FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #23

[Going Rogue]

Levity aside, I would agree a "non traditional lender" wouldn't get paid back if they killed their client...But, this was not a borrower/lender situation. IMO, WA did not see it as a repayment of a loan...it was her entitlement. And, the murder of DM was the one way WA could assure receipt of the funds ($120K), avoid ever escalating attorney fees, save her public/professional career, have sole custody of the children (no doubt thrilling DA), Max Soc Sec benefits for the children, no more scrutiny over food/religious observance/school choices, 2 million in life insurance proceeds (her attempt to get control was thwarted) and move back to South Florida (civilization?). As CA said, "At least she no longer sees herself as a victim." That, in my mind is how she manipulated her family...I am being victimized by Dan and I want to come home. Catalyst or co-conspirator?

For they sow the wind and they shall reap the whirlwind.

PS: Simply having knowledge a murder/grievous act is about to rained down upon an innocent man is not a crime? But, what if she made the call to ensure the event doesn't occur "when my children are around?" For example: IE, Gee whiz golly, I'm so upset DM is going to pick up the boys early to go swimming? Oh don't worry, my hired killers will be sure they kill him before he goes to the daycare. Hold on while I call KM (the 18 minute call & hold time) and make sure it happens long before 2PM.
Okey dokey, I just got off the phone with KM and it is a go! BTW go out to lunch with some girlfriend(s) in the opposite direction of the crime scene.... the more witnesses who can attest to your shock and dismay, the better.
OOPS!! Dammit WA I said the opposite direction!!

Right, the $ Dan owed Wendi would have been paid upon Dan’s death and the $ owed was not at all in the same vein as $ from a "non traditional lender".

As far as your hypothetical, if there is no proof Wendi plotted this murder with Donna & Charlie, BUT was aware and raised the concern about the children in the ‘exact’ manner you outlined, I am not sure that constitutes an act of furtherance. Although I guess that could be up for debate. I know I could easily make an argument for either side of that hypothetical.

 

[apeXperience]

Here comes the State Attorneys, adding long time (43 years of experience) defense attorney James S. Lewis as Cat. A witness, perhaps as an expert witness for the prosecution.
It seems as if Donna Adelson's defense attorneys and the State are playing a blitz chess game now.
The tardy selective depositions and motions by the defense allow educated guess about potential defense planning. And, the State react by updating their priors and injecting more items, Donna's passport yesterday and additional Cat. A witness today, in the discovery process.

 

[ch_13]

Snipping a couple of comments.

For example: IE, Gee whiz golly, I'm so upset DM is going to pick up the boys early to go swimming? Oh don't worry, my hired killers will be sure they kill him before he goes to the daycare. Hold on while I call KM (the 18 minute call & hold time) and make sure it happens long before 2PM.
Okey dokey, I just got off the phone with KM and it is a go!

As far as your hypothetical, if there is no proof Wendi plotted this murder with Donna & Charlie, BUT was aware and raised the concern about the children in the ‘exact’ manner you outlined, I am not sure that constitutes an act of furtherance. Although I guess that could be up for debate. I know I could easily make an argument for either side of that hypothetical.

If Wendi provided information about Dan's schedule so that the killers would know when to act, then how is she not a part of the conspiracy? She was actively colluding with CA if she told him that the murder needed to happen before day care lets out.

It's a very different situation from her just being told that a murder will occur and passively not doing anything about it.

 

[Going Rogue]

Snipping a couple of comments.




If Wendi provided information about Dan's schedule so that the killers would know when to act, then how is she not a part of the conspiracy? She was actively colluding with CA if she told him that the murder needed to happen before day care lets out.

It's a very different situation from her just being told that a murder will occur and passively not doing anything about it.

Lets not lose sight of the fact that I’m responding to a hypothetical and I am saying it can be argued either way.

The way it was laid out (again a hypothetical) we are working off the assumption Wendi just had knowledge it was happening and was not part of the planning. The day of she is raising a concern that Dan is going to pick up the boys early to go swimming and concerned about her kids. The plan was already fully in motion and she is just a concerned mother in that scenario worried her kids could be in danger. Yes, you can argue it the other way as well – but the ‘information’ she is giving is not for the purpose of ‘tracking’ Dan’s whereabouts for the hit.

