For Those Who Do Think Avery was Framed & Evidence Planted - Discuss

[missy1974]

BBM

How would the alleged framers/killers know that Teresa wouldn't be reported missing until 3 days would pass?

They didn't need to know that.... it's a fact. They had 3 days. My scenario does not depend on how many days they had.

They could have burned her body and hidden the RAV4 on the 31st/1st and gone back to it later.

If they were close to TH, it's more likely that they would "know" when she was reported missing and the search was on too.

I still think that if SA burned her in the burnpit that night, he was sure taking a risk... and SA had no clue whether she would be missed at 4pm, 5pm, 7pm, midnight... the next day, the day after, etc. Now you wanna talk about luck, that would be lucky for him that they didn't come for a visit that night JMO

 

[hoshizora]

There have been recent cases that have claimed police tampering. For example, this one that I talked about before http://www.smh.com.au/national/judgment-day-rayney-murder-trial-20121101-28lqy.html

I also think it's easy to keep things quiet. Some people have been missing for years, serial killers haven't been caught. If people "cracked" after a few years then we would have a lot of solved cases. Lots of people have been missing for 5+ years. Even Lenk and Colborn have been proven to keep things quiet and sat on the statement they had from the LE at Brown county, who says they are not doing it here? And as shadowraiths said, a lot of conspiracies have come true like MK Ulta.

Some people have claimed that even the body was planted and they got it from somewhere else and it's not TH. I didn't initially believe that but I do think now that the family don't have the body and the carelessness they used to excavate the remains, it could be possible. (Although I know another case where LE went in with a backhoe so it could just be LE being careless). SA said they have the gates open, house open. It would be easy for someone to access his house, according to him.

The lack of TH DNA anywhere in the house, especially in the bedroom where she allegedly had her throat slashed and her hair cut, just doesn't add up. Unless SA picked up every bit of hair, which I don't believe.

 

[Madeleine74]

Isn't anyone who murders taking a risk? Isn't that kind of what goes with the territory in committing a felony? For that matter, isn't planting several different items, including human remains, also taking a big risk?

So no one knew how long it would take before TH was discovered to be missing. Same with SA and the same for anyone else. That fact doesn't really help or hurt anyone because it was what it was.

That means SA also had time. And he was right there on the property for a few days before leaving for Crivitz. He had the advantage in that he was on the property the entire time in those 3 days, he could have caught someone trespassing near his trailer, his dog could have alerted to someone trespassing, he had full access before any cop came sniffing around after Nov 3.

Why would the cops go to the trouble of burning TH's body in the first place? According to many, there wasn't even a bonfire going on in SA's burn pit because no one mentioned it right away when interviewed. So why would the cops think cremating TH would be a good thing to do? How does that help nail SA better than dumping her body on the property where it absolutely would have been found, and how does taking additional measures, ones that could have exposed their framing/conspiracy, like burning a body, make a stronger case against SA? And what if no one had found TH's bone fragments?

 

[shadowraiths]

As I stated in my previous post, after viewing the documentary, my opinion was that he may have been guilty. It wasn't until I started researching it myself that I realized what a cluster "bleep" this case actually was. I cannot find ONE piece of their so called "evidence" that stands up on its own without being questionable. The key, the bullet, most especially the bones, the blood in the RAV4, the RAV4, the gun (which has no blood spatter, SA fingerprints, DNA, nothing) which didn't even belong to him. No blood or DNA in the trailer or garage (supposedly cleaned with bleach) except for DEER blood. So SA knew which was human blood and which was deer blood? Really? Pam Sturm with her personal line to God, which led her to find that "hidden" van in under 30 minutes. Then I read about her supposed find of a cell phone by the Mishicot River during a search? EVERYTHING about this case is the strangest stuff I have ever heard. Even down to the Halbach family filing a civil suit against SA ONE day after his suit settled in a bid to keep him from getting adequate counsel for himself. A YEAR before he is even scheduled to go to court?

So yeah, I am now almost completely in the innocent and framed camp because why would all of this bogus crap have needed to be done if he was actually guilty? And my opinion came NOT from the documentary, but from me, myself, actually doing the research.

OMG! This is a totally quotable post! Especially the "personal line to God"! But yes, I, too, came away from the documentary thinking SA was guilty, while I very much questioned Brendan's conviction. And yes, as with you, reading the trial transcripts, I began to have second thoughts. Cluster "bleep" is an understatement!

There were a number of things I admittedly questioned in the documentary. For example, why would MH talk about the grieving process *before* anyone even knew whether or not Ms. Halbach was gone? His behavior, imho, is very suspicious. As was RH's. And of course, their seeming coziness.

It wasn't until I read the court documents, that I learned he was apparently cozy with Ms. Halbach's roommate as well. Then again, if Avery is actually innocent, and I'm yet to be convinced of that, I'm leaning toward a frat party gone bad scenario, as opposed to actual murder.

