It’s insurance fraud, but not murder. When the person approached me, I thought it was about insurance fraud, I was confused, I called to speak to Charlie.” The insurance story may have been their planned cover for Donna, until the bump when a big guy approached her and tried to extort her. At that point they may have thought that the big guy approaching her on the street would fit more with the “double extortion” story than with the insurance fraud story (since they seem to have thought it was in fact an extortion attempt and not the cops).

Anyway, they decided to go with the story that Charlie was extorted, and that he told his mom she had to write the checks for the extortion. This, to me, is a bad defense strategy for Charlie, and we can see that the jury thought so, too. It may, however, have been seen as a better defense strategy for Donna, to explain her conduct after the bump. Saying “he told me he was extorted” makes more sense and is more consistent with the bump phone calls, than saying he just came to her and told her to write checks to Katie so she could get insurance.

Remember, Rash was Donna’s lawyer first, and he’s Donna’s lawyer now. In my opinion the double extortion story is much better if you’re thinking in terms of Donna’s eventual defense than Charlie’s.
 
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Yes. I see it. It’s possible Donna told Wendi about the plot, but didn’t tell Charlie that Wendi knew. That, to me, would be consistent with how manipulative people work, they make sure nobody knows the whole picture. Donna and Charlie, we know, have been heard on the bump tapes talking about Wendi behind her back, and how much help she needs. So when Charlie is saying on the jail tapes that “it can’t be a coincidence,” etc., he may really not understand and think that it’s just bad luck in her having chosen that particular route on that particular day. And Donna, of course, if that were the case, would not want him to figure it out.
The three of them all knew, actually HA too and each one of them knew of the others involvement. But I believe WA and HA were kept out of the loop as much as possible for a number of reasons. I think HA knew deep down it was a bad idea and very risky, he was probably reassured by his stupid son and wife that they'd never get caught, so he went along with it reluctant. In order to avoid stressing him out, he was kept out of the loop. I think WA being kept out of the loop as they knew she'd be the prime suspect by default, she was also a trainwreck exemplified by her impulsive decision to drive past the crime scene and also I think that the murder plot was CA and DA's little baby.

They got off on planning and plotting this together and didn't want anyone else to steal their thunder, especially CA. This was his going to be the maestro's magnum opus..

WA's text to CA on the day of the murder showed that the two of them were in it together. "This is so sweet." A seemingly innocuous text which could be easily explained away, except WA deleted it and then lied about the reason she deleted it. "I always delete my messages." But there were plenty of text messages on her phone from CA that weren't deleted....
 
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