For those who agree with the verdict...help me understand.

[onewick]

And if the parent (Casey) was not responsible for the welfare of her child, who the heck was?

 

[burbqueen]

And the people that believe that Caylee drowned really have to stop and ask themselves why they believe that. There is no evidence. IMO i think thats what people want to believe and human psyche is amazing.

I cornered a friend of mine who believes this and guess what it boiled down to: She didnt look like a murderer! Thats right folks. She seemed like she loved her kid by just watching video clips and photos. ICA looked nice and was attractive. Oh and he said its hard for a mom to kill her kid. I just walked away...He wanted to believe she drowned cause the opposite was too much for his mind to process. I think alot of people dont wanna believe she murdered her child even in the face of evidence and everything. Unbelieveable!

 

[SilkySifaka]

I also think that the fact that 'reasonable doubt' is so hard to quantitatively define makes it hard on jurors. Where do you draw the line between 'reasonable' and 'speculative'?

Once you believe the accident theory is plausible (and I always believed whatever happened was an accident be it overdose or the pool) it is possible to put George smack into the middle of it. It is a reasonable doubt on whether casey did it and G and CA helped her cover it up or if G did it and threatened casey to cover it up.

Do I think it is likely? no. But the state certainly did not make me think it was unreasonable.

I think it is up to each person to see what they feel is reasonable, but imo the state never got past the death itself - was it accident/murder and who did it in the family. At least based on the trial. And the forensics were not good..not a case to try sniffing air science out on..made the PT look like they were desperate.

 

[SilkySifaka]

The DA should have adjusted the charges according to the evidence that MOST LIKELY was going to assure a conviction. They took a huge gamble, and unfortunately lost. I find it completely plausible that ICA was neglecting Caylee, found her floating in the pool and took measures to cover it up and was relieved that she was no longer saddled with the responsibility of motherhood. Mother Nature, time and pathology created the perfect storm and now she gets off. Personally, I believe the duct tape doesn't prove anything in particular. It's an oddity, but just one of many things that doesn't add up in this whole sordid affair. People aren't (or at least shouldn't be) put to death because they are morally bankrupt and despicable. There is still the burden of proof that has to be met. If they could go back and revise the charges, I believe they would.

Excellent excellent post. I think it is the way I feel the most. I could see some jurors wondering about George but i personally would have thought accident and the behavior afterward was despicable. Not though proof of murder

 

[MarthaM]

I don't think it's so much that people believe Caylee drowned, it's that they don't know how she died. There are many possibilities for what 'could have' happened. The point is that the prosecution didn't prove what they said 'did' happen. The burden of proof is on them in a criminal trial and they just didn't prove their case.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I would like to know why George's 20 something year old gas can (the same can he won't admit to placing the "messy" duct tape on) had not one fingerprint on it. A 20 year old gas can with no fingerprints?!?

 

[SilkySifaka]

I think the jurors believed it was an accident but I am confused then on why they couldn't charge her with a crime for covering it up all this time.

Is it because there wasn't that charge for them to pick from? And what exactly would the charge be for that?

yes...no charge was given that they could use

 

[SilkySifaka]

I don't agree with the verdict - she should have gotten aggravated child abuse. However the things that I think helped the defense cast reasonable doubt:

1. River Cruz and "an accident that snowballed out of control"

2. Friends and Family stating she was a "good mother".

3. The grief expert - "there is no normal way to grieve".

4. Anthony's pet burial ritual - bags and duct tape - to show duct tape was not murder weapon.

5. Kronk - I have always been uncomfy with the kronk issue.

6. George's suicide letter - showing guilt? Did HHJP give the DT the idea?

7. JB's opening statement - it really kind of made you think "Hmmm.." even though there was no evidence to support it.

8. Cashback computer report - 84 myspace searches not chloroform

9. Ricardo Morales myspace picture "win her over with chloroform".

10. Forensic guy who testified in favour of DT re: flies in trunk.

11. JB dragging this case out for weeks and twisting facts around.

12. JB's smoozing with the jury every am and acting like he was being picked on by big bully JA.

13. Keeping ICA off of the witness stand.

14. "so what - she is a *advertiser censored* and a liar - not a murderer per JB.


These are the things that gave me an uneasy feeling.

In a circumstantial case they say its the cumulative evidence that puts it over reasonable doubt...reading your list imo puts the reasonable doubt in the case. Especially if all I knew was from the court room, none of the other things.