 

[amicuscurie]

Levity aside, I would agree a "non traditional lender" wouldn't get paid back if they killed their client...But, this was not a borrower/lender situation. IMO, WA did not see it as a repayment of a loan...it was her entitlement. And, the murder of DM was the one way WA could assure receipt of the funds ($120K), avoid ever escalating attorney fees, save her public/professional career, have sole custody of the children (no doubt thrilling DA), Max Soc Sec benefits for the children, no more scrutiny over food/religious observance/school choices, 2 million in life insurance proceeds (her attempt to get control was thwarted) and move back to South Florida (civilization?). As CA said, "At least she no longer sees herself as a victim." That, in my mind is how she manipulated her family...I am being victimized by Dan and I want to come home. Catalyst or co-conspirator?

For they sow the wind and they shall reap the whirlwind.

PS: Simply having knowledge a murder/grievous act is about to rained down upon an innocent man is not a crime? But, what if she made the call to ensure the event doesn't occur "when my children are around?" For example: IE, Gee whiz golly, I'm so upset DM is going to pick up the boys early to go swimming? Oh don't worry, my hired killers will be sure they kill him before he goes to the daycare. Hold on while I call KM (the 18 minute call & hold time) and make sure it happens long before 2PM.
Okey dokey, I just got off the phone with KM and it is a go! BTW go out to lunch with some girlfriend(s) in the opposite direction of the crime scene.... the more witnesses who can attest to your shock and dismay, the better.
OOPS!! Dammit WA I said the opposite direction!!

I never understood that line of Charlie’s “at least she no longer sees herself as a victim.” Thanks!

 

[amicuscurie]

All I’m saying is that it’s not a coincidence Donna & Harvey rented the apartment in May of 2014. IMO, Donna wanted a second place in anticipation of Wendi’s arrival and it’s possible Wendi was part of that plan. Not sure if that was a short-term plan or long-term, but I believe the decision to rent the place at the Continuum was 100% driven by Wendi's pending relocation to S. Florida. What the specific plan was as to who 'stayed' or ‘slept’ where on any given day / night is anyone’s guess. I could be completely wrong and Donna and Harvey just wanted a place in S. Beach and it had nothing to do with the plan to murder Dan and Wendi's move to S. Florida.

IMO, they didn’t necessarily need a second place in anticipation of her arrival, they had a 5br home 10 minutes away from H’s office. To me, the fact that they leased a place in Miami suggest W’s possible involvement in the plan.

 

[amicuscurie]

Is

Here comes the State Attorneys, adding long time (43 years of experience) defense attorney James S. Lewis as Cat. A witness, perhaps as an expert witness for the prosecution.
It seems as if Donna Adelson's defense attorneys and the State are playing a blitz chess game now.
The tardy selective depositions and motions by the defense allow educated guess about potential defense planning. And, the State react by updating their priors and injecting more items, Donna's passport yesterday and additional Cat. A witness today, in the discovery process.

Is this person the lawyer who Katie is talking to on one of the bump calls? The one who Sig got after he was arrested? Does anybody know?

ETA: it is. And there are wiretaps where he is speaking to Katie about how he has been in contact with the lawyers for “that family,” and “that family” will not go to the cops.

 

[ch_13]

Lets not lose sight of the fact that I’m responding to a hypothetical and I am saying it can be argued either way.

The way it was laid out (again a hypothetical) we are working off the assumption Wendi just had knowledge it was happening and was not part of the planning. The day of she is raising a concern that Dan is going to pick up the boys early to go swimming and concerned about her kids. The plan was already fully in motion and she is just a concerned mother in that scenario worried her kids could be in danger. Yes, you can argue it the other way as well – but the ‘information’ she is giving is not for the purpose of ‘tracking’ Dan’s whereabouts for the hit.

I understand this was a hypothetical, but what I'm saying is that once you take an active role in a conspiracy--no matter how small--then you can no longer claim that you're just a passive observer with no other involvement. Even if the only thing that Wendi did was intercede to make sure the murder happened before 2 PM and she had no other involvement, then she's now part of the gang.

 

[Going Rogue]

I understand this was a hypothetical, but what I'm saying is that once you take an active role in a conspiracy--no matter how small--then you can no longer claim that you're just a passive observer with no other involvement. Even if the only thing that Wendi did was intercede to make sure the murder happened before 2 PM and she had no other involvement, then she's now part of the gang.

