For those who agree with the verdict...help me understand.

[MyTinkieGirl]

NOT at all my opinion...but, just had a discussion with my cousin who lives in Boca...he didn't follow the case as fanatically as I did. He watched the closing statements....he said no matter what else was said BEFORE the trial in the documents....or the actual evidence shown in trial....he said JB/CM gave the BEST closing he has ever seen and the "visuals" were what got him convinced and he didn't have a second thought about ANYTHING else!! And the jury probably didn't either.


So...I'm guessing the "magnetic" people and "blank" faced imaginary friends did the trick!!

 

[songline]

BBM. But instead, she accused him of molesting her. And, (IMO) insinuated that he had molested Caylee. We'll never know what really went on in that house or what really happened to Caylee, and for me, that is the hardest part -- even harder to deal with than the verdict.

I seem to believe that it was all staged. ALL of it including throwing GA under the bus.
WHY.
IF they make George, the bad person all eyes are on GA not on KC.
They intentionally made this story up, and GA probably choreographed it.
I think GA rather look like the bad Dad then have his daughter on Death row.
MO

 

[Puzzler]

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx7t.htm

Antisocial personality disorder is often misunderstood by both professionals and laypeople. Confused with the popular terms, "sociopath" or "psychopath," someone who suffers from this disorder can be discriminated against within the mental health system, because of the symptoms of their disorder. Because there is usually a pervasive lack of remorse, and many time any feelings at all, they are assumed not to have any real feelings by many professionals. This can lead to difficulties within treatment.

My question was in response to your statement: "but it's factually untrue a sociopath can't be helped. It's not an easy fix but it can and has been done often."

I was asking for documentation for any specific example. You say sociopaths have "often" been fixed, I'm just asking for one specific case--not a generalization about hypothetical cases.

 

[CarrieSis]

I was one of the few who supported this in the "If you were on the jury" thread. (No, that's not an "I told you so"...plz continue reading).

I think Nancy Grace is an abomination and that she, and other media reports that followed, demonized KC to a HUGE extent. To be fair, she gave them plenty of material to do it with. If I was ever tried for a crime - any crime - just due to my surfing habits and morbid interests you're going to find a LOT of weird things in my cache. A LOT.

My mother passed away on June 7th. We were very close. I reacted very badly to it, in ways I did not expect.. I partied. I put myself into some compromising positions at a bar. I entered two new relationships within days of each other. I drank a lot at times. I finally realized what I was doing last week and it took a LOT out of me to re-focus my grief into "more appropriate" things. And I didn't kill my mother. I was doing anything and everything to "feel better" and to focus on the sensation of being alive and being in the moment. And nowhere I went, no one I saw, etc were reminders of my mom. I couldn't take it.

Until that happened, I couldn't "get" the partying of Casey at all. I thought that sort of reaction as grief was, if anything, forced denial. Now, I do wonder.

I/we may never know exactly what happened to Caylee. But I think the prosecution over-reached based on a lot of inflammatory stuff that didn't actually have to do with Caylee's *death* (the partying pics, etc). There were so many vocal people who outright HATED KC and wanted her to "hang" for this that I think they believed they could get the conviction.

In the end, they just didn't prove the charges. I do wonder if in FL if there is a charge for "negligent homicide" or similar. I believe the jury couldn't quite find for "aggravated", but have wondered why something more akin to negligent homicide wasn't pursued as I believe that case could have been more easily proven.

 

[Donnabert]

Why would Casey sit in jail making up stories about Zanny the Nanny to protect George, who she hated if this was just a big accident? Surely JB (who was hired by Casey on July 16th or 17th) would advise her to spit it out so she could go home. Surely once she was denied bail, she would have talked. The duct tape could have been explained away by bugs or bodily fluids leaking. Why why why ? This is why I think she was guilty....and I can't figure out why the jury didn't see this.

You are putting the burden on the defense instead of the state. You are asking the defense to explain what happened, which is contrary to the law. The jury, however, understood the law and felt the prosecution failed to do that.