Good list...I don't think the pros did a good job dismantling the defence at all.and they didn't have to prove anything they said, it was up to the PT.

 

[onewick]

Someone please explain to me how Child Neglect that resulted in Death is not Child Abuse??? Please?????????????????

 

[SilkySifaka]

There's no way physically that the jury did all they were supposed to do to even get to the spot where they all agreed about no reasonable doubt. If the alternate can speak for most, then they didn't believe George, believed that cruz woman, yet didn't think Casey harmed her child! IMO, not getting in the thefts, Cindy thinking of taking custody, and not trying to prove that she did not plan to take Caylee anywhere that evening was the big mistake. I also blame the media and people like the Grunds, Padilla, and a few others who started this family dysfunction nonsense. They are still at it, too. It doesn't matter how dysfunctional a group is, each adult is responsible for his own actions. The jury believed the dysfunction is the cause of Casey not reporting an accident and totally discounted actual forensic evidence. Someone on FB said that it's as if the jurors believe the world is flat. It's true. New cutting edge evidence and research to prove crime yet some don't even try to make an effort in understanding. No real professionals on the jury either, some with only 11th grade education and criminal charges in their past. Big mistake.

Not true. Each of them may believe that Casey killed her. It is just that the state did not get over the reasonable doubt hurdle. And each and every one of them is allowed to end the trial believing guilt or innocence. If the vote is unanimous no one has to convince the other of something so there isn't much to go over.

 

[Mendara]

1. Not believing that the duct tape covered the mouth. With all the talk of animals and water degrading things and moving bones around, and the fact that I do believe Roy Kronk (not maliciously) interacted the bones, I consider it a reasonable doubt that there was some other explanation. One reasonable possibility I would consider is that whoever disposed of the body was trying to prevent fluids from leaking, or bugs from crawling into the mouth AFTER the child was dead.

2. At least some of the testimony from GA and CA was put into doubt. CA provably lied about the searches at that time of day. She was at work. GA I believe lied about the extent of his involvement with River Cruz. At the very least, he was pretty darn combative on the stand.

3. I found JB's argument that chloroform was looked up after seeing TL's graphic about it on FB was a reasonable doubt. He did apparently have an image on it on his page. The search was apparently done after this. One report said 84 hits, one said 1. The discrepancy, combined with the explanation, creates a reasonable doubt.

4. The story of burying pets did actually introduce a reasonable doubt. Someone tried to bury the child in the yard, but realized that was unreasonable, so disposed of it near the house. I think originally the body WAS buried, as well as the person (and I think it was Casey) could manage. But with all the animals and especially the water I think it would've 'bubbled up'.

An alternate reasonable scenario could be this: the child drowned. Casey, who obviously has poor coping skills and is immature in general, freaked out. She fell back to lying, because she was scared. She was in denial and freaked out and partied to try to forget it -- some people turn to drugs to drown things out, some to alcohol, she turned to partying. The body was in the car, and started to smell. She gave it the best burial she could in the swamp. Things DID spiral out of control for her. She had poor coping skills and just dealt with it totally and utterly wrong, Truth and Casey are just not acquainted with her. I doubt it even occurred to her to tell the truth! I don't think George told her "you will go to jail for the rest of your life" but she might have truly believed that.

Now, that said, I don't think that's what happened. I think she had a hand in the death. I just don't see how it was proved, because there's what I consider to be a reasonable alternative scenario above. Do I believe it? No, not really, but I'll allow it could have happened like that. She is immature enough, a pathological liar enough, sociopathic enough, and just plain batshit crazy enough to make me believe she could do utterly unbelievable things.

If I was on that jury, I would be dying to charge her with improperly disposing a body. Because I think the body was in the car. And though I think she probably had a hand in why there was a body, I think it's possible she didn't, under a reasonable (and not just out-and-out crazy) scenario.

The alternate scenario you presented above was not the claim of the defense. I can telly ou that would have been better, but the defense didn't even want her associated with the dumping of the body. So they threw George into the mix, then they threw Kronk in there to make you believe the tape was placed by him.

Your scenario may have made sense, but the defense's did not.

Just because she saw the photo of the chloroform image on Ricardo's face book, it does not mean she did not want to know how to make it to use it her herself. She did not search "what is chloroform" - she searched "how to make chloroform"

and it was in the trunk of the car.

