Florida's Stand Your Ground Law

[AJ Noiter]

Thanks for the article. I hope you understand that ruling makes me want to puke.

I won't bother with the semantics of burgular vs unarmed, non law breaking teenager. That horse is beat ad naseum every day around here.

Damn, he really did chase this dude down and cold turkey kill him, didn't he?

ETA, Sorry Beach. I'm through talking about it anyway, but if you want to zap my posts feel free to do so.

I agree, the two cases are different, was just using it to show that SYG/Self Defense doesn't automatically dissolve because of a change of course

 

[cityslick]

Thanks for the article. I hope you understand that ruling makes me want to puke.

I won't bother with the semantics of burgular vs unarmed, non law breaking teenager. That horse is beat ad naseum every day around here.

Damn, he really did chase this dude down and cold turkey kill him, didn't he?

ETA, Sorry Beach. I'm through talking about it anyway, but if you want to zap my posts feel free to do so.

The thing is the judge (according to Lynn's post) did not rule in favor of him killing him because the thief committed a crime, he ruled in favor because he swung a bag of radios at him.

Now go to this case. What stops a judge from ruling for SYG if somehow it's proven that TM 'swung' at GZ and had him on the ground? Despite the circumstances that came before it?

I agree, the SYG law needs to be changed.

 

[Reader]

I don't know for sure that it happened, but I have no reason to doubt that it did and there's absolutely nothing improper about it. Under SYG, the State will be liable for damages if George is immune, so it makes perfect sense that they would ask the prosecutor's advice before deciding whether to arrest him or not. The prosecutor ALWAYS makes the decision whether to charge someone in any criminal case, except in most cases there isn't any urgency for the prosecutor to decide b/c the State won't be liable if there is an arrest that the prosecutor later decides not to charge or prosecute. There is absolutely nothing nefarious about what happened in this case and the urgency is totally logical under the circumstances.

jmo.

Would really like to agree with you since I realize that it is normal for LE and prosecutors to work together to decide on charges. At least that's how they do it on TV.

However, that's not what the SYG law/1 says and also not what former SA Wolfinger said about how cases are handled on his own website/2:

1/ A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

[previously linked]

2/ When a crime is committed, your local law enforcement agency will investigate. That agency can either make an arrest of the suspect or forward their investigation to the State Attorney’s Office for review and a filing decision. When the case information is received by the State Attorney’s Office, it is reviewed by an Assistant State Attorney for determination as to whether formal criminal charges may be filed. If charges are filed and the suspect was not already arrested by law enforcement, then an arrest warrant called a capias is issued.

http://sa18.state.fl.us/prosecute/division.htm

In his own summary of the SYG bill Wolfinger states:

The bill further prohibits the arrest of a “defender” for using force unless law enforcement first determines that there is probable cause that the force used was unlawful.

http://sa18.state.fl.us/rapsheet/rap_0705_3.pdf

Wolfinger covered 2 counties and had 5 offices to supervise. It would be very abnormal for the SA himself to travel over 50 miles at night to meet with an LE dept. to decide if someone should be arrested or not....not charged....just ARRESTED. Very, very unusual....wonder why Bill Lee was willing to give up his authority to the SA that way??


IMO

 

[marlame]

marlame, thank you for the link in your signature. I don't think that statute would apply to the evening in question since, IMO, "repeatedly" would mean multiple (or at least two) separate instances of the behavior, rather than behavior where there is not a break in time between offenses.

I'm not saying it might not fall under some other statute, but I don't think this one fits the circumstances. If it did, the state would likely have charged Zimmerman with violating it if they had evidence he'd broken that law. JMO

My understanding is they DID charge GZ with stalking... :waitasec:
Here's the Florida statute under which George Zimmerman has been charged with second degree murder.
It's 782.04 2n: unpremeditated murder as a result of aggravated stalking.

782.04 Murder.—
(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:

1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;

2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),

b. Arson,

c. Sexual battery,

d. Robbery,

e. Burglary,

f. Kidnapping,

g. Escape,

h. Aggravated child abuse,

i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,

j. Aircraft piracy,

k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,

l. Carjacking,

m. Home-invasion robbery,

n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,

p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,

q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism;

 

[Reader]

marlame, thank you for the link in your signature. I don't think that statute would apply to the evening in question since, IMO, "repeatedly" would mean multiple (or at least two) separate instances of the behavior, rather than behavior where there is not a break in time between offenses.

I'm not saying it might not fall under some other statute, but I don't think this one fits the circumstances. If it did, the state would likely have charged Zimmerman with violating it if they had evidence he'd broken that law. JMO

My understanding is they DID charge GZ with stalking... :waitasec:
Here's the Florida statute under which George Zimmerman has been charged with second degree murder.
It's 782.04 2n: unpremeditated murder as a result of aggravated stalking.

782.04 Murder.—
(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:

1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;

2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),

b. Arson,

c. Sexual battery,

d. Robbery,

e. Burglary,

f. Kidnapping,

g. Escape,

h. Aggravated child abuse,

i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,

j. Aircraft piracy,

k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,

l. Carjacking,

m. Home-invasion robbery,

n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,

p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,

q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism;

Thank you, marlame!

