FL - Jennifer Kesse, 24, Orlando, 24 Jan 2006 - #13

[ChatteringBirds]

The car was parked around 11am on the day she was missing. It was discovered a few days later. It was parked close to where she lived in a rough part of town. I've been there.

Welcome to Websleuths, nadia90!

 

[Otterplop]

My favorite suspect in this case is a coworker of Jennifer's whose initials are AF. He was fired in 2010 after saying his boss/Jennifer's other coworker, Johnny Campos, was in love with her and creepy. Jennifer did tell her dad about a married coworker who kept asking her out, which fits JC because AF was not married and I don't believe ever has been. Just a few years ago someone came forward saying they worked there and that AF was super creepy and obsessed with Jennifer, not JC. What's even weirder is that 29 days after AF was fired, an anonymous tip came into Orlando PD about Jennifer's body being buried in a field near AF's apartment. The field was searched and a dog hit on a cadaver having been there, but they couldn't find one (I'm assuming the remains were moved if they had been there, Jennifer's or not, who knows). Anyway, this coworker has since moved to Columbia, which IMO, if LE knows he's their guy it makes it a lot harder to make an arrest but I don't think impossible (?). I have no idea what relations the U.S has with Columbia and how hard an arrest would be for someone who I imagine is a dual citizen. Either way, this guy has posted really creepy stuff about Jennifer on FB and idk, it just makes a lot of sense to me that someone who knew her and was enraged by her recent vacation on top of already being obsessed with her, would snap. I read that AF also has a brother or nephew that left the U.S shortly after Jennifer's disappearance (speculation - plus I don't know if it was a brother or nephew lol). But yeah, I lean more towards someone knowing her having killed her, and then paying some young kid to park the car. Plus, this would give a coworker an alibi to be at work if they paid a random kid or their own nephew to park the car. This is all IMO of course, being creepy doesn't make someone a killer but yeah, I lean more towards obsessed person than I do maintenance worker or anything.

Does anyone else think AF could have been involved? Curious to know if anyone knows other details on the guy...

 

[DFWNF]

Oh I was so hoping with this topic being among the new posts that Jennifer had been found

 

[flgrl017]

Just watched the video and thought it was great! She echoed a lot of my own thoughts but added new info/ideas I hadn't considered.

I really liked how she defended the workers and pointed out that you get bad people in all races. I've always thought there has been way too much focus on these construction workers seemingly just because they were immigrants. Yes, it is reasonable to suspect them but with no evidence besides Jennifer saying they made her uncomfortable it's not really fair to get tunnel vision and only zero in on them and not consider other people. I've seen them being described as "dodgy" even by the Kesse family but what exactly makes them dodgy? Her brother said he tried to talk to them when they were sat in the van and they didn't even acknowledge him, well no **** if a man was pounding on my vehicle's window I'd ignore him until he left too. I was happy to hear Pat mention that also.

I did wonder if the crime had occurred the night before because, to me, it was perfectly conceivable the shower could still be wet the next day by the time her family arrived. I think Pat has convinced me otherwise now however it's still a possibility, for example the perp may have taken her somewhere and held her captive overnight before killing her and then dumping the car the following afternoon?

RE the location of the car, I've often thought that perhaps the perp intended to drop it back off at the place he took her from (bold move but possible) but got the wrong complex, hence why it was parked so close to her condo. Heck, he may have even asked someone else to do it and gave them a general idea of where to drop it and this person took it to the wrong complex? However the idea that he worked close by and therefore didn't want to dump the car too far away is a good one and not something I had considered!

I also wanted to highlight that she said the CCTV showed the suspect in all white clothing but it's been established this camera shows nearly every article of clothing as white, even when it's quite dark. We can't be sure of the colour except that it isn't black. (correct me if I'm wrong though please!)

The pizza worker theory is certainly interesting and if it hasn't already been explored by LE I hope they consider it

Just some thoughts after watching the video and recently looking into this case again!

I’ve never understood why people didn’t understand why the workers didn’t want to interact with Logan that day. He was being very aggressive towards them. He even said that one got down on his knees pleading that he hadn’t saw anything. I honestly don’t blame the guys in the truck for not engaging with him. The workers were minorities and probably felt intimidated. We need to look at this from their prospective too.