 

[Donnabert]

Nice post, CarrieSis. Thanks for sharing!

 

[darcedarce]

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx7t.htm

Antisocial personality disorder is often misunderstood by both professionals and laypeople. Confused with the popular terms, "sociopath" or "psychopath," someone who suffers from this disorder can be discriminated against within the mental health system, because of the symptoms of their disorder. Because there is usually a pervasive lack of remorse, and many time any feelings at all, they are assumed not to have any real feelings by many professionals. This can lead to difficulties within treatment.

Sociopathy is a particularly severe form of antisocial personality disorder.

 

[darcedarce]

My question was in response to your statement: "but it's factually untrue a sociopath can't be helped. It's not an easy fix but it can and has been done often."

I was asking for documentation for any specific example. You say sociopaths have "often" been fixed, I'm just asking for one specific case--not a generalization about hypothetical cases.

I'm interested as well.

 

[cluciano63]

The State proved Casey was a partying, self-absorbed, thoughtless, over-the-top kinda girl...they proved she was a liar, but no one disputed that, not even Casey. They proved she did not report her daughter missing, but there wasn't a charge that covered that specifically. What else did they really prove?

 

[kgeaux]

IMO, the absence of blowflies in the trunk really hurt the prosecution's assertion that the body was hidden there for days. If that body had been in that trunk, there would have been signs of those flies all over the place. None of them in there? Reasonable doubt that the body was ever in the trunk. The absence of a photo of the heart-shape allegedly left on the duct tape left that allegation without any value at all as evidence.....If that forensics expert had truly, truly believed that what she saw was left by a little sticker placed over the mouth, she would have stopped what she was doing and photographed it. The fact that the science about the "death band" on the hair is not without controversy made me question the authenticity of the finding. The air testing is also controversial. Even the FBI report on the results of the air test state that the result does NOT mean there was HUMAN decomposition! Didn't hear that lil fact mentioned too often on Nancy Grace, did we? The fact that there was NO evidence that Caylee had ever been drugged when her hair was tested was important, at least in my mind. Roy Kronk's testimony that he moved the skull with a stick brings into question how the duct tape was actually attached to the head. It was not stuck to the jaw, it wasn't stuck to anything but Caylee's sweet little hair: His interference with the crime scene means there is reasonable doubt that the duct tape had been placed around her nose and mouth. All of the things I've listed have been sensationalized in the "Nancy Grace" type shows as "proof" that Caylee was murdered, ESPECIALLY the "news" we heard over and over that Zanny the Nanny meant Casey was repetitively drugging Caylee to get her out of the way so she could party. And there is no evidence to support that, and sound evidence that in fact CAYLEE WAS NOT DRUGGED. This in particular introduces reasonable doubt to me-----if she was never drugged, it becomes a real possibility that the child died accidentally.

The prosecutor has said that ALL the evidence was presented. I've read so many posts on this forum pertaining to "just wait until the jury knows everything we know! Then they will know they made a mistake." My belief is that the truth is JUST THE OPPOSITE. Many of us have listened to talking heads pulling ***** out of the air for years, and some of us have believed they knew what they were talking about. The jury actually heard all of the evidence, untainted by the opinions of talking heads. And they decided-----ALL of them-----that there was reasonable doubt.

In my opinion, the prosecution failed to prove that Caylee was murdered. Or who did it. This was the poorest prosecution I have EVER watched. Ever.

Truly, I thought public pressure would make the jury unable to actually decide "Not Guilty." I thought this would end in a mistrial. I am thankful that they were able to vote with the confidence that they were making the right decision.

I do have suspicions that the defense theory of an accidental drowning with George's participation could be true......

 

[Donnabert]

Problem is prosecution is over confident and they thought they got this.
I am referring to the jurors - they handed a NOT GUILTY verdict because there is a reasonable doubt.. fine - hung jury/mistrial - whatever...Difficult to find that 12 people in the jury had same decision over this.... is there any information that is privy to them alone?

