FL - Mass Shooting at Pulse nightclub, Orlando, 12 June 2016 #2

[Sonya610]

It's mind boggling to me that you can have a radical Muslim slaughter people and it gets deflected on to every other group of people in existence.

Oh no....not every group. Not even the group that was directly responsible.

It will all be blamed on the same group that they blame everything else on. Facts won't change the rhetoric.

Speaking for the group that always gets blamed I say this: "We had nothing to do with this, in fact we have been telling you this would happen. Now that it HAS happened don't go blaming us just because we told you so. Go hug a terrorist, make yourself feel better and leave us out of your blame game."

 

[sonjay]

Very few mass murderers here kill in mass because of religion. In fact it is rare and most mass murderers don't murder others where the motive for their killings was based on their religion. Now since 2009 when Major Hasan murdered many at Fort Hood because of his fanatical Islamic faith there have been several now who have murdered in the name of fanatical Islam. There have been many casualties plus countless injuries sustained when a Islamic terrorist/s has struck on our soil. The victim count keeps getting higher and higher when it comes to those murdered by ISIS sympathizers who also have radical Islamic beliefs. The ones now who are not making it a rare occurrence are the ISIS radical Muslim Islamists who are doing it on our soil more often.

It doesn't matter how many gun laws we enact. We will never be able to keep firearms away from the ones hell bent on taking the weapon to use it against human beings. It is a proven fact that criminals do not respect laws no matter what they are.

We lose thousands of more lives every year due to individual murderers against individual victims. The yearly mass shootings cant begin to compare to the lives lost by other offenders. 67% of them were firearm homicides and 33% were from other methods. The 33% are just as dead as the other 67%. Those victims are in the thousands too.

The common denominator in most of the homicides which happen daily is the firearm used was obtained illegally. Look at all the murders or attempted murders that happen everyday in LA, Detroit, Chicago, Memphis etc. These homicides are being done by ex-felons and gang members. They do not follow gun laws. They love restricting the actual legal gun owner to possess one. That is why these mass shooters hit places they know are almost always a gun free zone. That is never a coincidence but by design. Even this guy knew the cop's handgun would be no match for an .223 semi-automatic that he used to carry out these murders. That is like having a peashooter against a .50 caliber.

There is no way to stop someone from getting a gun. We have two open borders where gunrunners are bringing in high powered weapons to those who cant get one legally. It is like everything else in our history when we ban something. All it winds up doing is making the illegal sellers into billionaires now just like it made the liquor runners into millionaires back during prohibition.

IMO

BBM. Very good point. We not only need to keep Islamic terrorists out of the US, we need to tighten up border security to keep out the gunrunners.

 

[rob]

Quote: "In a series of tweets today, Westboro Baptist Church, the extremist Christian cult that is pretty much the definition of a faith-based hate group, claimed that the victims of the Orlando nightclub massacre brought their murders upon themselves because they were gay. "

WBC might make you hate them, but at least they don't kill people.
MOO

 

[rsd1200]

He could have purchased a firearm even if he had been a felon. Just not legally. If laws against murder and terrorism didn't stop this Islamic terrorist, then a little thing like a firearm purchase prohibition certainly wouldn't have stopped him.

But quite honestly, what would it hurt? That's like saying lets not have laws against murder b/c it's going to happen anyway. Let's not have laws against child abuse b/c the pedophiles are going to do it anyway. I own guns. I've never had a problem walking into a firearms store and waiting 5 minutes for my background check. I've ordered them off of the internet and picked them up at a local dealer, it's no big deal really. I don't understand not at least putting the precaution in place. One of the guys I bought from said you'd be surprised at the felons who come in to try and buy and are flagged. What if someone on a terror list came into buy and the flag went up? At least there would be a flag to report that this guy was trying to buy a weapon.

 

[sonjay]

That's not the point.

The point is there are Christians who would be happy to live in a country ruled by laws of the bible - even the harshest laws and most violent punishments - the way countries live under fundamentalist Islam. No, those Christians aren't turning into terrorists and killing people, but they have the same sense of right and wrong, crime and punishment, and justice in their hearts. They would be running from the Bible the same way ISIS has run afoul of the Kuran.