The shower wasn’t what I would describe as wet. Joyce clarified what she meant years later on Unconcluded. There was water in the corners around the bottles. Water will sit in the corners around the bottles for at least 24 hours from my experiments. I honestly wish Joyce had never described the shower as wet because I think it skewed public opinion to the morning. I wish she would have been clearer from the beginning about what she meant. My opinion definitely changed regarding when the shower could have been last used once I heard her on Unconluded.

You’re correct about the cameras. They do not know what color the clothing is. The police officers noticed their navy blue uniforms appeared white too.

 

[flgrl017]

I've always believed the car and where it was, and wasn't, found is the missing piece. I agree it was left there by someone who got the description of where to leave it wrong. Which begs the key question, why bring it back at all? The answer, to me, is to make it look like Jennifer disappeared from her residence, not from wherever she actually did. Following that logic, wherever she was must link back to the perpetrator. So she was abducted either from where she went the night before or that morning from work or from a stop on the way to work. Either way, the perpetrator knew her, and whereabouts she lived. If from work, it may have been premeditated, especially if they were the only ones there. Perhaps someone 'forgot' a file at home or other location and she drove them together to get it, never to be seen again. Or it started innocently, and hit the fan when they reached the second location.

I don't think the person on video is directly involved or even knew the significance of the car or whose it was. It sounds like a "hey man, here's 20 bucks to leave this car at the condos by the xyz. I told my xyz I'd drop it off, but forgot I have a dental appt, final exam, visit to my PO, lost my license, etc. and can't do it." The driver followed through because he knew he'd see the asker again. The driver wasn't thinking "I wonder if I walk down the street the camera will catch me incompletely and I'll be the luckiest POI ever." He either wasn't aware of, or wasn't concerned about the cameras; didn't realize Jennifer lived there, and likely didn't know there was a Jennifer in the first place. Not everyone follows the news, and seeing a piece (or poster) about a missing woman wouldn't mean anything to the driver unless it showed the car. At that point, he's not going to the police for fear of arrest, blackmail, deportation, the perpetrator, losing his spouse/kids/job, or any combo thereof. It's possible he doesn't even know he's on a video. If he does, he's no longer in the area. I'm using "he" here, as I see a young adult male, but you never know.

I haven't seen the pizza video so not sure what context it's in, but a couple of pizza delivery drivers who knew each other peripherally would make the above drop off possible. Yet, Jennifer wasn't stopping by for a slice at a closed pizzeria before 9am, and a delivery the night before doesn't make sense if she herself took her car. My sense is it's personal, and the timing isn't coincidental. Her returning from vacation is important, someone was stewing while she was gone and/or snapped once she was back. Within hours. My guess is she left that morning, and investigators know where she went or was headed. It follows that more information about the car is known. There's a waiting game on proof, but I'd bet a suspect has been identified. It could still be one of the workers who then enlisted the help of an unknowing drop off driver, but would she would have given one of them a ride out of the complex? I think a fuller scenario lies in unreleased camera/video from the complex. Two heads in a car isn't conclusive, but would narrow down when (and potentially to where) she left.

There has been a few comments by her friends and family about the poi from the video not being the actual perp. That’s always been interesting to me. I’ve even had the thought that maybe they know who the perp is and they have an alibi when the car was dropped off. Maybe that’s why there has been comments about the poi being an accomplice.

 

[flgrl017]

Please correct me if I am wrong - but I recall her car being seen driving erratically in the morning. I think it was rather close to her home and someone even reported glimpsing a struggle inside (like two people grabbing the wheel), but I don't think it was ever confirmed (and I might misremember to begin with).

Now if she was alive in the car in the morning (to cause the "erratically") then I feel like the perp was either waiting for her in her car (someone who knows her well enough to know to do that) and started driving after having e.g tied her up or similar; or it was someone she picked up on her way to work for some reason (more likely to be a pre-arranged thing with someone she knows); or maybe she was ambushed in the parking lot before she even got in (this is quite risky, so close to so many windows). Unlikely that a simple car drop-off would stand out like that.