Why would judge attach a double jeopardy on a mistrial? ... in USA, Hung Jury can be tried again- am i missing anything?

Yeah, you are missing that it WASN'T a hung jury. Did you hear the jury being polled after the verdict? They came to a unanimous decision on all counts and found her not guilty on all the felony counts. That isn't a hung jury....

 

[February]

I seem to believe that it was all staged. ALL of it including throwing GA under the bus.
WHY.
IF they make George, the bad person all eyes are on GA not on KC.
They intentionally made this story up, and GA probably choreographed it.
I think GA rather look like the bad Dad then have his daughter on Death row.
MO

I agree with you.
But i do believe that JB provided the script.
This is his only battle to stardrom... he wanted to be a big shot so he played with the family and they all agreed, cooperated and fooled people along the way.

 

[Donnabert]

The DT is NOT going to encourage her to get help. They think she is just fine. They believe she should be walking free.

Casey is going to be pregnant within the year. She is also going to cash in and make a million bucks or so immediately upon her release for the film and book deals. She is going to live in a big house and have a REAL nanny and be the same narcissistic sociopath as before, only this time she will be a rich and famous one. imoo

I don't think she's a sociopath, but even if she was, that is a medical diagnosis, not a personality falw. Sociopaths don't choose to be so...

 

[songline]

How could they have convicted her of Aggravated Child Abuse?

The Florida code defines the crime of Aggravated Child Abuse as:

1. Committing an aggravated battery on a child;
2. Willfully torturing, maliciously punishing, or willfully and unlawfully caging a child; or
3. Knowingly or willfully abusing a child and in so doing causing great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the child.

A child is defined as any person under the age of 18.


1. There is no evidence that Casey committed battery on Caylee
2. There is no evidence that Casey tortured, overly punished or caged Caylee
3. There is no evidence that Casey knowingly and willfully abused Caylee

The only way that this charge might have stuck was as an add-on - If the jury could be convinced that Casey murdered Caylee, then the chances are that one of the three scenarios applied.

The charge that the prosecutors SHOULD have brought was probably Negligent Homicide (I think it's called "Manslaughter by Culpable Negligence" in Florida, but don't quote me).

The thing with the law is that it is precise. It is not emotional, and that''s a good thing. In order to prove a crime, exact points must be proven, and those point must correspond to the specific law. That is a protection that we are given in this country - a basic human right.

The State went for ALL or NOTHING!. They got nothing.
Based on the evidence of what can be shown to the jury they gambled big time.

 

[songline]

IMO, the absence of blowflies in the trunk really hurt the prosecution's assertion that the body was hidden there for days. If that body had been in that trunk, there would have been signs of those flies all over the place. None of them in there? Reasonable doubt that the body was ever in the trunk. The absence of a photo of the heart-shape allegedly left on the duct tape left that allegation without any value at all as evidence.....If that forensics expert had truly, truly believed that what she saw was left by a little sticker placed over the mouth, she would have stopped what she was doing and photographed it. The fact that the science about the "death band" on the hair is not without controversy made me question the authenticity of the finding. The air testing is also controversial. Even the FBI report on the results of the air test state that the result does NOT mean there was HUMAN decomposition! Didn't hear that lil fact mentioned too often on Nancy Grace, did we? The fact that there was NO evidence that Caylee had ever been drugged when her hair was tested was important, at least in my mind. Roy Kronk's testimony that he moved the skull with a stick brings into question how the duct tape was actually attached to the head. It was not stuck to the jaw, it wasn't stuck to anything but Caylee's sweet little hair: His interference with the crime scene means there is reasonable doubt that the duct tape had been placed around her nose and mouth. All of the things I've listed have been sensationalized in the "Nancy Grace" type shows as "proof" that Caylee was murdered, ESPECIALLY the "news" we heard over and over that Zanny the Nanny meant Casey was repetitively drugging Caylee to get her out of the way so she could party. And there is no evidence to support that, and sound evidence that in fact CAYLEE WAS NOT DRUGGED. This in particular introduces reasonable doubt to me-----if she was never drugged, it becomes a real possibility that the child died accidentally.