I'm thinking that the separate instances of following Trayvon might be when he first followed him in the car, then ignored the advice of LE and followed again on foot the first time, lost Trayvon, then found him again and followed again, ending with the confrontation.

This would meet the SYG provision of:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony;

This is probably what AC was talking about when she was on NG....

 

[Karmady]

Would really like to agree with you since I realize that it is normal for LE and prosecutors to work together to decide on charges. At least that's how they do it on TV.

However, that's not what the SYG law/1 says and also not what former SA Wolfinger said about how cases are handled on his own website/2:



[previously linked]



http://sa18.state.fl.us/prosecute/division.htm

In his own summary of the SYG bill Wolfinger states:



http://sa18.state.fl.us/rapsheet/rap_0705_3.pdf

Wolfinger covered 2 counties and had 5 offices to supervise. It would be very abnormal for the SA himself to travel over 50 miles at night to meet with an LE dept. to decide if someone should be arrested or not....not charged....just ARRESTED. Very, very unusual....wonder why Bill Lee was willing to give up his authority to the SA that way??


IMO

Even without seeing all of those statements in context (the link I followed takes me to the main page, and some of those quotes seem like references to standard procedure in typical cases of the kind I also mentioned in my post), the quotes still specifically say that the prosecutor can make the determination. And in a questionable case of SYG where immunity and the State's liability is at stake (i.e., where it was not at all clear to SPD that there was NO immunity), I stand by everything I said.

And, just for the record, I have no reason to believe that Wolfinger came to the station that night. Maybe he did, but it seems more likely that SPD just e-mailed him the documents and spoke to him over the phone. Iirc, Wolfinger specifically denied some middle of the night meeting.

Also, my comments, including about who decides on the charges, when and under what circumstances, is not based on tv shows. I don't even watch t.v.

 

[RANCH]

The problem here is you guys are quoting Florida statute 782.04(1). GZ was charged with statute 782.04(2) which reads as follows.

(2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

Murder under 782.04(1) is premeditated. Murder under 782.04(2) is without any premeditated design.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/88952000/George-Zimmerman-Information-Document

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ing=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html

 

[RANCH]

ETA: I should say that murder 1 would apply here if the state had charged GZ with aggravated stalking. They didn't.

 

[gxm]

Thank you, marlame!

I'm thinking that the separate instances of following Trayvon might be when he first followed him in the car, then ignored the advice of LE and followed again on foot the first time, lost Trayvon, then found him again and followed again, ending with the confrontation.

This would meet the SYG provision of:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony;

This is probably what AC was talking about when she was on NG....

Interesting. Is it possible the state is going to try to claim that in the car and on foot were two separate instances in order to meet the stalking criteria? Very interesting. But I'm not sure it will fly.

 

[RANCH]

Interesting. Is it possible the state is going to try to claim that in the car and on foot were two separate instances in order to meet the stalking criteria? Very interesting. But I'm not sure it will fly.

If the state tries to claim that GZ was stalking Trayvon, I think that the defense will bring up the fact that they didn't charge him with that crime. The jury will probably wonder why. I know that I do. JMO.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

My understanding is they DID charge GZ with stalking... :waitasec:
Here's the Florida statute under which George Zimmerman has been charged with second degree murder.
It's 782.04 2n: unpremeditated murder as a result of aggravated stalking.

782.04 Murder.—
(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:

1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;

2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),

b. Arson,

c. Sexual battery,

d. Robbery,

e. Burglary,

f. Kidnapping,

g. Escape,

h. Aggravated child abuse,

i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,

j. Aircraft piracy,

k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,

l. Carjacking,

m. Home-invasion robbery,

n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,

p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,

q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism;

Thank You, Marlame...for finding this..Can you place it in the documents thread or a proper thread so we have this handy???

 

[Sherbie]

I'm trying to find an official document that lists the statute under which Zimmerman is charged to see whether he's been charged under (2) or (3) below (both are second degree murder).

Best I can tell, if it's 782.04(2), aggravated stalking is not applicable. But if it's 782.04(3), it could be, and if it's 782.04(3)(n), it definitely is. I've had no luck on the official court site finding something with the actual charging statute enumerated beyond "second degree murder." Anyone else? Thanks!

Here's the entire murder statute for context, with second degree murder (emphasis mine).

782.04 Murder.—

(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:
1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,
p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or

3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium, or methadone by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,

is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.

(b) In all cases under this section, the procedure set forth in s. 921.141 shall be followed in order to determine sentence of death or life imprisonment.