 

[Jaiddie]

OMG! This is a totally quotable post! Especially the "personal line to God"! But yes, I, too, came away from the documentary thinking SA was guilty, while I very much questioned Brendan's conviction. And yes, as with you, reading the trial transcripts, I began to have second thoughts. Cluster "bleep" is an understatement!

There were a number of things I admittedly questioned in the documentary. For example, why would MH talk about the grieving process *before* anyone even knew whether or not Ms. Halbach was gone? His behavior, imho, is very suspicious. As was RH's. And of course, their seeming coziness.

It wasn't until I read the court documents, that I learned he was apparently cozy with Ms. Halbach's roommate as well. Then again, if Avery is actually innocent, and I'm yet to be convinced of that, I'm leaning toward a frat party gone bad scenario, as opposed to actual murder.

I posted a quote from MH earlier in this thread from when he graduated from the University of Wisconsin, which basically sounded like, to me, he was saying "So what if I used my sister's tragedy to hone my skills in communications as, if not for that, I wouldn't be where I am today." (paraphrased that a bit) <modsnip> JMO.

To be honest with you, I have tried to stay away from theorizing what probably happened to TH, because that investigation was such a massive disgrace, there is NO WAY that anyone could come to any legitimate conclusions because it was never really investigated. Whatever happened to her I do NOT believe it happened on the Avery property for the reason I stated before. Why would LE have to go to so much trouble to convince everyone of his guilt (to the degrees they went to) if she really died on that property? All I know is that TH disappeared somewhere between 10/31 and 11/5 when her RAV4 was "found". She could have had an accident (her vehicle does show some major damage) and LE found her. It could have been any of the other questionable suspects ( I am not even including ANY of the other Avery's because I don't believe she died there) such as GZ, the attempted axe murderer, or even the suspect in waders the hunters called in about (coincidentally, they also said they saw a green SUV in that area, and that is also in the same approximate area that Pam Sturm allegedly found that mysterious cell phone during a search). Way too many possibilities for me to make an informed guess of what really happened to TH. And sadly, that is ALL down to LE who the Halbach family had such trust and love in. SMH. :notgood:

 

[dexter75]

YES!!!

The BOLD statement you have there, my hubby and I 100%

Along with photos and video of trial ( day 2 for example ) smirks and smiles on their faces...

OMG! This is a totally quotable post! Especially the "personal line to God"! But yes, I, too, came away from the documentary thinking SA was guilty, while I very much questioned Brendan's conviction. And yes, as with you, reading the trial transcripts, I began to have second thoughts. Cluster "bleep" is an understatement!

There were a number of things I admittedly questioned in the documentary. For example, why would MH talk about the grieving process *before* anyone even knew whether or not Ms. Halbach was gone? His behavior, imho, is very suspicious. As was RH's. And of course, their seeming coziness.

It wasn't until I read the court documents, that I learned he was apparently cozy with Ms. Halbach's roommate as well. Then again, if Avery is actually innocent, and I'm yet to be convinced of that, I'm leaning toward a frat party gone bad scenario, as opposed to actual murder.

 

[dexter75]

I think this has been discussed. In the DNA thread. I think DNA was explained also, along with what jurors must weigh and all that is presented, etc..

Every scientific expert uses terms like "consistent with" and there are reasons for that. Only DNA can be more precise and even that is never expressed as 100%.

When physical objects are compared (be it hair, fibers, bullets, fingerprints, footprints) there are specific tests each expert uses to make their determination with the technology and training they have. Can anything be absolutely 100% without a doubt? No, which is why the language takes that into consideration. Could there be another person in the entire universe who happens to have the exact same DNA as the sample tested (and the person was not an identical twin?). Yes, there could be, theoretically. So what would the chances of that be? That's where we see numbers like "a 1 in 10 billion" probability of the tested DNA matching someone else than the person they are trying to test.

Juries ultimately have to weigh the information given during testimony and decide whether to believe it or not, and how much weight to give it, if any.

 

[hoshizora]

I find it very interesting some of you saw the documentary and thought he was guilty (as apparently it's meant to be "biased" but you can only present what you have, especially if the prosecution side declines to be interviewed) then read about it as most people saw the doc and researched and thought he was guilty. I have delved further into the case after the documentary and have just found things that added more questions. I'm happy also by the fact that there are some people who are convinced of his guilt but don't believe the trial was fair and so there should be a new one.

To whoever posted this link about the bones, it's very interesting and raises more questions.

https://stopwrongfulconvictions.wor...e-bone-evidence-teresa-halbach-investigation/

 

[hoshizora]

It wasn't until I read the court documents, that I learned he was apparently cozy with Ms. Halbach's roommate as well. Then again, if Avery is actually innocent, and I'm yet to be convinced of that, I'm leaning toward a frat party gone bad scenario, as opposed to actual murder.

