GUILTY FL - Phoebe Jonchuck, 5, dropped from 60' bridge, St Petersburg, 8 Jan 2015

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SeesSeas said:
Closing arguments on Monday
The Trial of John Jonchuck, Day 19: Testimony ends, closing arguments set for Monday
April 12, 2019
LANE AND JOSH (3:29 p.m.)
Closing arguments will start 11 a.m. Monday morning. The judge is designating four hours for closings. The prosecution goes first, then the defense, then the state goes again. Each side gets two hours, but the state has to split up its time.
Click to expand...
SeeSeas, again thank you very much for attending the trial and updating for us.

Since you've been there live, listening to much of the testimony, I'm curious as to what your take is on the proceedings. After listening to the psychiatrists/psychologists do you think Jonchuck was insane when he dropped Phoebe off the bridge? Is he insane now?

What's your opinion about the prosecution and defense regarding how well they presented their sides to the jury?

Thanks again!
 
MsMarple said:
SeeSeas, again thank you very much for attending the trial and updating for us.

Since you've been there live, listening to much of the testimony, I'm curious as to what your take is on the proceedings. After listening to the psychiatrists/psychologists do you think Jonchuck was insane when he dropped Phoebe off the bridge? Is he insane now?

What's your opinion about the prosecution and defense regarding how well they presented their sides to the jury?

Thanks again!
Click to expand...
Attending this trial has been interesting and entertaining. But I am tired. It has been a huge drain on my psyche. Glad to have the weekend to recuperate before attending closing arguments on Monday.

I think John was insane when he dropped Phoebe off the bridge.

As far as his current mental health, I agree with the medical experts who say that he has long-term severe mental illness, with symptoms managed by multiple medications.

Prosecution presented an excellent case that Phoebe was murdered by John. Defense does not dispute that John murdered his daughter.

Defense presented an excellent case with 3 medical experts (Machlus, Otto, Maher) stating their opinion that John was insane at the time of offense.

Prosecution rebuttal case was a mixed bag. Dr Bursten provided good testimony with his opinion being severe mental illness, but not insane at time of offense. Dr Lazarou was an outlier o_O, and I think her testimony was detrimental to the prosecution’s case.

Prior to Lazarou’s lengthy and controversial testimony, Dr Bursten’s testimony had already shifted my ‘on the fence’ opinion about whether Jonchuck was insane when he murdered Phoebe.

Dr Bursten (prosecution expert) agreed with Dr Maher (defense expert) that all of the experts are more the same than different: “As Dr Maher said, if we all got into a room and talked about it, we’d be much more the same than different; no disagreement there.”

So, 4 of the 5 medical experts (3 for the defense, 2 for the prosecution) agree on most aspects of Jonchuck’s severe mental illness.

Because of this, I think Jonchuck should be given the ‘benefit of any doubt’ regarding insanity at the time of offense.
 
Thank you again SeesSeas for all your input!

So - if the jury finds him insane - he stays in a hospital, be given meds & once he is stable - he gets tried again? Or what happens after say - 5 years ? Will he "always" be insane?? Even with meds?
 
Niner said:
Thank you again SeesSeas for all your input!

So - if the jury finds him insane - he stays in a hospital, be given meds & once he is stable - he gets tried again? Or what happens after say - 5 years ? Will he "always" be insane?? Even with meds?
Click to expand...
I don’t recall any testimony regarding Once Insane = Always Insane. I don’t understand “insane” or “insanity” as much as I’d like to. During this trial, there hasn’t been an elaboration of “temporary insanity”. The expert testimony has revolved around “severe mental illness” and “insane at time of offense”, but it’s not been referred to as ‘temporary’.

It is certainly a dilemma to attempt to comprehend the dynamics of the timing of insanity.

Four of the five doctor experts who testified agree that Jonchuck has severe mental illness. And if Lazarou decided Jonchuck wasn’t mentally ill before she even met him (I think Dr Lazarou was untruthful. I believe Heather Davis), my calculation is this - four out of four experts agree that he has severe mental illness. They agree that there is no cure for his mental illness, but that his symptoms can be controlled by medications. Three of those four experts agree that he was insane at the time of offense.

If he is found NGRI and sent to a hospital, he won’t be retried unless the state appeals the verdict which I think is very unlikely.

What happens after xx number of years at a hospital? Your guess is as good as mine. But I suspect he would spend decades in a therapeutic institution.

John Hinckley was recently released after 35 years in a mental institution. The release was a gradual process and Hinckley is still under strict monitoring and sanctions.