Does that in any way justify or excuse this heinous act by this Islamic terrorist, who was following the commandments of his religion?

This was Islamic terrorism. Period. Bringing up Christians, McVeigh, WBC, and other extraneous factors into this discussion is pointless. This was Islamic terrorism. We need to stop Islamic terrorist.

 

[gregjrichards]

I'm still very shocked, very troubled and deeply saddened by this incident all those innocent lives gone. It's just unbelievable and heartbreaking those poor families. I hope CARIIS and all our local members and guests are coping today it must be a terrible shock.

I just wondered how it is it being covered in the U.S media has there been much criticism of the FBI? There has been some criticism of them in the press here but I'm very aware that they must have goodness knows how many people on the watchlist and they must have prevented countless attacks globally. Unfortunately they can't prevent all attacks particularly ones by an individual. I know that MI5 and GCHQ don't have the ability to track everyone who is an extremist and they have to make a call on which people are the most likely to commit acts of terror. they have LGBT clubs here in the U.K have been told to increase security I heard on the news.

Thanks for all your news updates and discussion they have been very informative as always.

 

[sonjay]

But quite honestly, what would it hurt? That's like saying lets not have laws against murder b/c it's going to happen anyway. Let's not have laws against child abuse b/c the pedophiles are going to do it anyway. I own guns. I've never had a problem walking into a firearms store and waiting 5 minutes for my background check. I've ordered them off of the internet and picked them up at a local dealer, it's no big deal really. I don't understand not at least putting the precaution in place. One of the guys I bought from said you'd be surprised at the felons who come in to try and buy and are flagged. What if someone on a terror list came into buy and the flag went up? At least there would be a flag to report that this guy was trying to be a weapon.

And what happens when someone is flagged? Absolutely nothing.

And it would hurt innocent people who get incorrectly flagged. There's no way to get yourself off the watch list. People on the watch list should be watched. Investigated. Surveilled. But unless and until the watch list starts being handled in a constitutional manner that protects the rights of innocent Americans, it should not be used to curtail our rights.

 

[rob]

Don't put words in my mouth. I just said I know a lot of folks who would like a religious legal system instituted in our country based on the Bible. I don't know a lot of Christians who are paving the way for gay rights. I am a Christian and am for gay rights. But, I'm kind of a minority in that line of thought where I'm from. There's also Christian pastors who preach that gays should be put behind electric fences, and planes should go overhead and drop food for them, until they just die of natural causes, and that way they'll be out of our population. There's ignorant, hateful, dangerous, people in all walks of life, who interpret and twist what they read to fit their own agenda. j.s. Pointing no fingers though.

I've been a Christian for 40 years, attended and visited many churches, NEVER heard any of that.

 

[Sonya610]

What if someone on a terror list came into buy and the flag went up? At least there would be a flag to report that this guy was trying to be a weapon.

Problem is you have to trust the motives of the people creating that "no guns terror list". If you don't trust their motives then it is seen as a big fat loophole that can and will be abused to target political enemies.

I could absolutely see cries of disparate impact too. How come the majority of people on the gun restricted terror list are _____??? Is it racism? Some other form of bias? The list needs to include a whole lot more _____ folks too so find some and put them on it.

A list like that would become very public and very open to scrutiny and demographic "fairness".

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Per CNN: 29 shooting victims remain hospitalized. Five are said to be in grave condition. Please keep the victims and their families in your prayers.

 

[Paige SC]

Does that in any way justify or excuse this heinous act by this Islamic terrorist, who was following the commandments of his religion?

This was Islamic terrorism. Period. Bringing up Christians, McVeigh, WBC, and other extraneous factors into this discussion is pointless. This was Islamic terrorism. We need to stop Islamic terrorist.

It's deflection at its finest. One of the worst islamic terror attacks on American soil and we're discussing Westbro Church, Ted Cruz and obscure, crazy preachers. None of whom have a damn thing to do with the execution of 50 innocents and injuring over 50 more.