I might of course misremember the details here! All just MOO.

That story is unconfirmed. Drew Kesse has stated they can not prove she was taken from Mosaic.
I think the couple likely saw another mid size black sedan that morning that was driving crazy coming out of the complex. Probably just someone driving distracted and/or late for work.
If Jennifer would have been able to fight more people would have noticed. Withing seconds of this sighting the car would have pulled onto Conroy Rd. It’s busy. There is little to no chance that someone else didn’t notice this.

 

[flgrl017]

My favorite suspect in this case is a coworker of Jennifer's whose initials are AF. He was fired in 2010 after saying his boss/Jennifer's other coworker, Johnny Campos, was in love with her and creepy. Jennifer did tell her dad about a married coworker who kept asking her out, which fits JC because AF was not married and I don't believe ever has been. Just a few years ago someone came forward saying they worked there and that AF was super creepy and obsessed with Jennifer, not JC. What's even weirder is that 29 days after AF was fired, an anonymous tip came into Orlando PD about Jennifer's body being buried in a field near AF's apartment. The field was searched and a dog hit on a cadaver having been there, but they couldn't find one (I'm assuming the remains were moved if they had been there, Jennifer's or not, who knows). Anyway, this coworker has since moved to Columbia, which IMO, if LE knows he's their guy it makes it a lot harder to make an arrest but I don't think impossible (?). I have no idea what relations the U.S has with Columbia and how hard an arrest would be for someone who I imagine is a dual citizen. Either way, this guy has posted really creepy stuff about Jennifer on FB and idk, it just makes a lot of sense to me that someone who knew her and was enraged by her recent vacation on top of already being obsessed with her, would snap. I read that AF also has a brother or nephew that left the U.S shortly after Jennifer's disappearance (speculation - plus I don't know if it was a brother or nephew lol). But yeah, I lean more towards someone knowing her having killed her, and then paying some young kid to park the car. Plus, this would give a coworker an alibi to be at work if they paid a random kid or their own nephew to park the car. This is all IMO of course, being creepy doesn't make someone a killer but yeah, I lean more towards obsessed person than I do maintenance worker or anything.

Does anyone else think AF could have been involved? Curious to know if anyone knows other details on the guy...

Look at the direction the poi was walking when he exited the camera view. I think he continued to walk south towards the Lake Ellenore area.
I think that either AF or JC maybe both know what happened.

I lean towards it being a professional hit. I also don’t think Jennifer was ever abducted. I think she went out Monday night and was murdered. Someone she trusted probably set her up.

 

[flgrl017]

I think the markings on the car hood are from a low palm plant like the ones pictured. I took these in Orlando a few weeks ago. I don’t think it was from a struggle. I think someone pulled her car into some type of vegetation. It could have even been in a parking lot. Sometimes the palm plants are in parking lots so it doesn’t necessarily have to go into the woods for this type of marking to occur.

 

[HCcoffee]

My favorite suspect in this case is a coworker of Jennifer's whose initials are AF. He was fired in 2010 after saying his boss/Jennifer's other coworker, Johnny Campos, was in love with her and creepy. Jennifer did tell her dad about a married coworker who kept asking her out, which fits JC because AF was not married and I don't believe ever has been. Just a few years ago someone came forward saying they worked there and that AF was super creepy and obsessed with Jennifer, not JC. What's even weirder is that 29 days after AF was fired, an anonymous tip came into Orlando PD about Jennifer's body being buried in a field near AF's apartment. The field was searched and a dog hit on a cadaver having been there, but they couldn't find one (I'm assuming the remains were moved if they had been there, Jennifer's or not, who knows). Anyway, this coworker has since moved to Columbia, which IMO, if LE knows he's their guy it makes it a lot harder to make an arrest but I don't think impossible (?). I have no idea what relations the U.S has with Columbia and how hard an arrest would be for someone who I imagine is a dual citizen. Either way, this guy has posted really creepy stuff about Jennifer on FB and idk, it just makes a lot of sense to me that someone who knew her and was enraged by her recent vacation on top of already being obsessed with her, would snap. I read that AF also has a brother or nephew that left the U.S shortly after Jennifer's disappearance (speculation - plus I don't know if it was a brother or nephew lol). But yeah, I lean more towards someone knowing her having killed her, and then paying some young kid to park the car. Plus, this would give a coworker an alibi to be at work if they paid a random kid or their own nephew to park the car. This is all IMO of course, being creepy doesn't make someone a killer but yeah, I lean more towards obsessed person than I do maintenance worker or anything.

