FL - Mass Shooting at Pulse nightclub, Orlando, 12 June 2016 #2

[tehcloser]

Omar Mateen, whose bloody siege inside a packed Orlando gay nightclub ended when SWAT teams stormed the building and killed him, was a radical Muslim who followed Marcus Dwayne Robertson, a law enforcement source said.

“It is no coincidence that this happened in Orlando,” said a law enforcement source familiar with Robertson’s history of recruiting terrorists and inciting violence. “Mateen was enrolled in [Robertson’s online] Fundamental Islamic Knowledge Seminary.”
​

http://www.fox29.com/news/158464009-story


When the Tsarnaev brothers bombed the Boston Marathon, no one claimed it was because of jogger-phobia.

When Farook & Malik shot up the San Bernardino Inland Regional Center, no one claimed it was because of hatred of public health workers.

When the planes flew into the WTC towers, no one claimed it was due to a hatred of NYC office workers.

Those were Islamic terrorism, and this was Islamic terrorism. Islamic terrorists hate everybody who is is not one of them.

Do they stone joggers, health workers and the like ? Have they put out videos specifically calling for their deaths?

 

[deoneta]

I don't know if he was still on any watch lists or not. Haven't gotten up to speed this morning. However, the Senate voted it down to deny people, on a federal terrorism watch list, the ability to purchase guns. Not getting political. j.s.

The problem with watch lists and no fly lists is that innocuous circumstances may trigger a person being added with no real follow up. Conservative pundit Tucker Carson ended up on a no fly list because of his travel history and remained because there was no investigation. He got off only because he realized he was on the list and took action to get himself removed. There are terror related investigations in every state. No telling how many dormant investigations there are. I don't know if it's a matter of insufficient manpower as some security experts have been saying in various interviews or a lack of proper focus, but it's a mess and a real problem. All MOO.

 

[glf]

Absolutely! I'm an LPN, and blood is flown in from anyplace that has supplies to share. Good thinking!

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Jews were singled out for the ethnicity, not for praising violence. There is nothing laudable about using social media to praise the killing of innocents. We are not talking about armies here. We are talking about the much loved children...husbands and wives of people who are hideously killed to...promote a religious theology. If you post in FB or Twitter that you are a sympathizer of Isis, this is a far cry from "supporting Jews" vs. the Nazis. It does not make us Nazis. It makes us intolerant of people as vicious, as deadly as the Nazis.

Agreed~~but my whole point was just because they are sympathizers of Isis~~doesn't mean LE can act upon that. If they are in America, they have the same freedoms as you and I. I'm not saying whatsoever that I agree with their stance, but it is like saying just because Nazi supporters in America organize and demonstrate their beliefs on American soil they should all be arrested~~they have the same rights to demonstrate their beliefs just like you and me. THAT IS~~until they ACT on those beliefs~~then it is a whole new ballgame.

Another example would be anti-abortion activists. They demonstrate their beliefs by organizing protests~~just because they believe abortion should be illegal, should they be arrested because of their beliefs? No, not until they ACT upon those beliefs.

That's where the slippery slope comes in, IMO. Do I agree with Nazi demonstrators or anti-abortionists~~No, but I do believe in the rights that every American has been given is this great country America! There is a fine line between allowing Americans to voice their beliefs and imprisoning them because of what they believe.

God Bless America, God Bless my fellow Americans who tragically died yesterday, may they rest in peace. :rose:

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Only Islamic? What about all the other shooters that were not Islamic?

Those situations are different. Those shooters were never asked out on a date and were bullied growing up, so it's understandable when they murder people. (/sarcasm)

 

[rsd1200]

Just heard Ron Johnson of Wisconsin interviewed on FNC. The best summation of cases like these I've ever heard: "What do we do about people who are not guilty yet?"

Just like anything else. I can suspect, and make calls all I want, reporting to LE that my neighbor is a serial killer, but until there is concrete evidence, (usually caught w/a body), then there is nothing they can do about it, and I just have to live next to him. (example. my neighbor is not a serial killer.) We live in America, they just don't arrest people b/c other people find you weird, or extreme. You have to be breaking a law. If not, there would be a couple people I know of, in prison, for making public threats against our elected officials.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Where all the excuses for Mateen like there are anytime we see a white person kill people? What mental illness did he have? What was his childhood like?

 

[rsd1200]

This discussion is about a mass murder by an Islamic terrorist. If you want to discuss other shootings, you might consider starting a thread about them.

Yes, and it is about this particular man, and his particular hate, and his particular pledge to ISIS, and it is not about every other Muslim, and person of Islamic faith, in the USA, who did not commit this act.

 

[glf]

I wasn't trying to be hateful, I just don't understand this type of lifestyle. But I believe everyone is entitled to live their life the way they choose.

 

[sonjay]

Where all the excuses for Mateen like there are anytime we see a white person kill people? What mental illness did he have? What was his childhood like?

He was an Islamic terrorist. That alone is all the explanation we need for why he did what he did.