Hinckley has supportive family to assist with his transition into society. Jonchuck doesn’t have family support.

The Trial of John Jonchuck Day 12: With competency confirmed, the case goes on
“Symptoms wax and wane,” Otto says. If you stop taking your medicine, or you run out of medicine, or start drinking alcohol, or are under stress, or haven’t slept, that might make things worse.
“We can’t look for all people with severe and persistent mental illness to be maniacs, that they’re bouncing off the walls or are walking like a zombie and can’t do anything,” the psychologist says.

After Hinckley, States Tightened Use Of The Insanity Plea
John Hinckley Jr. was released from a mental institution 35 years after he was judged not guilty by reason of insanity for attempting to assassinate President Ronald Reagan.

More interesting articles:
Psychiatric News
https://listverse.com/2012/04/11/top-10-most-notorious-insanity-defense-cases/
 
Thanks a bunch for that explanation! Makes sense! Yea, I guess he is insane.... with those many experts - as you say - 4 out 4!
 
The Long Fall of Phoebe Jonchuck
On the night Phoebe’s dad scooped her from her bed, the moon was high outside her window. The house was quiet. He carried her out the door, into the dark.
AR-190329805.jpg&MaxW=576&ImageVersion=Rotator

https://www.tampabay.com/storyimage...R-190329805.jpg&MaxW=992&ImageVersion=Rotator
About the story
Tampa Bay Times writer Lane DeGregory and photographer Cherie Diez reported this story over a period of six months, interviewing 50 people, including relatives and friends of the Jonchuck family, as well as officials, the officer on the bridge, rescuers and others who came in contact with John and Phoebe. Additional information came from hundreds of pages of police reports, court records and Department of Children and Families documents.

The reporters met Phoebe’s grandmother and great-uncles at Cleveland Elementary School in June. The scenes at the cemetery and in MawMaw’s apartment were witnessed by the journalists.

The opening scene and others were reconstructed from the extensive interviews and official records.

Phoebe’s grandfather and step-grandmother declined to comment for this story. The two priests and sheriff’s deputies who interviewed John at the church also declined repeated requests for interviews. Information about them came from police reports.

Through his mother, John agreed to talk with reporters but failed to call or return messages.
 
Monday, April 15th:
*Trial continues (Day 15)-Closing Arguments (@ 11am ET) – FL – Phoebe Jonchuck (5) (Jan. 18, 2015, St. Petersburg-thrown off 62’ bridge into Tampa Bay by her father) – *John Nicolas Jonchuck, Jr. (25/now 29) arrested & charged (1/18/15) with 1st degree murder, aggravated assault with a vehicle on LE officers & aggravated fleeing & eluding police. Plead not guilty by reason of insanity. Held without bond.
Jury trial started 3/25/19. Jurors: 4 women & 8 men (alternates: 2 women/1 juror was dismissed on 4/4;1 juror was dismissed on 4/8). Jurors may ask witnesses questions. (Trial could take at least one week. General hours are going to be 9am until 7pm).
Jury Selection (Days 1-5; 3/18/19-3/22/19) & Trial (Days 1-12; 3/25/19-4/10/19) reference post #354 here:
FL - Phoebe Jonchuck, 5, dropped from 60' bridge, St Petersburg, 8 Jan 2015
4/11/19 Day 13: Defense cross-examination of Dr Emily Lazarou. Morning testimony includes video of October 2017 evaluation of Jonchuck by Lazarou. Trial continues on 4/12.
4/12/19 Day 14: Started with arguments this morning. The judge & lawyers are talking about the nasty comments they’ve read referencing them on online live-streams of the trial. The defense is waiving Jonchuck’s appearance this morning. They say they are not going to call Ryan Wagoner, the psychiatrist they had consulted with to question the methods of one of the prosecution’s experts, Emily Lazarou. In surrebuttal, the public defenders will call Heather Davis, a counselor at the treatment center outside Gainesville where Jonchuck has been receiving treatment. Also calling psychiatrist Michael Maher, who already testified once as an expert. Prosecutor Doug Ellis asks Judge Chris Helinger to not allow surrebuttal. She says that’s not going to happen, but he can object to any parts of testimony he thinks should not be admitted, while the witnesses are on the stand. The defense asks for the jurors to come back at 1:30 p.m. State rests their case.
Defense surrebuttal witnesses: Heather Davis. Dr. Michael Maher. Defense rests their case. Closing arguments will start 11 a.m. Monday morning (4/15). The judge is designating four hours for closings. The prosecution goes first, then the defense, then the state goes again. Each side gets two hours, but the state has to split up its time.
 