This is another possibility. Accidental death that was covered up. It would certainly better explain why her hair/blood was found in the boot of the car, if she was being moved from one location than it does SA putting her in the boot to burn her on his property.

 

[dexter75]

Thank YOU and agree with this 100%

:goodpost:

I agree with almost everything you said here, shadowraiths. After I had watched the documentary, I came away thinking that SA may have committed this murder, but he absolutely did NOT receive a fair trial. I thought BD was probably innocent period. Then I started to dig into the transcripts and evidence for myself as it was released and my opinion slowly started to change. Once I got to where I realized how they actually dealt with the bones allegedly found in the burn pit (link found below to a previous article from this same author), that is what cinched it for me, because their explanation made absolutely no sense. Why close out ONLY the Manitowoc Coroner when she had absolutely nothing to do with the civil lawsuit the county was facing, while at the same time allow numerous other MCSO LE, including a couple who had just been deposed several weeks before? And then THEY are the ones to find the key evidence?

I will say, I sometimes get aggravated at people who say that the documentary is biased and leaves out so much evidence. I can agree that some may see it as Avery friendly, but the film makers tried to get the prosecution's and the victim's family's side as well and were turned down so they had to work with what they had. I am not going to say that SA is a stellar and good guy. He clearly has many issues, which is not surprising seeing as how he spent 12 years in prison for something he didn't do. That would probably affect most people in a negative way. However, this does not make him a murderer. After researching this case as I have, the fact that soooo many areas of the investigation were deviations of protocol, makes me believe that without all of those deviations they wouldn't have had a case. I found that the documentary left out WAY more questions from the defense side of things, than it did of this "mountain of evidence" the prosecution's side is now screaming about in all the media.

Finally, my impressions of SA. As I stated before, I do not think that SA is the "happy, happy" guy his cousin tried to play off in the doc, but I am not going to paint him as a murdering rapist either. I know some of his past history is questionable, but I am not going to use allegations against him as gospel either. The one thing I came away from the documentary believing before anything else is his honesty. If he did something, he admitted it. He might have downplayed it, but he still admitted it. I do NOT believe Jodi, in her recent interviews, because she showed HERSELF in the show that she was jailed like 3 times trying to have contact with him after her PO told her to stay away from him. That does not make sense for someone who is scared for her life. She also drank, while SA didn't so I believe that fights between them was probably a two-way street. Drunk people tend to be very antagonistic, as well. As far as his threatening letters to his wife, yes they were wrong, but she was also part of that problem as well. She was sending him letters trying to get him to deal with the parole (by admitting to the rape he DIDN"T commit) so he could get out earlier. Those letters said she was going to kill his kids, so I could see where a man who is serving time wrongfully in the first place gets upset enough to send threatening letters right back.

Every interview that I have seen of SA, he comes across as to me as entirely truthful and consistent, so SA is not only the Dexter Morgan of Manitowoc County, but he is apparently also an Oscar award worthy actor as well, I guess.

https://justiceforbradcooper.wordpr...e-mishandled-in-teresa-halbach-investigation/

 

[Madeleine74]

She could have had an accident (her vehicle does show some major damage)

Her front light and blinker were damaged and there was minor cosmetic damage to the front bumper. How is that damage considered 'major'? Didn't impact the ability for the vehicle to be driven.

What hasn't been determined is when that damage occurred to her SUV. It's possible her family may have the answer to that, and it's possible that damage to her SUV had nothing at all to do with October 31.

 

[dexter75]

" I'm happy also by the fact that there are some people who are convinced of his guilt but don't believe the trial was fair and so there should be a new one. "

Thank you for this!!
Me too!

I find it very interesting some of you saw the documentary and thought he was guilty (as apparently it's meant to be "biased" but you can only present what you have, especially if the prosecution side declines to be interviewed) then read about it as most people saw the doc and researched and thought he was guilty. I have delved further into the case after the documentary and have just found things that added more questions. I'm happy also by the fact that there are some people who are convinced of his guilt but don't believe the trial was fair and so there should be a new one.

To whoever posted this link about the bones, it's very interesting and raises more questions.

https://stopwrongfulconvictions.wor...e-bone-evidence-teresa-halbach-investigation/

 

[dexter75]

Weren't here front light and blinker removed? Gone? Tossed in the back? A wheel well missing??

Her front light and blinker were damaged and there was minor cosmetic damage to the front bumper. How is that damage considered 'major'? Didn't impact the ability for the vehicle to be driven.

What hasn't been determined is when that damage occurred to her SUV. It's possible her family may have the answer to that, and it's possible that damage to her SUV had nothing at all to do with October 31.