(2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(3) When a person is killed in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
(a) Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
(b) Arson,
(c) Sexual battery,
(d) Robbery,
(e) Burglary,
(f) Kidnapping,
(g) Escape,
(h) Aggravated child abuse,
(i) Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
(j) Aircraft piracy,
(k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
(l) Carjacking,
(m) Home-invasion robbery,
(n) Aggravated stalking,
(o) Murder of another human being,
(p) Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, or
(q) Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism

by a person other than the person engaged in the perpetration of or in the attempt to perpetrate such felony, the person perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate such felony is guilty of murder in the second degree, which constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(Florida Statutes: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ring&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html)

 

[Sherbie]

Thank You, Marlame...for finding this..Can you place it in the documents thread or a proper thread so we have this handy???

(1)(a) is actually the first degree murder language. Second degree is covered under (2) and (3) [with parentheses], though the a. through q. sections are the same for (1)(a)2 and (3). The way it reads on the statutes page is a little confusing because they don't use any indentation to set apart the sections.

 

[Elley Mae]

I'm trying to find an official document that lists the statute under which Zimmerman is charged to see whether he's been charged under (2) or (3) below (both are second degree murder).

Best I can tell, if it's 782.04(2), aggravated stalking is not applicable. But if it's 782.04(3), it could be, and if it's 782.04(3)(n), it definitely is. I've had no luck on the official court site finding something with the actual charging statute enumerated beyond "second degree murder." Anyone else? Thanks!

Here's the entire murder statute for context, with second degree murder (emphasis mine).

782.04 Murder.—

(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:
1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,
p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or

3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium, or methadone by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,

is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.

(b) In all cases under this section, the procedure set forth in s. 921.141 shall be followed in order to determine sentence of death or life imprisonment.

(2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(3) When a person is killed in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
(a) Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
(b) Arson,
(c) Sexual battery,
(d) Robbery,
(e) Burglary,
(f) Kidnapping,
(g) Escape,
(h) Aggravated child abuse,
(i) Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
(j) Aircraft piracy,
(k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
(l) Carjacking,
(m) Home-invasion robbery,
(n) Aggravated stalking,
(o) Murder of another human being,
(p) Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, or
(q) Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism

by a person other than the person engaged in the perpetration of or in the attempt to perpetrate such felony, the person perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate such felony is guilty of murder in the second degree, which constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(Florida Statutes: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ring&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html)

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/336022/zimmerman-probable-cause-document.txt

 

[Sherbie]

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/336022/zimmerman-probable-cause-document.txt

Thanks, Elley. I read the PC affidavit and don't see the statute listed. Usually we see something like "in violation of <insert statute here>." Either I'm blind as a bat or it's not cited. I can't find it in any of the court documents. Seems like some document somewhere would list the exact statute and subsections that apply.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/88952000/George-Zimmerman-Information-Document

charging document

I believe Marlame is reading this wrong..I was just given a lesson on the prosecution thread...

Sorry for any confusion, there is no stalking charge for GZ...too bad, I believe there should be an added aggravated circumstance to his actions..

 

[Elley Mae]

Thanks, Elley. I read the PC affidavit and don't see the statute listed. Usually we see something like "in violation of <insert statute here>." Either I'm blind as a bat or it's not cited. I can't find it in any of the court documents. Seems like some document somewhere would list the exact statute and subsections that apply.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/120411_Zimmerman_Capias.pdf

:seeya:

 

[Sherbie]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/88952000/George-Zimmerman-Information-Document

charging document

I believe Marlame is reading this wrong..I was just given a lesson on the prosecution thread...

Sorry for any confusion, there is no stalking charge for GZ...too bad, I believe there should be an added aggravated circumstance to his actions..

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I could find only the capias return, and it didn't have the info we needed. I agree with you - looks like he's charged under section (2) rather than (3), so the stalking or other offenses in the list wouldn't apply.

 

[Reader]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I could find only the capias return, and it didn't have the info we needed. I agree with you - looks like he's charged under section (2) rather than (3), so the stalking or other offenses in the list wouldn't apply.

Here's a link to the Arraignment minutes which also lists sections of the law:

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/arraignment minutes.pdf

Charge of Murder in the Second Degree 782.04 (2) 775.087 (1) (A) F-L

I'll add this to the document section also.

No harm done on this research....we're all just trying to learn and get information...thanks for everybody's efforts!

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

Mayor Bloomberg has made gun control one of his signature issues, and his administration harbors the long-term hope of making Mayors Against Illegal Guns, which he co-founded in 2006 and essentially controls, an effective counterweight to the National Rifle Association. The N.R.A.has lobbied for Stand Your Ground laws across the country.

“The laws are not the kind of laws that a civilized society should have," said Bloomberg. "And the N.R.A. should be ashamed of themselves. This has nothing to do with gun owners' rights, it’s nothing to do with the Second Amendment. Plain and simple, this is just trying to give people a license to murder.”

According to data derived from the F.B.I. and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, and cited by the mayor's office on Wednesday, since passage of Stand Your Ground in Florida, it has seen the number of justifiable homicide cases rise from an average of 12 per year to 36; in the three years Texas has had a similar law, it has seen a rise from 26 to 45. And in the four years Arizona has had a Stand Your Ground law, it's seen such cases rise from 10 per year to 15.

http://www.capitalnewyork.com/artic...ra-and-shoot-first-laws-just-charges-against-