Florida's Stand Your Ground Law

[RANCH]

I don't think MOM has decided whether or not he will use SYG, or just go straight to trial and claim self defense. That was my understanding. Many experts agree that looking at the evidence now, SYG would not apply. I think MOM would know what those chances are and why risk GZ's testimony if it gets turned down. So that might not even be an issue. jmo

I think that O'Mara should ask for a SYG immunity hearing. The prosecution supposedly already has conflicting statements from GZ. What could the prosecution possibly gain if GZ takes the stand at an immunity hearing? The defense will get to see the prosecutions strategy if the hearing takes place. They will see how the prosecution examines GZ. That will help them immensely if it goes to trial. Much for the defense to gain with little to lose. JMO.

 

[liedetector]

... This is her interpretation of 776.041, which we discussed above. The underline is unfounded as it's not stated that the person has to COME AT YOU with such force...

...The full quote was too ridiculous to care about, so I snipped the important part - a question that has been answered MANY times on this forum.

Respectfully snipped.

I understand that you wholeheartedly disagree with the excerpted interpretations of possible SYG challenges in this case as expressed by the former judge / both legal analysts, in addition to the viewpoints expressed by the HP opinion piece's author, which I provided with links to the respective current articles in their entirety.

But you should know that immediately after posting -without having seen your response, I actually edited out the underline you deemed "unfounded," got rid of the italics and didn't include that sentence in the remarks BBM.

And though it's certainly your right to feel that the quote from the author of the opinion piece is "too ridiculous to care about" and maintain that his question has purportedly been "answered MANY times," I must say that I've not only observed on WS, the same questions repeatedly addressed and repeatedly answered differently by those with opposing views, but also, the same points and arguments made - without complain. Just as I'm unsure whether this was directed towards the author for his statements, or towards me for posting a portion of them, I'm unsure too, if, or how, I might have elicited what appears (at least to me) to be a bit of "snarkiness" in your reply - especially since the extent of my own commentary regarding the links/excerpts was that I found them "interesting,"

 

[Darkman00]

Earlier on, last night already, actually ... on CNN's Erin Out Front ... There was a lawyer who thinks Zimmerman will be set Free ... either because the case gets thrown out ... or because the judge might dismiss it etc...

I think he was attributing it to Stand Your Ground....

Anyone caught that show last night? ... Out Front was repeated several times on CNN.

----

It's HERE, actually: http://outfront.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/22/criminal-expert-zimmerman-will-go-free/

They have a VIDEO there as well......

Criminal expert: Zimmerman will go free

CNN's Erin Burnett talks to a criminal expert who says George Zimmerman will not go to trial. David Dow, defense attorney and law professor says it is unlikely that the case will ever make it to trial and even if it does, Zimmerman will never be convicted of murdering 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

 

[Darkman00]

I don't envy Zimmerman in any case ... even if he is set Free basically.

Maybe, if he is set Free, it will be better for him to move to South America, for example, where his mother was born.

Because, how da heck is he going to safely walk the streets in US of A, if he is set Free

 

[cmsg2002]

Quote:
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

If this is the portion of SYG that forms the basis of your opinion that GZ is innocent...then this same portion would have to then be equally applied to TM as well. I don't think any of us can say with any amount of factual certainty, that TM may have also reasonably believed force was necessary to defend himself against GZ's imminent use of unlawful force.

Would it change your opinion any if (and this is just a what if scenario) GZ had brandished his weapon to TM, and TM was acting to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself? It's certainly not out of the realm of plausibility, IMO.

 

[AJ Noiter]

Quote:
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

If this is the portion of SYG that forms the basis of your opinion that GZ is innocent...then this same portion would have to then be equally applied to TM as well. I don't think any of us can say with any amount of factual certainty, that TM may have also reasonably believed force was necessary to defend himself against GZ's imminent use of unlawful force.

Would it change your opinion any if (and this is just a what if scenario) GZ had brandished his weapon to TM, and TM was acting to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself? It's certainly not out of the realm of plausibility, IMO.

I think it would be very hard to find a handful of reasonable people that will say "being followed is reason to have a fear of great bodily harm." That's what the "reasonably belief" means - a REASONABLE PERSON would believe that their life were in danger, or have fear of great bodily harm. I'd like to see a single scenario where being followed alone is any indication of great bodily harm or death, but haven't yet.

It pretty much is out of the realm of plausibility given that he never states anything to the girlfriend that there's a weapon. Supposedly she heard everything right up to the fight, right? Why WOULDN'T he say something? Can't say he didn't see it, because you can't fear it if you can't see it - in your scenario.

 

[Karmady]

Just sayin'...SYG is strictly an immunity statute. It will be applied to evaluate George's conduct only, as he is the only one charged with a crime. While the State may be able to introduce certain evidence about what Trayvon did or said, his conduct will not be evaluated except as it applies to George's actions or reactions to it. In other words, saying that Trayvon could have been "standing his ground," too, may be a valid opinion here, but such a determination is irrelevant to the court case except maybe as a soundbite in the opening and closing statements, imo.