The prosecutor has said that ALL the evidence was presented. I've read so many posts on this forum pertaining to "just wait until the jury knows everything we know! Then they will know they made a mistake." My belief is that the truth is JUST THE OPPOSITE. Many of us have listened to talking heads pulling ***** out of the air for years, and some of us have believed they knew what they were talking about. The jury actually heard all of the evidence, untainted by the opinions of talking heads. And they decided-----ALL of them-----that there was reasonable doubt.

In my opinion, the prosecution failed to prove that Caylee was murdered. Or who did it. This was the poorest prosecution I have EVER watched. Ever.

Truly, I thought public pressure would make the jury unable to actually decide "Not Guilty." I thought this would end in a mistrial. I am thankful that they were able to vote with the confidence that they were making the right decision.

I do have suspicions that the defense theory of an accidental drowning with George's participation could be true......

Anything to do with the car is also a result of LE not confiscating that car right after they hung up from CA's 911 call. Within minutes, they should have been there. CA told them it smelled like death.
However if Caylee drowned accidentally which is very possible I do not think GA knew it immediately because he would not have allowed her to put evidence in the car that he knew only too well is a smell you cannot cure.
I think that KC told him after a little time. And GA was worried that the 911 call was not made immediately so he went right into Ex LE Murder investigator mind and did salvage for KC whatever he could. I called it the master clean up, misdirect, and circus for evading.

 

[Karmaa]

I was one of the few who supported this in the "If you were on the jury" thread. (No, that's not an "I told you so"...plz continue reading).

I think Nancy Grace is an abomination and that she, and other media reports that followed, demonized KC to a HUGE extent. To be fair, she gave them plenty of material to do it with. If I was ever tried for a crime - any crime - just due to my surfing habits and morbid interests you're going to find a LOT of weird things in my cache. A LOT.

My mother passed away on June 7th. We were very close. I reacted very badly to it, in ways I did not expect.. I partied. I put myself into some compromising positions at a bar. I entered two new relationships within days of each other. I drank a lot at times. I finally realized what I was doing last week and it took a LOT out of me to re-focus my grief into "more appropriate" things. And I didn't kill my mother. I was doing anything and everything to "feel better" and to focus on the sensation of being alive and being in the moment. And nowhere I went, no one I saw, etc were reminders of my mom. I couldn't take it.

Until that happened, I couldn't "get" the partying of Casey at all. I thought that sort of reaction as grief was, if anything, forced denial. Now, I do wonder.

I/we may never know exactly what happened to Caylee. But I think the prosecution over-reached based on a lot of inflammatory stuff that didn't actually have to do with Caylee's *death* (the partying pics, etc). There were so many vocal people who outright HATED KC and wanted her to "hang" for this that I think they believed they could get the conviction.

In the end, they just didn't prove the charges. I do wonder if in FL if there is a charge for "negligent homicide" or similar. I believe the jury couldn't quite find for "aggravated", but have wondered why something more akin to negligent homicide wasn't pursued as I believe that case could have been more easily proven.

One of my professors (psych) mentioned recently that Casey's behavior was similar to what one would experience during a manic phase following a traumatic encounter.

Some symptoms of mania are: (note: I just pulled this list off the web)
* Extreme irritability & distractibility
* Excessive "high" or euphoric feelings
* Sustained periods of unusual, even bizarre, behavior with significant risk-taking
* Increased energy, activity, rapid talking & thinking, agitation
* Decreased sleep
* Unrealistic belief in one's own abilities
* Poor judgment
* Increased sex drive
* Substance abuse
* Provocative or obnoxious behavior
* Denial of problem

In reality, patients in a manic stage often engage in irrational over-spending sprees or sexual liaisons, maybe gambling away their life's savings, etc. There is normally a great display of "grandiosity".