Verdict Watch
The Trial of John Jonchuck, Day 20: Watch closing arguments
April 15, 2019
LANE, ZACK AND JOSH (4:05 p.m.)
That’s it: After more than three weeks of testimony and arguments, the presentation is over. Judge Helinger will read the jury instructions and then the case will be in their hands.

LANE, JOSH AND ZACK (4:35 p.m.)
“You must follow the law as it is set out in these instructions,” says the judge. “All of us are depending on you to make a wise and legal decision in this matter. This case cannot be decided for or against anyone because you feel sorry for them — or because you’re angry at them,” Helinger says.

Only one verdict may be returned, the judge says. “The verdict must be unanimous and in writing.”

She shows them the jury’s verdict form, with boxes to check, and tells them they have to choose a foreperson.

If jurors need to communicate with the judge, they can send a note through a courtroom deputy.

The defense has an issue with the instructions. Another bench conference.

Then: One more thing, the judge has jurors make a slight adjustment to the instructions, to account for the potential not guilty by reason of insanity finding. And another adjustment about “weighing the evidence,” making it read “the state or the defense” instead of just “the state.”

“Your food should be delivered soon. You can decide to deliberate as long as you want. You’re in charge now,” Helinger says. Jurors can deliberate as long as they want and come back tomorrow if they can’t decide. Helinger releases the final alternate juror.

That’s it. The case is now in the jury’s hands. A deputy leads them away to the jury room.

“This is the most interesting trial I’ve ever had,” the judge tells the alternate, who stays behind. "Probably ever will.”
 
Cathy Russon‏ @cathyrusson 7h7 hours ago
#JonchuckTrial - WATCH LIVE: Prosecution closing arguments. https://lawandcrime.com

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Cathy Russon‏ @cathyrusson 5h5 hours ago
#JonchuckTrial - WATCH LIVE: Jonchuck's defense attorney giving closing arguments. https://lawandcrime.com

D4NQLE-UUAAyvT4.png


Cathy Russon‏ @cathyrusson 4h4 hours ago
#JonchuckTrial - Photos from today's closing arguments.
D4NlIijUYAMjMg8.jpg

D4NlIiqUcAAWCRX.jpg


Cathy Russon‏ @cathyrusson 2h2 hours ago
#JonchuckTrial - Closing arguments began at 11:05am. We are now in prosecution rebuttal closing.

Cathy Russon‏ @cathyrusson 55m55 minutes ago
VERDICT WATCH: Jurors are now deliberating in the #JonchuckTrial

D4ON-WvUwAAZQ9D.png
 
I wish I had followed this trial from the start. I only found it while checking out Cathy Russon's tweets so have added a couple of tweets with pictures. Thank you SeesSeas for all the information and reporting on what's been happening in the courtroom. You too, Niner, thank you for posting updates and of course, that goes for others who've contributed to the thread. Has anyone notified a mod to let them know we are on verdict watch so it can be added in the title of the thread?
 
The Trial of John Jonchuck, Day 20: Watch closing arguments
ZACK (6:55 p.m.)
Jury will be back tomorrow at 9 a.m. A deputy just led them out of the courthouse.

ZACK (6:45 p.m.)
Jury is going to come in, but Helinger says they’re done for the day. No verdict. Jonchuck is also being led back in before we officially end.

ZACK AND JOSH (6:40 p.m.)
We’ve been called back to the courtroom. We don’t yet know why. It’s possible the jury has a question, or that they’ve decided to break for tonight. It does not necessarily mean we already have a verdict.
 
Now it’s up to the jury in the John Jonchuck case
April 15, 2019
LARGO — Ever since Phoebe Jonchuck died four years ago, dropped by her father 62 feet from a bridge, screaming as she plummeted into the cold water of Tampa Bay, the region has waited for closure.

That moment could come soon.

After more than three weeks of testimony in the murder trial of John Jonchuck, and four hours of closing arguments Monday, the jury began to deliberate as the courthouse closed up for the evening.

The seven men and five women will have to decide whether Jonchuck, 29, was insane when he killed his 5-year-old daughter. Or whether he committed the act out of malice, to get revenge on Phoebe’s mother, and punish his own mother.