Right, I guess ‘active role’ is subjective. I was responding to the hypothetical exactly as it was laid out and, again, I believe it can be argued either way.

 

[Knitpicker]

No it’s not coincidental. Aren’t we 99.99% sure Donna was in on the plot? If we are at least 99.99% sure, then it’s not a coincidence, I think we can make a logical deduction that it was part of the plan. I think you are hung up on where Wendi ‘lived’ or said she lived after she moved to S. Florida. Unless they can ‘find’ something that ties Wendi to the decision (maybe a money trail or email) before the murder about Donna and Harvey’s apartment lease, it’s a big nothing burger as it relates to ‘evidence’ on Wendi. It’s similar to all the other ‘indicators of guilt’ discussed in social media - assumption and conjuncture laced. I know you will probably say that’s me ‘defending’ Wendi, but it’s just a very realistic take on the data available AND stating that doesn’t mean I think she is innocent

Ok boss!

 

[LetsSolvIt]

True. Trauma affects everyone differently. Kids can form memories at that age, they might not, though.

I can’t imagine those poor boys don’t have all kinds of issues around trauma. I remember stuff from when I was three. They may not have vivid memories of their dad but will probably remember their feelings of tension and uncertainty around the time he died and the sudden move. They will probably remember feelings related to family dynamics at the funeral and other gatherings later — the whispering, manipulations, voice tones, etc. So much of their early life experience was destablizing.

And think of their horror when they *do* learn of their father’s murder — probably from some child at school, or a TV news update on the case, or on the Internet. They must know about Uncle Charlie’s conviction and sentence, and that grandma’s in jail. Just that in real time might cause them to do some research and ask questions. How are mom and granddad answering them?

It just hit me though. I guess there is no chance the boys don’t know they were Dan Markel’s sons? They don’t have his last name. They don’t live in the town where they lived as a family. Do Ruth and Phil ever see the boys to keep the Markel family connection or have they been kept at bay for all these years? I guess the boys would have been kept in a cocoon not to know. OMO.

 

[amicuscurie]

I can’t imagine those poor boys don’t have all kinds of issues around trauma. I remember stuff from when I was three. They may not have vivid memories of their dad but will probably remember their feelings of tension and uncertainty around the time he died and the sudden move. They will probably remember feelings related to family dynamics at the funeral and other gatherings later — the whispering, manipulations, voice tones, etc. So much of their early life experience was destablizing.

And think of their horror when they *do* learn of their father’s murder — probably from some child at school, or a TV news update on the case, or on the Internet. They must know about Uncle Charlie’s conviction and sentence, and that grandma’s in jail. Just that in real time might cause them to do some research and ask questions. How are mom and granddad answering them?

It just hit me though. I guess there is no chance the boys don’t know they were Dan Markel’s sons? They don’t have his last name. They don’t live in the town where they lived as a family. Do Ruth and Phil ever see the boys to keep the Markel family connection or have they been kept at bay for all these years? I guess the boys would have been kept in a cocoon not to know. OMO.

I remember hearing on one of the bump calls that Charlie tells Donna the older boy needs to be spanked, because he won’t listen, or something to that effect. And then there is the recent entry we have seen in Donna’s planner that says to speak to Wendi about (name is redacted) getting help with “executive function” before starting high school.

There have been visits with the Markel family recently, so I’ve heard. Whether they’ve looked up any info on the internet I don’t know. It’s always been my opinion that possibly they have been told that it’s all lies, and not to look at it. In my opinion they may possibly have been told that Charlie and Donna are innocent or that Charlie was extorted, or that the jury was biased, or any number of things that we’ve been hearing Charlie and Donna say.

 

[Knitpicker]

I remember hearing on one of the bump calls that Charlie tells Donna the older boy needs to be spanked, because he won’t listen, or something to that effect. And then there is the recent entry we have seen in Donna’s planner that says to speak to Wendi about (name is redacted) getting help with “executive function” before starting high school.

There have been visits with the Markel family recently, so I’ve heard. Whether they’ve looked up any info on the internet I don’t know. It’s always been my opinion that possibly they have been told that it’s all lies, and not to look at it. In my opinion they may possibly have been told that Charlie and Donna are innocent or that Charlie was extorted, or that the jury was biased, or any number of things that we’ve been hearing Charlie and Donna say.