When someone (any someone, of any race/color/religion/creed/religious-political belief/etc) goes and does something like this, and they're not an Islamic terrorist, we look for the reasons. If there's nothing in their background to indicate why they would do it, we start looking for mental illness, etc.

But when the reason they did it is abundantly clear, we needn't look for mental illness as a possible cause. We know why. In this case, Mateen made it abundantly clear why he did this: he was an Islamic terrorist.

 

[deoneta]

Where all the excuses for Mateen like there are anytime we see a white person kill people? What mental illness did he have? What was his childhood like?

There is a difference between making excuses and looking for reasons. In this case, the killer has provided his motivation, but I've seen plenty of speculation as to influence of his Taliban supporting father, the possibility that he might have a mental illness, the idea that he was an angry social misfit who hated everybody and the theory that he could have been a repressed gay man. All MOO.

 

[kaen]

I am extremely saddened by what happened to these innocent men and women. The gunmen held hostages for hours so I am sure the police have a fair sense of his state of mind and reasons for doing this based on the conversations he had with their negotiator. There were people in the bathroom with him who would be able to add to the information about him.

Why does this have to devolve into Islam or LGBT driven arguments as if we know or have the right to say with any assuridty? I doubt that there was one exclusive thing that drove this monster. We can't prove what was in his deranged heart or mind beyond what we hear from the journalists. The LEO will only piece together what they can and make suppositions.

What I think is true is that whenever religions (any) espouse what God will do to X or Y based on their behavior, it is a bastardized retelling of a story that has been sown based on age old beliefs. Not a single person has heard the word of God directly as far as I know. Anyone who goes forward with destructive actions that are in the name of word of God are taking a societal interpretation of the word of God for justification of harming and dehumanizing another group be they another religion, LGBT, women, or whomever.

I also know that the LGBT community lives in fear on a daily basis. It is impossible to feel safe and comfortable because true hatred of LGBTpeople exists--- institutionally and individually. As a young child I was taught to fear and hate those in the LGBT community based on religion and "community value" and I am disgusted whenever I think of the small minded and bigoted people who were my role models who indoctrinated me.

This massacre appears to have been borne from fanaticism based on a woven set of beliefs that made this man feel that he was right to target this club and these people.

My heart goes out to each victim, their families, and the first responders who have to process this scene.

 

[rsd1200]

Isn't that what they did with the bikers in Waco? They arrested them all and charged all of them with engaging in organized criminal activity.

That's not sympathizing. That's acting. Those were 1% gangs. Very different animal than most of your ordinary bikers.

 

[tehcloser]

I wasn't trying to be hateful, I just don't understand this type of lifestyle. But I believe everyone is entitled to live their life the way they choose.

I'm sorry. My reply was one of those knee jerk reactions in times of #omgihatethisworldstopit that I warn against. Being 50 something, and being raised southern Baptist in a small town in Texas I get things. I know it's not easy for some but I know people are trying.

 

[rsd1200]

You mean, they arrested the surviving ones that were on the shootout scene? If a biker was sitting at home just sympathizing, did they arrest that one?

No, they did not. Just the 1% ers on the scene. The 1%ers who weren't there were not.

 

[Treelights]

I am extremely saddened by what happened to these innocent men and women. The gunmen held hostages for hours so I am sure the police have a fair sense of his state of mind and reasons for doing this based on the conversations he had with their negotiator. There were people in the bathroom with him who would be able to add to the information about him.

Why does this have to devolve into Islam or LGBT driven arguments as if we know or have the right to say with any assuridty? I doubt that there was one exclusive thing that drove this monster. We can't prove what was in his deranged heart or mind beyond what we hear from the journalists. The LEO will only piece together what they can and make suppositions.

What I think is true is that whenever religions (any) espouse what God will do to X or Y based on their behavior, it is a bastardized retelling of a story that has been sown based on age old beliefs. Not a single person has heard the word of God directly as far as I know. Anyone who goes forward with destructive actions that are in the name of word of God are taking a societal interpretation of the word of God for justification of harming and dehumanizing another group be they another religion, LGBT, women, or whomever.

I also know that the LGBT community lives in fear on a daily basis. It is impossible to feel safe and comfortable because true hatred of LGBTpeople exists--- institutionally and individually. As a young child I was taught to fear and hate those in the LGBT community based on religion and "community value" and I am disgusted whenever I think of the small minded and bigoted people who were my role models who indoctrinated me.

This massacre appears to have been borne from fanaticism based on a woven set of beliefs that made this man feel that he was right to target this club and these people.

My heart goes out to each victim, their families, and the first responders who have to process this scene.

Again, his allegiance to ISIS on the 911 call speaks for itself. He called 911. He pledged allegiance to ISIS. By that I can use reasoning that it was HATE and it was his Terroristic Radical Beliefs.

IMOO.

 

[Sonya610]

I accept that he did this as Isis. What I don't accept is that he did not target the lgbt community because he did. Some seem to think that they are two separate things. They are not . Imo To ignore that this club and these people were targeted...is wrong. It's like demeaning to the victims. And they have been treated as less far too long as it is.