 

[Jaiddie]

Her front light and blinker were damaged and there was minor cosmetic damage to the front bumper. How is that damage considered 'major'? Didn't impact the ability for the vehicle to be driven.

What hasn't been determined is when that damage occurred to her SUV. It's possible her family may have the answer to that, and it's possible that damage to her SUV had nothing at all to do with October 31.

Yea, didn't really expect my statement to be taken quite so literally. I mainly meant the wheel well was even missing, so that's a little more than just a busted blinker or light. I don't know what happened to her vehicle or when it happened, kinda why I also stated, " Way too many possibilities for me to make an informed guess of what really happened to TH." And I would expect LE to have had those answers as they were the ones who were SUPPOSED to be investigating. Great job they did in that respect. :banghead:

 

[hoshizora]

For those who are curious, here's another timeline with some extra tidbits (ST tried to sell the same make/model of gun SA has on 1/11/2006)

3/11/2006
In the evening a hunter reports suspicious activity on 147 close to Avery property. They see a green or dark truck parked on bridge close to the nearest state park. They see a man wading in the water [13]

https://soundcloud.com/satimeline/huntercall

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[shadowraiths]

This is another possibility. Accidental death that was covered up. It would certainly better explain why her hair/blood was found in the boot of the car, if she was being moved from one location than it does SA putting her in the boot to burn her on his property.

The main reason I'm leaning toward this, is it would explain why she wasn't reported missing by the roommate for 3 days. In fact, it was her family, not the roommate who reported her. Moreover, you have MH, RH, & SB all up in her business, listening to her voicemail, accessing her cell phone account. Then, RH & MH orchestrate the search of Avery's property, drawing up maps, and SB lends his camera to PS. And, within less than a half hour after she is allowed access to the property (thanks to the special arrangement with the LEOs), she finds the car. Yeah, I know, god showed her.

Then, you have the media swarming the so-called "crime scene." For example, remember the reporter, Emily Matesic, who claims she found out after the fact, that she was allegedly standing on some of Ms. Halbach's remains when interviewing SA? If this was a crime scene, why oh why were they letting people trample all over the evidence? That is, unless there really wasn't any?

Nonetheless, and regardless of "whodunnit" I cannot help but to believe the case was based and built upon the coerced conjecture of a mentally challenged 16 year old kid, as opposed to actually decent police work.

Which is, imho, a tragedy in and of itself.

 

[missy1974]

If her family or friends knew about the damage to her vehicle, that would be pretty important information and should have been put on the missing folders as it would make her vehicle stand out. IMO Also, her first appointment that day, he said her vehicle looked clean and new.

Jaiddie.... I think you are right about the theories, it's so hard to come up with a concrete theory because there are so many unknowns. I listened to a recent interview with Jerry Buting... who believes SA is innocent and even he said he doesn't have just 1 other suspect, he would read something, think ohhh that's who it was, then read something else and was swayed another way. So if someone that is that close to the case can be swayed, I can see why some of us are ;-)

 

[Sustained]

The main reason I'm leaning toward this, is it would explain why she wasn't reported missing by the roommate for 3 days. In fact, it was her family, not the roommate who reported her. Moreover, you have MH, RH, & SB all up in her business, listening to her voicemail, accessing her cell phone account. Then, RH & MH orchestrate the search of Avery's property, drawing up maps, and SB lends his camera to PS. And, within less than a half hour after she is allowed access to the property (thanks to the special arrangement with the LEOs), she finds the car. Yeah, I know, god showed her.

Respectfully snipped ...

I find it extremely odd that TH was not reported missing until 11/3, yet call records show a bunch of calls made to her phone on 11/1 and she lived in a house right next to her parents.

Also

1) IIRC, TH was Catholic and 11/1/06 would have been a holy day of obligation. Did she usually go to Mass with her mom & dad ?
2) She coached middle school volleyball at her parish's school with another woman. No practice Mon 10/31 thru 11/2 ? Volleyball is usually a winter sport ...

 

[missy1974]

Respectfully snipped ...

I find it extremely odd that TH was not reported missing until 11/3, yet call records show a bunch of calls made to her phone on 11/1 and she lived in a house right next to her parents.

That part gets me too Sustained.

 

[Wendy101]

There would be no "risk" at all if the person who killed her knew her schedule...
Who had access to her phone?
Whoever killed her waited till she made her last appointment... If she didn't make it there, then, alarms would have been sent off - but - she DID make it to her last appointment - so no alarm or call to her work place happens as no scheduled appointments were missed.
Did she go back to Avery's? I rather doubt it, since many have posted She thought SA was "creepy"...
So who would know her plan AFTER her last appointment? My guess. Her roommate or her ex.bf. They are the one who did not report her missing until 3 days later.

P.s do we really know if the bones were TH's bones?
Is the brother connected with the roommate and ex?