Does anyone else think AF could have been involved? Curious to know if anyone knows other details on the guy...

Who are these coworkers? I've only heard about her boss supposedly having an obsession with her but not this other coworker, do you have a source for this information? Would love to read more!

I’ve never understood why people didn’t understand why the workers didn’t want to interact with Logan that day. He was being very aggressive towards them. He even said that one got down on his knees pleading that he hadn’t saw anything. I honestly don’t blame the guys in the truck for not engaging with him. The workers were minorities and probably felt intimidated. We need to look at this from their prospective too.

The shower wasn’t what I would describe as wet. Joyce clarified what she meant years later on Unconcluded. There was water in the corners around the bottles. Water will sit in the corners around the bottles for at least 24 hours from my experiments. I honestly wish Joyce had never described the shower as wet because I think it skewed public opinion to the morning. I wish she would have been clearer from the beginning about what she meant. My opinion definitely changed regarding when the shower could have been last used once I heard her on Unconluded.

You’re correct about the cameras. They do not know what color the clothing is. The police officers noticed their navy blue uniforms appeared white too.

Yes exactly, I can't imagine that her brother approached them calmly to ask but was likely being aggressive and confrontational so it's no wonder they didn't want to engage him... much less if they couldn't speak English well and were having a hard time understanding him. I haven't heard about the worker pleading with him but if that's true then it's very sad

I never knew that regarding the shower, that certainly changes things! I can't remember where I saw this info now so I will try to find the source but I'm sure I read that her phone was pinging off towers during the night which suggests to me she left after the call with Rob, or at least her phone did. If this is true it would absolutely point to something sinister happening to her the night prior and not the morning of.

 

[nadia90]

Morning abduction in my mind. Almost certainly. If you really review the facts of the case it is obvious. Look at the website in her name dotcom. Read the first page information

 

[flgrl017]

Who are these coworkers? I've only heard about her boss supposedly having an obsession with her but not this other coworker, do you have a source for this information? Would love to read more!



Yes exactly, I can't imagine that her brother approached them calmly to ask but was likely being aggressive and confrontational so it's no wonder they didn't want to engage him... much less if they couldn't speak English well and were having a hard time understanding him. I haven't heard about the worker pleading with him but if that's true then it's very sad

I never knew that regarding the shower, that certainly changes things! I can't remember where I saw this info now so I will try to find the source but I'm sure I read that her phone was pinging off towers during the night which suggests to me she left after the call with Rob, or at least her phone did. If this is true it would absolutely point to something sinister happening to her the night prior and not the morning of.

A guy that the internet has nicknamed Adam Frank. He was spoke of on Unconcluded on episode 31 and 49. Read blink’s blog too. It’s good.

Logan gave an interview on House of Broken Dreams Episode 1 where he spoke of the worker kneeling down.

 

[flgrl017]

Morning abduction in my mind. Almost certainly. If you really review the facts of the case it is obvious. Look at the website in her name dotcom. Read the first page information

What facts make it obvious? The timeline has been debated since 2006 for good reason.

 

[nadia90]

What facts make it obvious? The timeline has been debated since 2006 for good reason.

Read the website then come back.

 

[flgrl017]

Read the website then come back.

I have, multiple times.

 

[Otterplop]

Logan's cell phone and Jennifer's cell phone are shut off at the same time during the evening, and if you map the last ping it's right by the coworker's apartment. Ping science is convoluted and debated so I won't go too hard on that, but both phones being shut off, presumed manually, in the evening when Jennifer was so safety-focused makes no sense in regards to a morning abduction. That part for me is the biggest support of an evening abduction, plus clothes were folded on the bed for an outfit - why would you lay this out when leaving for work after you're dressed? Maybe some people do that but I'm not one of them lol.