Yes, Charlie told Donna that the older boy should be spanked because he was throwing pencils at his brother and may harm his eyes.
Ruth M saw the boys the last day of school which was June 5th,

 

[Knitpicker]

Just as a reference-
Re: Conversation the other day on where Wendi lived when she moved w/boys to Miami.
Law and crime- State Hammers Charlie Adelson @21:17 mark.
Georgia asks Charlie where Wendi lived when she left Tallahassee.

Charlie says that Wendi lived with her parents in a “small” 2 bedroom apartment, but they had to get another one because it was too small.
So I doubt they waited a year to do so, right?

Georgia quickly changes the subject to cameras at the Adelson institute.
_________
Reviewing W’s testimony-she was specifically asked by Georgia “where did your parents live between 2012-2016. She said “Coral Springs”.
She did not even say at all her parents lived in Miami or had a place there. Very odd. Once again Georgia switched the subject.

 

[Knitpicker]

I can’t imagine those poor boys don’t have all kinds of issues around trauma. I remember stuff from when I was three. They may not have vivid memories of their dad but will probably remember their feelings of tension and uncertainty around the time he died and the sudden move. They will probably remember feelings related to family dynamics at the funeral and other gatherings later — the whispering, manipulations, voice tones, etc. So much of their early life experience was destablizing.

And think of their horror when they *do* learn of their father’s murder — probably from some child at school, or a TV news update on the case, or on the Internet. They must know about Uncle Charlie’s conviction and sentence, and that grandma’s in jail. Just that in real time might cause them to do some research and ask questions. How are mom and granddad answering them?

It just hit me though. I guess there is no chance the boys don’t know they were Dan Markel’s sons? They don’t have his last name. They don’t live in the town where they lived as a family. Do Ruth and Phil ever see the boys to keep the Markel family connection or have they been kept at bay for all these years? I guess the boys would have been kept in a cocoon not to know. OMO.

Ruth has seen the boys at least 2 times in the last 6 months. Once in December and then June. There seems to be at least another time as per her last few interviews (I forget which she mentioned it) other than those two times but she did not say when. I have watched all the YT videos she has been on. Last summer, Phil came to Florida with one of his grandchildren to see them.

 

[amicuscurie]

Just as a reference-
Re: Conversation the other day on where Wendi lived when she moved w/boys to Miami.
Law and crime- State Hammers Charlie Adelson @21:17 mark.
Georgia asks Charlie where Wendi lived when she left Tallahassee.

Charlie says that Wendi lived with her parents in a “small” 2 bedroom apartment, but they had to get another one because it was too small.
So I doubt they waited a year to do so, right?

Georgia quickly changes the subject to cameras at the Adelson institute.
_________
Reviewing W’s testimony-she was specifically asked by Georgia “where did your parents live between 2012-2016. She said “Coral Springs”.
She did not even say at all her parents lived in Miami or had a place there. Very odd. Once again Georgia switched the subject.

I remember seeing an address that was for a 3BR Townhouse. I don’t remember where. But that is interesting that Charlie said that. Perhaps I’m wrong. Is there a specific unit number listed on Wendi’s application for the work on the Tallahassee house that Patti found? I’d be curious.

ETA- just watched a video where Patty shows a photo of what she says is the application for work on the Tallahassee house that W filled out. Before Patty redacts the address, you can see she lists an address as 100 South Pointe Drive TH 13. Per the internet, that’s a 3BR Townhouse in Continuum. She shows pictures. There are 2 stories.

The state has a lease signed by Harvey, I’ve seen that somewhere. If it is for this 3BR, and it’s from May, 2014, that’s interesting.

ETA: Harvey signed a lease for 13K a month in May 2014, for a unit in Continuum, the state has redacted the address.

Zillow shows that TH 13 was listed in late July, 2014, for the amount of 13k per month. The listing was removed in early August, 2014.

It could be that H initially rented a 2BR, as Charlie said, and then moved to the 3BR in late July. BUT- why would the 3BR TH be fore the exact same rent, 13k a month?

Something isn’t adding up. But the state knows.