 

[KariKae]

And the people that believe that Caylee drowned really have to stop and ask themselves why they believe that. There is no evidence. IMO i think thats what people want to believe and human psyche is amazing.

I cornered a friend of mine who believes this and guess what it boiled down to: She didnt look like a murderer! Thats right folks. She seemed like she loved her kid by just watching video clips and photos. ICA looked nice and was attractive. Oh and he said its hard for a mom to kill her kid. I just walked away...He wanted to believe she drowned cause the opposite was too much for his mind to process. I think alot of people dont wanna believe she murdered her child even in the face of evidence and everything. Unbelieveable!

Unfortunatley, I believe this is true for a lot of people. We don't want to believe young, attractive mothers kill their children. Just sets the bar a little bit higher for the state.

 

[SilkySifaka]

Someone please explain to me how Child Neglect that resulted in Death is not Child Abuse??? Please?????????????????

Someone on here and on tv today mentioned the agg child abuse actually was tied to the murder charge so that the death penalty came into play. Apparently they couldn't find her guilty of the one if the murder was not guilty.

someone correct me if I am wrong but it was something like "and given your guilty verdict of murder do you believe that the aggravated crime of child abuse was committed"

rather than a stand alone. At least that is my understanding.

 

[goatman]

I want to say something, and I know that I am not good with words sometimes so please understand what I am saying.

We didn't fail, whatever the outcome of this verdict was going to be---we didn't fail. The not guilty verdict felt like a punch in the stomach. After all the time, energy, money, and HOPE for justice we have invested in this to be told that the guilty was innocent was heart breaking.

But that doesn't mean we failed, or that justice failed. It doesn't take away the fact that as a society we sent a message to ICA and any other murdering mothers/fathers/parents/whoever that we are watching. That whether they want to bury their children in a tub, throw them out like trash, or simply "disappear" them. We will find them, we will hope, pray, and work towards and for justice. That doesn't end when the verdict is read. If she was found guilty we would have monitored who was visiting her, who was helping her, who was paying her; because she was found not guilty doesn't change that---it just makes it a bit more difficult.

We, as a society took a stand FOR Caylee, and we will continue to commiserate, empathize, and encourage those lives that ICA has intentionally (and maybe unintentionally) ruined, harmed, or besmirched.

We didn't fail, we refused to let Caylee's life and death be swept under the figurative rug. Something we continue to do with the many, many other cases here on Websleuths: Kyron, Juilette, Christian Choate, Sunny and Golden Boy...

It is hard to slueth, read, and open your hearts to those in pain, to delve into the lives of abused, murdered, and neglected children and adults. But we do it because to NOT do it would be a failure. To not remember these children, the lives they lived, and to hope, pray, and work for justice for each of them is the failure.

For the rest of her life, ICA will know that we know what she did. That we didn't and won't forget Caylee. She will know when she goes to a job interview (if that ever happens), when she is recognized in the grocery, or anytime a prospective boyfriend, friend, or random person Googles her name.

ICA will be free, but she will never have a "bella vita".

So, fellow sleuthers, I just want to encourage you to continue your work. I know that the emotional investment is difficult, sometimes hard to bear, but we have to---we have to remember the lives and deaths of these children. Standing alongside one another to protect, honor and love our greatest asset and the future---our children.

We are a voice in the darkness that say "I have forgotten"; as we fight for justice remember that we are fighting for the right for children to be children to live free, to imagine, to hope. We are petitioning courts, changing laws, and choosing to live for 'right'.

The verdict in this case was difficult to take. But please be encouraged other sleuthers, Caylee's life will be remembered, her death will be remember, and her murderess will never be truly free. We fought for justice and was able to bring ICA to face a jury of her peers---let us hope we can do the same for Kyron, Juilette, C.C., and Sunny.

With Hope
Goatman

 

[gngr~snap]

I don't agree with the verdict - she should have gotten aggravated child abuse. However the things that I think helped the defense cast reasonable doubt:

1. River Cruz and "an accident that snowballed out of control"
The fight the 15th- caylee ended up dead, CASEY was not supposed to leave the car.