Maybe a subtle distinction, but I think it's worth keeping in mind in the specific SYG discussion thread. jmo

 

[Aedrys]

I think it would be very hard to find a handful of reasonable people that will say "being followed is reason to have a fear of great bodily harm." That's what the "reasonably belief" means - a REASONABLE PERSON would believe that their life were in danger, or have fear of great bodily harm. I'd like to see a single scenario where being followed alone is any indication of great bodily harm or death, but haven't yet.

It pretty much is out of the realm of plausibility given that he never states anything to the girlfriend that there's a weapon. Supposedly she heard everything right up to the fight, right? Why WOULDN'T he say something? Can't say he didn't see it, because you can't fear it if you can't see it.

If someone follows me in their car and it seems like they are trying to follow me to my house, I get scared. I don't go straight home because I don't want them to know where I live. The same would be if I were walking and thought someone was following me. We live in a dangerous society. People have to lock their doors at night. Kids and adults get kidnapped and murdered all of the time. It is ludicrous to suggest that no one would be afraid if they thought someone was following them. Not in this modern day society. There is a lot to fear and people should fear so that they can protect themselves. There is so much violence and murder, people should fear for their lives if they feel someone is following them. Better safe than sorry. And if GZ was following me, heck yes I'd be terrified of him. TM had every right to be fearful of his life that night. All IMO.

 

[cityslick]

If someone follows me in their car and it seems like they are trying to follow me to my house, I get scared. I don't go straight home because I don't want them to know where I live. The same would be if I were walking and thought someone was following me. We live in a dangerous society. People have to lock their doors at night. Kids and adults get kidnapped and murdered all of the time. It is ludicrous to suggest that no one would be afraid if they thought someone was following them. Not in this modern day society. There is a lot to fear and people should fear so that they can protect themselves. There is so much violence and murder, people should fear for their lives if they feel someone is following them. Better safe than sorry. And if GZ was following me, heck yes I'd be terrified of him. TM had every right to be fearful of his life that night. All IMO.

The SYG law does not allow you to forcibly attack the person following you simply because you are being followed. In fact, I don't think any law allows you to confront and assault a person simply because you suspect someone is following you.

 

[Aedrys]

Earlier on, last night already, actually ... on CNN's Erin Out Front ... There was a lawyer who thinks Zimmerman will be set Free ... either because the case gets thrown out ... or because the judge might dismiss it etc...

I think he was attributing it to Stand Your Ground....

Anyone caught that show last night? ... Out Front was repeated several times on CNN.

----

It's HERE, actually: http://outfront.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/22/criminal-expert-zimmerman-will-go-free/

They have a VIDEO there as well......

I believe O'Mara has to file first to get a SYG hearing, and he has not done so yet. Those TH's are jumping the gun. Let's see if O'Mara files for that hearing in the first place. He may not and let this go trial. I wouldn't put every hope in that SYG hearing since O'Mara doesn't seem keen on filing to get one.

 

[AJ Noiter]

I believe O'Mara has to file first to get a SYG hearing, and he has not done so yet. Those TH's are jumping the gun. Let's see if O'Mara files for that hearing in the first place. He may not and let this go trial. I wouldn't put every hope in that SYG hearing since O'Mara doesn't seem keen on filing to get one.

I wouldn't expect him to until he has all of the evidence, either.

 

[Aedrys]

The SYG law does not allow you to forcibly attack the person following you simply because you are being followed. In fact, I don't think any law allows you to confront and assault a person simply because you suspect someone is following you.

I know that, but I was responding to the poster who said it would never be reasonable that anyone would be scared of someone following them. I believe just the opposite. I didn't mention the SYG law in my post. I believe TM did believe and was afraid of great bodily harm that night, yet this poster suggested no one should be afraid of someone even following them, much less someone following them and doing great bodily harm to them. That is just not so in society today. I never said that fit the law, I just was refuting that people should be a-okay with other people following them. That is just not the case in society today. I never said people should feel free to attack someone else who is following them. That is where the law comes in.

The consensus with some people is that Trayvon should not have had any fear at all that night, and I'm saying, yes, he did. Someone was following him, and he had every right to fear that person. I highly doubt he just up and attacked GZ out of the blue. I'm betting GZ became aggressive in some way that made TM fear for his life and that made TM defend himself. If they SYG law applies to anyone, it's TM, not GZ. How could GZ have any fear when he was carrying a gun? That makes no sense to me. All IMO.

 

[Karmady]

I believe O'Mara has to file first to get a SYG hearing, and he has not done so yet. Those TH's are jumping the gun. Let's see if O'Mara files for that hearing in the first place. He may not and let this go trial. I wouldn't put every hope in that SYG hearing since O'Mara doesn't seem keen on filing to get one.