In Florida, unlike some other states, there is no option of rendering a verdict that says someone is guilty but mentally ill. So even though a police officer saw Jonchuck carry Phoebe from his car, to the edge of the Dick Misener Bridge, and drop her over the railing — and there is no doubt Jonchuck was responsible for his daughter’s death — if jurors agree that he was insane at the moment he dropped her, they have to find him not guilty by reason of insanity.

That verdict would mean the judge could send Jonchuck to a mental health treatment center, order him to go to an outpatient treatment program, or even let him go, in theory. If he is sentenced to the mental hospital, as the judge has said would happen, he could stay there for the rest of his life. If doctors later deemed him fit, he could be released.

But if the jurors find Jonchuck guilty of premeditated murder, or first-degree felony murder, he will be sentenced to life in prison, barring an appeal.

In making their final pitches to the jury, the prosecutors and public defenders stuck to the same timeline of events but offered the sharpest versions yet of their differing interpretations of the case.

“It is never going to make sense. We’ve tried our hardest, we’ve listened to it all. It is insanity,” said public defender Jessica Manuele. “John never had any ill will, or criminal intent, against his daughter. He loved his daughter. More than anything.”

But the state had the last word.

“It wasn’t insanity,” said prosecutor Doug Ellis. “It was all the issues in his life building up: Lack of money, lack of friends and family support, lack of shelter.”

The jury left the courtroom to begin deliberating at 4:47 p.m. They still hadn’t reached a verdict by 6:45 p.m. and went home for the night.
[...]
 
Tuesday, April 16th:
*Trial continues (Day 16)-VERDICT WATCH! (@ 9am ET) – FL – Phoebe Jonchuck (5) (Jan. 18, 2015, St. Petersburg-thrown off 62’ bridge into Tampa Bay by her father) – *John Nicolas Jonchuck, Jr. (25/now 29) arrested & charged (1/18/15) with 1st degree murder, aggravated assault with a vehicle on LE officers & aggravated fleeing & eluding police. Plead not guilty by reason of insanity. Held without bond.
Jury trial started 3/25/19. Jurors: 5 women & 7 men (alternates: 1 women/1 juror was dismissed on 4/4;1 juror was dismissed on 4/8; juror replaced with alternate on 4/15). Jurors may ask witnesses questions. (Trial could take at least one week. General hours are going to be 9am until 7pm).
Jury Selection (Days 1-5; 3/18/19-3/22/19) & Trial (Days 1-14; 3/25/19-4/12/19) reference post #368 here:
VERDICT WATCH - FL - Phoebe Jonchuck, 5, dropped from 60' bridge, St Petersburg, 8 Jan 2015
4/15/19 Day 15: Closing arguments from both sides. Judge gives jurors instruction. Another juror has been replaced with an alternate. Final jury is now 5 women & 7 men. Judge releases last alternate. Jury deliberated from 4:47pm until 6:45pm (local time). Will be back tomorrow, 4/16.
 
The jury is deliberating in the John Jonchuck trial. Here’s what they don’t know.
April 16, 2019
Jurors didn’t hear perhaps the most monumental words of John Jonchuck’s four-week murder trial.

They came from Kyrsten Malcolm, now 23, the former paralegal for family lawyer Genevieve Torres. Jonchuck went to Torres’ office the day before he killed his daughter. Later that afternoon, Malcolm told an empty jury box, Jonchuck made a series of erratic phone calls to the office. In one of them, Malcolm recalled, he made what prosecutors believe was an ominous threat: “If I can’t have her, then no one else will.”

The testimony was part of a proffer, when lawyers ask a witness questions with the jury out of the room so the judge can decide if the testimony is proper for trial. But because prosecutors didn’t alert the defense about that statement, the judge prevented the jury from hearing it. “I think the statement is a statement that is extremely important that the state put before the jury,” Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge Chris Helinger said. “It’s a killer statement.” But, she said, “I don’t think I can let it in. It’s not because I don’t want to let it in.”

It’s just one piece of evidence jurors didn’t hear before they began to deliberate Monday with an incomplete picture, the product of a trial process where lawyers curate the narratives, and issues of fairness supercede any desire to give jurors everything.

“In every trial, there are certain pieces of evidence the jury will not hear about,” said Pinellas criminal defense lawyer Jay Hebert. “That is by design and in compliance with the rules of evidence. The court has to take each one of those issues and vet them prior to them being presented to the jury.”

Here are four other things jurors don’t know or didn’t hear:
Testimony from Phoebe’s mom, Jonchuck’s uncles, friends, roommates and former boss
Testimony of Dr. Gary Arthur
The word “psychopath”
Jonchuck’s reported hallucinations during trial
[...]
 
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