If you look at Casey's behavior many MANY of her actions can be explained using just that list and knowledge of manic behaviors. Of course, I have no idea if this is true or not. I don't know if she has ever been diagnosed as bi-polar, but it would not surprise me.

Either way - whether Casey killed Caylee, if it was an accident, or if Casey knows who did - this mania would easily explain her actions. It make much more sense to me than Casey being a wild party girl happy to be rid of the little burden.

By the way - I totally agree about Nancy Grace. I stopped watching her during the Natalee Holloway craziness. She is an evil, vile, horrid woman. It's really a shame, because her program could provide such a service to society, but instead she just shrieks whatever her own gut feeling is, ad nauseum. It's hard to believe that she used to be a prosecutor. That woman has nothing but a hell-bent fury and hatred, with zero ability to think critically.

 

[kgeaux]

Good post....great planning by Casey to hide the body long enough, so that all the good evidence would go away with time. She really did her research and great planning/premeditation. She knew exactly what she was doing.

With all due respect, do you really believe that the body not being found for so long was due to Casey's good planning?? It was a quarter of a mile from her home! If LE had searched that area thoroughly before the tropical storm, they would have found it. Presuming it was there back then. If the storm interrupted the search, then LE should have been back out there the day the water went down.

Caylee's body wasn't found because LE dropped the ball.

the Jury has the right to declare this as a Hung jury if they believe they cant get a decision. IMO
They have a decision ...not guilty IMO
They chose it for their financial gain IMO.
Wait for their books, exclusive interviews, pictures and etc...they believe that if OJ Jurors were able to live with it, they can IMO..

Putting Casey to Jail doesnt mean anything to them, they will go back home, to their jobs and make less... they want to get paid more for the time they spent there ..

Sorry am just saying how i feel and guess.
Alternate Juror has to come now, coz his words later doesnt mean squat when the real jurors start talking..

Go figure..

I respect your feelings. This verdict has left a lot of people with strong feelings. I do hope you will reconsider blaming the verdict on the greed of jurors for financial gain. The burden of proving the case was on the prosecution, and the prosecution did not prove it.

Anything to do with the car is also a result of LE not confiscating that car right after they hung up from CA's 911 call. Within minutes, they should have been there. CA told them it smelled like death.
However if Caylee drowned accidentally which is very possible I do not think GA knew it immediately because he would not have allowed her to put evidence in the car that he knew only too well is a smell you cannot cure.
I think that KC told him after a little time. And GA was worried that the 911 call was not made immediately so he went right into Ex LE Murder investigator mind and did salvage for KC whatever he could. I called it the master clean up, misdirect, and circus for evading.

I don't think anyone could have cleaned out the trunk well enough to remove the evidence of blowflies. Flies were found in the bag with Caylee's remains, and if that body had been in the trunk, they'd have been there, too. It is possible that the remains were never in the trunk! The best testing by FBI failed to conclusively place a body in that trunk!

I think the only thing that was really proved is that Caylee died, somehow. And her body was disposed of, by somebody. And that the family is off-the-charts disfunctional, and all of them are liars.

One of my professors (psych) mentioned recently that Casey's behavior was similar to what one would experience during a manic phase following a traumatic encounter.

Some symptoms of mania are: (note: I just pulled this list off the web)
* Extreme irritability & distractibility
* Excessive "high" or euphoric feelings
* Sustained periods of unusual, even bizarre, behavior with significant risk-taking
* Increased energy, activity, rapid talking & thinking, agitation
* Decreased sleep
* Unrealistic belief in one's own abilities
* Poor judgment
* Increased sex drive
* Substance abuse
* Provocative or obnoxious behavior
* Denial of problem

In reality, patients in a manic stage often engage in irrational over-spending sprees or sexual liaisons, maybe gambling away their life's savings, etc. There is normally a great display of "grandiosity".

If you look at Casey's behavior many MANY of her actions can be explained using just that list and knowledge of manic behaviors. Of course, I have no idea if this is true or not. I don't know if she has ever been diagnosed as bi-polar, but it would not surprise me.