I think everyone that believes ISIS was the primary motive also believes he intentionally chose gay targets because he did not like them and believed they could be righteously exterminated. No argument there.

Look at the Paris attackers, they decided they were going to commit large scale terrorist attacks and while choosing victim groups/venues they set their sites on the Eagles of Death Metal concert (they wanted to target the American band members, two birds with one stone). No one argued that the attack had to be ISIS motivated OR simply an extreme hatred for American rock bands, but couldn't be both.

The problem is many people do not want to believe this was ISIS motivated, so they are going to say it is strictly a lone wolf anti-gay attack OR mental illness. They have deep seated reasons to reject both motives because that would conflict with their established belief system.

 

[stmarysmead]

ISIS is the sect that has twisted Islam into their own specific religion. Sharia Law is totally different. ISIS kills more Muslims/Islamic people than they do any other group. When ISIS told the Islamic religious leaders to promote their brand of Islam, and the leaders refused, they slaughtered them.

Can you explain why 10 Muslims nations that are not part of Isis, have laws calling for the death penalty for homosexuality?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...where-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death/

 

[lstiff]

frompresser

he was in bathroom with 4-5 people throughout

he was cool and calm

20 people in the other bathroom hiding

On phone with cops

when asked about collatral damage "under investigation"

no comment video surveliance

barracaded hostage sitution

talk of bombs and explosives

he was not asking for anything

people in club in danger upon entry

no explosive recovered

able to get most peopleout of dance floor at onset

he gave a time limit to cops casuing them to enter

no shots were fired by him for the three hours in bathroom

only press conferance today

from early learnings this am NBC

worked in juv detention center in Fort Pierce

wanted to be police officer

Odd that he didn't shoot anyone else in the 3 hours.

Exactly. I read the Eddie Justice texts and he was alive at 2:39 but now he's on the deceased list so obviously the killer found him between those times. I'm confused by this.

Well, no. I didn't decide he was an Islamic terrorist. I'm going by what he himself said. And what the FBI said. And what the evidence tells us. Omar Mateen was an Islamic terrorist.

This. Agree.

People lined up in Jacksonville to donate blood.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/blood-donation-centers-in-jacksonville

Good news! I'm glad that people are still donating today and hopefully the rest of the week.

I think your key word is actually acts~~LE pretty much has their hands tied. Unfortunately, until they act we cannot do anything lest we become like Hitler. During WW II, if you were even thought to be a Jewish sympathizer, you were put into a concentration camp. I think that is why JJenny said it was a slippery slope. There is a fine line between sympathizing and acting.

Agree.

Florida doesn't allow legal concealed carry in a bar or the bar area of a restaurant, so almost certainly the club was legally a gun-free zone. Now if only we could get criminals to honor these laws.

This makes me the most mad and sick. I love when people say "where were the good guys with guns?" Well obeying the law and not carrying their weapons into a gun-free zone where it is posted that you can't carry a gun. For the love of good things, stop with this comment (not you) and think about it before you type it out. Law abiding citizens who have CCP or personal guns purchased legally are just as vulnerable as the anti gun folks and those who don't own or carry a gun. IMO of course.

You know what's really sad, how many more names we are going to learn. How many families are going to be torn apart. Such unnecessary cruelty in a world where it's already complicated enough. And here we are, again, stuck trying to figure out how to keep people from hurting others with no clear plan, no easy fix, no easy answers.

I agree

I hate that these horrible situations bring about debates and discussions on gun laws, terrorists and hate crimes that target minorities or specific groups of people. I know it needs to be addressed, discussed and changes made but where do you even start with that? Close the boarders? Well that isn't going to help with terrorists already in the U.S. or people who convert to these beliefs.

IMO I think part of the problem (and I truly believe this) is the lack of rules and standards that were once in place that are slowly fading out. I'm not saying specifically that one group is right or wrong but the fact that we are now throwing all the rules out the window b/c it's offensive, sets us up for mass chaos. The fact that people are not wanting genders on birth certificates b/c the child is too young to identify with what gender he/she wants, is a problem. Not being able to label a Muslim terrorist a Muslim terrorist b/c it is offensive is a problem. Grouping all gun owners, Muslims and extreme thinkers together assuming guilt, is a problem. I don't have any idea what the solution is but I know that it has to start with obeying the law and rules that our generation of children wants to throw out b/c it's offensive to some. We (parents) raise our children with a set of rules and whey they are old enough to say they don't want to follow them, we just say "okay" so we don't get them upset. I think America needs to be upset, you can't save people and their lives by wishing bad away or sending love and positive thoughts to the bad guys. It just doesn't work like that. We have to be aware and prepared.
I am rambling so I apologize for the long post. I am still beside myself that this happened.

IMO IDK *shrug*

 

[Canaille]

And managed to get a gun license even though he was investigated by the FBI! And it was definitely those people who love political correctness that made that happen!

But, I thought I just read in a link posted here, that the investigations were inconclusive. I have a feeling it was, for the FBI, a "damned if we do, damned if we don't" thing.