 

[flgrl017]

Logan's cell phone and Jennifer's cell phone are shut off at the same time during the evening, and if you map the last ping it's right by the coworker's apartment. Ping science is convoluted and debated so I won't go too hard on that, but both phones being shut off, presumed manually, in the evening when Jennifer was so safety-focused makes no sense in regards to a morning abduction. That part for me is the biggest support of an evening abduction, plus clothes were folded on the bed for an outfit - why would you lay this out when leaving for work after you're dressed? Maybe some people do that but I'm not one of them lol.

I’m not sure why people don’t focus on what you mentioned regarding the pings. We get so caught up debating the location over the years and that just creates confusion. The focus needs to be on when they stopped pinging. We need to keep it simple! Especially since they have said that Jennifer was always reachable by cell phone and her phone never went straight to voice mail. It’s very unlikely she turned them off willingly. Whatever happened to Jennifer most likey occurred close to when those phones stopped pinging. From Drew’s statements, I almost certain they sent their last ping between 10:20 and 10:40 pm Monday night.

 

[nadia90]

Imo at least two workers parked right beside her vehicle and Took her Tuesday morning. Quick into the vehicle and one took her vehicle.

 

[fsngruv]

Logan's cell phone and Jennifer's cell phone are shut off at the same time during the evening, and if you map the last ping it's right by the coworker's apartment. Ping science is convoluted and debated so I won't go too hard on that, but both phones being shut off, presumed manually, in the evening when Jennifer was so safety-focused makes no sense in regards to a morning abduction. That part for me is the biggest support of an evening abduction, plus clothes were folded on the bed for an outfit - why would you lay this out when leaving for work after you're dressed? Maybe some people do that but I'm not one of them lol.

From what I understood, she had a couple different outfits out on her bed that went with a new pair of shoes she was wanting to wear. The shoes were missing. Makes sense to me that she wore one of the outfits that were out and left the others, maybe because I have done this myself.

Morning abduction in my mind. Almost certainly. If you really review the facts of the case it is obvious. Look at the website in her name dotcom. Read the first page information

I agree, her family stated when they went to her apartment at noon, there was a wet towel, a missing outfit and new shoes, her contacts were missing, just seems like to me, she got up in the morning and got ready.

Though the possibilities she left in the evening are fair enough to consider. Not sure how much the timeline helps narrowing down a suspect, maybe it should? So I think it's a worthy consideration to question the timeline.

 

[HCcoffee]

Logan's cell phone and Jennifer's cell phone are shut off at the same time during the evening, and if you map the last ping it's right by the coworker's apartment. Ping science is convoluted and debated so I won't go too hard on that, but both phones being shut off, presumed manually, in the evening when Jennifer was so safety-focused makes no sense in regards to a morning abduction. That part for me is the biggest support of an evening abduction, plus clothes were folded on the bed for an outfit - why would you lay this out when leaving for work after you're dressed? Maybe some people do that but I'm not one of them lol.

Sorry I'm confused. Logan is her brother, do you mean the cell phone of Logan's friend who had left his phone at her condo before? I'm still not sure what the significance is of both these phones powering down at the same time unless you mean she took the friend's phone out with her too? I've not heard about the ping showing by the coworkers apartment, I think I need to listen to the Unconcluded podcast to get more info, thanks guys

 

[HCcoffee]

I agree, her family stated when they went to her apartment at noon, there was a wet towel, a missing outfit and new shoes, her contacts were missing, just seems like to me, she got up in the morning and got ready.

Though the possibilities she left in the evening are fair enough to consider. Not sure how much the timeline helps narrowing down a suspect, maybe it should? So I think it's a worthy consideration to question the timeline.

It was clarified by her family that the clothes weren't neatly laid out like she was planning specific outfits but rather strewn across her bed. IMO that points to both abduction possibilities - night before (if she decided to go out last minute and was rushing to find something to wear) or morning of (rushing to pick out something for work because she was running late).