Either way - whether Casey killed Caylee, if it was an accident, or if Casey knows who did - this mania would easily explain her actions. It make much more sense to me than Casey being a wild party girl happy to be rid of the little burden.

By the way - I totally agree about Nancy Grace. I stopped watching her during the Natalee Holloway craziness. She is an evil, vile, horrid woman. It's really a shame, because her program could provide such a service to society, but instead she just shrieks whatever her own gut feeling is, ad nauseum. It's hard to believe that she used to be a prosecutor. That woman has nothing but a hell-bent fury and hatred, with zero ability to think critically.

Wow! Casey could be a poster girl for that list!

Totally agree about Nancy Grace.

 

[Littleone48]

One of my professors (psych) mentioned recently that Casey's behavior was similar to what one would experience during a manic phase following a traumatic encounter.

Some symptoms of mania are: (note: I just pulled this list off the web)
* Extreme irritability & distractibility
* Excessive "high" or euphoric feelings
* Sustained periods of unusual, even bizarre, behavior with significant risk-taking
* Increased energy, activity, rapid talking & thinking, agitation
* Decreased sleep
* Unrealistic belief in one's own abilities
* Poor judgment
* Increased sex drive
* Substance abuse
* Provocative or obnoxious behavior
* Denial of problem

In reality, patients in a manic stage often engage in irrational over-spending sprees or sexual liaisons, maybe gambling away their life's savings, etc. There is normally a great display of "grandiosity".

If you look at Casey's behavior many MANY of her actions can be explained using just that list and knowledge of manic behaviors. Of course, I have no idea if this is true or not. I don't know if she has ever been diagnosed as bi-polar, but it would not surprise me.

Either way - whether Casey killed Caylee, if it was an accident, or if Casey knows who did - this mania would easily explain her actions. It make much more sense to me than Casey being a wild party girl happy to be rid of the little burden.

By the way - I totally agree about Nancy Grace. I stopped watching her during the Natalee Holloway craziness. She is an evil, vile, horrid woman. It's really a shame, because her program could provide such a service to society, but instead she just shrieks whatever her own gut feeling is, ad nauseum. It's hard to believe that she used to be a prosecutor. That woman has nothing but a hell-bent fury and hatred, with zero ability to think critically.

Excellent post! Many people will not agree with this however I have thought this for a long time.

manic phases: For young woman this is about the average age that the first manic episode occurs. Usually there is something that triggers it. ?The fight with her mom?

I just read the letters she sent to another inmate and the rambling, the going from one subject to another, she was writing almost like she was high, nervous etc. Classic sign of a manic episode.

manic
· adj.
1 Psychiatry relating to or affected by mania.
2 showing wild excitement and energy.– DERIVATIVES manically adv.

 

[cityslick]

I may not be able to answer the question completely but here’s something to think about…..Reasonable doubt. How well was this explained to the jury? IMO not very. Maybe JP didn’t want to try this case again because any guilty verdict would bring forth a lot of appeals and the spending goes on and on. I feel he could have explained it much more than he did. Conflicting, confusing, lying testimony. The State having the Anthonys (know liars and guilty of obstructing the case) as their star witnesses. It took the defense to explain what a filthy family they really are. And that’s just the beginning,,, how about going for the death penalty when there are large gaps in your theory not to mention many detours such as not finding the body in August and the confusing testimony of Kronk.

At the very least, she should have been found guilty of negligent homicide. There was enough evidence for that with just the not reporting Caylee missing…..The Anthonys managed to confuse and divert the evidence while shedding the light of suspicion on themselves to derail any conviction and that was their plan all along. Just have to add that they never should have been allowed to sit in the court room during the trial. What was the State thinking?

BBM

I agree with you, but she was never charged with that. Or at least, that wasn't one of the charges the jury was supposed to consider.

 

[onewick]

Someone please explain to me how Child Neglect that resulted in Death is not Child Abuse??? Please?????????????????