2. Friends and Family stating she was a "good mother".

3. The grief expert - "there is no normal way to grieve".

4. Anthony's pet burial ritual - bags and duct tape - to show duct tape was not murder weapon.
or a sick family ritual JB profferedfor teh state, GA taking a 4 yr to have it put down... and not again til high school? guess she needed a to be reminded

5. Kronk - I have always been uncomfy with the kronk issue.

6. George's suicide letter - showing guilt? Did HHJP give the DT the idea?
what granparent commits suicide because a grandchild dies when they have there own children living? $$ was drying up ! it had beenan month since Caylee was found! EXCACTLY 14 days before Christmas
7. JB's opening statement - it really kind of made you think "Hmmm.." even though there was no evidence to support it.
Except a dead child decomposing int the woods?:waitasec:
8. Cashback computer report - 84 myspace searches not chloroform

9. Ricardo Morales myspace picture "win her over with chloroform".

10. Forensic guy who testified in favour of DT re: flies in trunk.
and Chloroform which is a pesticide
11. JB dragging this case out for weeks and twisting facts around.

12. JB's smoozing with the jury every am and acting like he was being picked on by big bully JA.

13. Keeping ICA off of the witness stand.

14. "so what - she is a *advertiser censored* and a liar - not a murderer per JB.


These are the things that gave me an uneasy feeling.

my comments below your questions
moo

 

[gngr~snap]

Someone please explain to me how Child Neglect that resulted in Death is not Child Abuse??? Please?????????????????

JUNE 16
Shirley Plesea to Pam Plesea
“She told me that Cindy and George are not being totally honest about that night...-" Then Cindy called her mother Shirley the next morning and told her that Casey had taken Caylee and the car before anyone woke up and was gone".
we know
*Cell pings and computer activity indicate Casey was in and/or near the home UNTIL mid afternoomn?

*Casey most certainly was not "gone" yet.

Cindy told police she could hear them "breathing" through the door that
morning?

CA doesn't get a pass form me for this!
Something happened to Caylee that night.

 

[leighg]

I reread what it takes to be found guilty of aggravated child abuse and I conceede this point to the jury. However, I still find that aggravated manslaughter was a viable option:

Aggravated manslaughter is an enhanced charge triggered by certain circumstances. Those include negligently causing the death of an elderly person; negligently causing the death of a person less than 18 years old; and negligently causing the death of fire or rescue personnel.

A caregivers failure or omission to provide a child with the care, supervision, and services necessary to maintain a child's physical and mental health, including, but not limited to, food, nutrition, clothing, shelter, supervision, medicine, and medical services that a prudent person would consider essential for the well-being of the child.


I guess that the jury couldn't determine if Casey was alone in the negligence or if perhaps George was also culpable and there was the reasonable doubt. I don't get it but I am clouded by all of the peripheral evidence not presented in court to the jury.

 

[leighg]

Someone please explain to me how Child Neglect that resulted in Death is not Child Abuse??? Please?????????????????

Child Neglect is not an option in aggravated child abuse under Fl statute. The jury seems to have felt that they did not have enough evidence :


Under Florida Statute Section 827.03(2), aggravated child abuse occurs when the defendant commits one of the following on a child:

aggravated battery,
willfully tortured,
maliciously punished,
willfully and unlawfully caged, or
willfully committed child abuse causing great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement.


Maybe if the SA listed negligent homicide or involuntary manslaughter there might have been a conviction but until we hear a consensus from the jury we just don't know what was in their minds.

 

[kgeaux]

And the people that believe that Caylee drowned really have to stop and ask themselves why they believe that. There is no evidence. IMO i think thats what people want to believe and human psyche is amazing.

Hopefully your friend is not an indicator of how the majority of people think. I don't know if anyone believes that Caylee drowned. I, and lots of others, believe it is a possibility. The defense did not have to prove that she drowned, the prosecution had to prove it was MURDER. And they didn't. IMO, they didn't prove much beyond Casey is a liar, and even her own lawyers agreed with that!

 

[Karmaa]

Someone please explain to me how Child Neglect that resulted in Death is not Child Abuse??? Please?????????????????

If you are referring to the post where I asked how they could convict her of Aggravated Child Abuse, then I think you misunderstood. I was talking about the LEGAL requirements for that charge. The legal requirements are often quite different than people think. Certain specifics need to be met, and my point was that the requirements for Aggravated Child Abuse were not met in this case.

There were several other charges that she probably could have been convicted on, but she was never charged with those things. It's a shame.