 

[Knitpicker]

I remember seeing an address that was for a 3BR Townhouse. I don’t remember where. But that is interesting that Charlie said that. Perhaps I’m wrong. Is there a specific unit number listed on Wendi’s application for the work on the Tallahassee house that Patti found? I’d be curious.

ETA- just watched a video where Patty shows a photo of what she says is the application for work on the Tallahassee house that W filled out. Before Patty redacts the address, you can see she lists an address as 100 South Pointe Drive TH 13. Per the internet, that’s a 3BR Townhouse in Continuum. She shows pictures. There are 2 stories.

The state has a lease signed by Harvey, I’ve seen that somewhere. If it is for this 3BR, and it’s from May, 2014, that’s interesting.

ETA: Harvey signed a lease for 13K a month in May 2014, for a unit in Continuum, the state has redacted the address.

Zillow shows that TH 13 was listed in late July, 2014, for the amount of 13k per month. The listing was removed in early August, 2014.

It could be that H initially rented a 2BR, as Charlie said, and then moved to the 3BR in late July. BUT- why would the 3BR TH be fore the exact same rent, 13k a month?

Something isn’t adding up. But the state knows.

On a 10 minute break so not much time-I believe the 2 bedroom was 12K a month. Are you sure the May 2014 lease is 13K a month?
I do remember that photo of the duplex. And being surprised it was only 2 bedrooms
I think it’s being sold now for a ridiculous amount (well at least to me it is).
So that means that D and H were paying over 25K a month for both apartments? (With 80K security for the 2 bedroom so sure same with the 3)With that kind of rent, Wendi should have definitely answered Georgias Q of “are your parents millionaires(or rich -I forget how she phrased it) with “Yes” lol

 

[amicuscurie]

T

On a 10 minute break so not much time-I believe the 2 bedroom was 12K a month. Are you sure the May 2014 lease is 13K a month?
I do remember that photo of the duplex. And being surprised it was only 2 bedrooms
I think it’s being sold now for a ridiculous amount (well at least to me it is).
So that means that D and H were paying over 25K a month for both apartments? (With 80K security for the 2 bedroom so sure same with the 3)With that kind of rent, Wendi should have definitely answered Georgias Q of “are your parents millionaires(or rich -I forget how she phrased it) with “Yes” lol

TH 13 is definitely 3 BR, that’s the address Wendi lists on the application to do work on the Tally house.

Where are you seeing any lease for a 2BR? I’ve only seen a lease signed by Harvey which doesn’t give the unit number.

On one of the bump calls, Donna is speaking to Charlie about Rob. She is talking about how he came to Harvey’s 70th. If I recall correctly, she refers to him going “downstairs.” TH 13 is a 2 story townhouse.

 

[Knitpicker]

T

TH 13 is definitely 3 BR, that’s the address Wendi lists on the application to do work on the Tally house.

Where are you seeing any lease for a 2BR? I’ve only seen a lease signed by Harvey which doesn’t give the unit number.

On one of the bump calls, Donna is speaking to Charlie about Rob. She is talking about how he came to Harvey’s 70th. If I recall correctly, she refers to him going “downstairs.” TH 13 is a 2 story townhouse.

Did you say a lease was signed in July 2014? You know what, it’s been a really busy 2 days brain wise. I may have read over your comment too fast. I’ll have to go over all your comments tomorrow night…..I think a problem is that Charlie said at trial that wendi moved into a very small place with his parents and they had to get another place…but when my brain is more clear I’ll read over everything again.

 

[Zedzded]

No it’s not coincidental. Aren’t we 99.99% sure Donna was in on the plot? If we are at least 99.99% sure, then it’s not a coincidence, I think we can make a logical deduction that it was part of the plan. I think you are hung up on where Wendi ‘lived’ or said she lived after she moved to S. Florida. Unless they can ‘find’ something that ties Wendi to the decision (maybe a money trail or email) before the murder about Donna and Harvey’s apartment lease, it’s a big nothing burger as it relates to ‘evidence’ on Wendi. It’s similar to all the other ‘indicators of guilt’ discussed in social media - assumption and conjuncture laced. I know you will probably say that’s me ‘defending’ Wendi, but it’s just a very realistic take on the data available AND stating that doesn’t mean I think she is innocent .

Yup I agree. The apartment rental doesn't really mean a hell of a lot.