 

[bluesneakers]

Does that in any way justify or excuse this heinous act by this Islamic terrorist, who was following the commandments of his religion?

This was Islamic terrorism. Period. Bringing up Christians, McVeigh, WBC, and other extraneous factors into this discussion is pointless. This was Islamic terrorism. We need to stop Islamic terrorist.

I'm sorry you got the impression I was somehow trying to justify or excuse the shooting in Orlando. No, that was not my intent.

My point was your argument had nothing to do with rsd1200's point. That was all. But. Let's let it go and stick closer to topic, okay? Thanks.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

That's not the point.

The point is there are Christians who would be happy to live in a country ruled by laws of the bible - even the harshest laws and most violent punishments - the way countries live under fundamentalist Islam. No, those Christians aren't turning into terrorists and killing people, but they have the same sense of right and wrong, crime and punishment, and justice in their hearts. They would be running from the Bible the same way ISIS has run afoul of the Kuran.

WOW! That is lumping Christians altogether is it not? Seems very generalized and quite biased. Do you detest Christians in general perhaps?

BTW/ I am very law, and order, and I have no problem with the laws of the land I happen to live in. I am also a Christian and I don't have hate in my heart for anyone.

 

[bluesneakers]

WOW! That is lumping ALL Christians is it not?

BTW/ I am very law, and order, and I have no problem with the laws of the land I happen to live in. I am also a Christian and I don't have hate in my heart for anyone.

I wasn't lumping anyone. I did not say ALL Christians. I'm sorry if you got that impression.

 

[sonjay]

I'm sorry you got the impression I was somehow trying to justify or excuse the shooting in Orlando. No, that was not my intent.

My point was your argument had nothing to do with rsd1200's point. That was all. But. Let's let it go and stick closer to topic, okay? Thanks.

Yes, let's. No more WBC. No more McVeigh. No more "but this crazy guy over here said thus-and-such." Let's focus on Islamic terrorism, and on the innocent victims of this Islamic terrorist.

 

[dotr]

Brief, upsetting footage from phone of female victim.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...l-wages-war-on-gays-in-the-west-after-omar-m/

Live
Orlando shooting: 'Gays should be punished by God,' says gunman Omar Mateen's father


Seddique Mateen

 

[rsd1200]

Does that in any way justify or excuse this heinous act by this Islamic terrorist, who was following the commandments of his religion?

This was Islamic terrorism. Period. Bringing up Christians, McVeigh, WBC, and other extraneous factors into this discussion is pointless. This was Islamic terrorism. We need to stop Islamic terrorist.

Maybe so, but I think I see their point, we have not been doing a very good job at stopping those other kinds of terrorists now have we? If we can't stop one type of extremist nutjob, then it's going to be equally hard to stop another type of extremist religious nutjob.

 

[rsd1200]

Problem is you have to trust the motives of the people creating that "no guns terror list". If you don't trust their motives then it is seen as a big fat loophole that can and will be abused to target political enemies.

I could absolutely see cries of disparate impact too. How come the majority of people on the gun restricted terror list are _____??? Is it racism? Some other form of bias? The list needs to include a whole lot more _____ folks too so find some and put them on it.

A list like that would become very public and very open to scrutiny and demographic "fairness".

Well, we already have a terror watch list. They can't fly on an airplane. If you can't fly on airplane, then you shouldn't be able to purchase a firearm. That's just my personal belief. I don't call that gungrabbing nor profiling.

 

[x_files]

He not only managed to get a gun license. He got an armed security guard license, and he got a job with a security company that's a contractor for the US government.

I'd love to know how that was allowed while being on an FBI watch list? Same thing for the Boston Bomber's if I recall.
Who will answer to this? FBI?

 

[sonjay]

Maybe so, but I think I see their point, we have not been doing a very good job at stopping those other kinds of terrorists now have we? If we can't stop one type of extremist nutjob, then it's going to be equally hard to stop another type of extremist religious nutjob.

That's pretty fatalistic. I prefer not to be so fatalistic. I think we can stop allowing Islamic terrorists and Islamic terrorism into the US, and I think we must do so.