He would never file it now. He can do it at any time afaik. Personally, I think there's little question that he will. All jmo

 

[Allusonz]

Earlier on, last night already, actually ... on CNN's Erin Out Front ... There was a lawyer who thinks Zimmerman will be set Free ... either because the case gets thrown out ... or because the judge might dismiss it etc...

I think he was attributing it to Stand Your Ground....

Anyone caught that show last night? ... Out Front was repeated several times on CNN.

----

It's HERE, actually: http://outfront.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/22/criminal-expert-zimmerman-will-go-free/

They have a VIDEO there as well......

Yes I did see that show.

IMO he took it further by stating that considering a weak PCA and taking into account what has to date been revealed that this was a possibility.

 

[AJ Noiter]

I know that, but I was responding to the poster who said it would never be reasonable that anyone would be scared of someone following them. I believe just the opposite. I didn't mention the SYG law in my post. I believe TM did believe and was afraid of great bodily harm that night, yet this poster suggested no one should be afraid of someone even following them, much less someone following them and doing great bodily harm to them. That is just not so in society today. I never said that fit the law, I just was refuting that people should be a-okay with other people following them. That is just not the case in society today. I never said people should feel free to attack someone else who is following them. That is where the law comes in. The consensus with some people is that Trayvon should not have had any fear at all that night, and I'm saying, yes, he did. Someone was following him, and he had every right to fear that person. I highly doubt he just up and attacked GZ out of the blue. I'm betting GZ became aggressive in some way that made TM fear for his life. All IMO.

I never stated that he wouldn't be scared. In my, true, story I knew that the young lady would've been scared and said as much to her. It wouldn't be reasonable to fear for your life or fear great bodily harm simply because someone is following you. Great bodily harm isn't defined in Florida statutes that I've been able to find, so I believe they would just judge the plain words.

 

[Aedrys]

I never stated that he wouldn't be scared. In my, true, story I knew that the young lady would've been scared and said as much to her. It wouldn't be reasonable to fear for your life or fear great bodily harm simply because someone is following you. Great bodily harm isn't defined in Florida statutes that I've been able to find, so I believe they would just judge the plain words.

If a bigger guy is following me, yes I fear great bodily harm since he is bigger than me. If he takes out a gun or does anything threatening, heck yes I am fearing great bodily harm. GZ was not walking around like someone out for a walk. He was on a mission, and I'm betting his body language was threatening to TM. I'm telling you, anyone follows me and I'd be afraid of great bodily harm because I can't fight worth anything. It doesn't mean I would attack them, though. I'd be most likely to run and try to get away. It is very reasonable that someone would fear great bodily harm from someone following them. It is scary when someone is following you and you don't know why. I've actually had that happen to me before.

 

[Darkman00]

I believe O'Mara has to file first to get a SYG hearing, and he has not done so yet. Those TH's are jumping the gun. Let's see if O'Mara files for that hearing in the first place. He may not and let this go trial. I wouldn't put every hope in that SYG hearing since O'Mara doesn't seem keen on filing to get one.

He still might though....... (re: O'Mara)

Unless Judge doesn't even need O'Mara filing .. can recognize SYG situation and act accordingly on his own....

Don't know though...

 

[AJ Noiter]

If a bigger guy is following me, yes I fear great bodily harm since he is bigger than me. If he takes out a gun or does anything threatening, heck yes I am fearing great bodily harm. GZ was not walking around like someone out for a walk. He was on a mission, and I'm betting his body language was threatening to TM. I'm telling you, anyone follows me and I'd be afraid of great bodily harm because I can't fight worth anything. It doesn't mean I would attack them, though. I'd be most likely to run and try to get away. It is very reasonable that someone would fear great bodily harm from someone following them. It is scary when someone is following you and you don't know why. I've actually had that happen to me before.

I never said people should feel free to attack someone else who is following them.

So in your estimation the availability to attack someone who is following you is based on size? Personally I would be more afraid the smaller guys as they're quick, they can attack you - and if they're trained you'd be in a world of hurt - and get away fast after the attack. The thought of Mr. Zimmerman having his weapon drawn prior to the shooting is unfounded, there's not a shred of evidence to suggest this that I've seen.

 

[magnolia]

I believe O'Mara has to file first to get a SYG hearing, and he has not done so yet. Those TH's are jumping the gun. Let's see if O'Mara files for that hearing in the first place. He may not and let this go trial. I wouldn't put every hope in that SYG hearing since O'Mara doesn't seem keen on filing to get one.

I really don't think that is the case. O'Mara has not had the State's evidence long. If he feels a SYG hearing is in his client's best interest, I am sure he will proceed accordingly.

 

[AJ Noiter]

I really don't think that is the case. O'Mara has not had the State's evidence long. If he feels a SYG hearing is in his client's best interest, I am sure he will proceed accordingly.

Not to mention that by his own estimations he has less than half of it. Can't file for immunity or ask for the case to be dismissed while waiting for evidence, can you?