Forensic evidence

[Dru]

Extremely shallow, due to shock.



And in the state of mind they must have been in, they wouldn't know it if they knew it.

SuperDave, I respect your opinions very, very much--which is why I want to ask you the one question that still makes it very hard for me to accept the PDI-Toilet Rage theory.

According to this theory, PR suddenly and violently lashes out at JBR out of stress, irritation, annoyance or some similar emotion--and bashes her head with sufficient strength to dislodge a significant piece of her skull.

Panic stricken, she shakes and tugs at the unconscious child, causing bruising etc.

She screams for JR, who comes to her, assesses the situation, and the two of them decide that JBR is dead.

They further decide that they will have to cover up the crime, and start to do so.

Now--here's the hard part. Almost immediately, they decide to inflict a significant sexual wound on the--they think--dead body of their child!

Why almost immediately? The wound bled enough to leave a spot of blood in the second pair of underwear; further, forensic evidence suggests that blood was present on JBR's thighs and was cleaned up. There is no other wound on her legs, so the blood must have come from the vaginal wound. So the wound must have been inflicted before strangulation occurred, which according to something you wrote probably took place no later than one hour after the head blow.

But then, having done this horrific thing which could only be designed to make JBR's death look like a sex crime, the R's decide to make JBR's death look like a politically/personally motivated crime against JR, necessitating the writing of the ransom note.

Even if we say that they changed their minds again and decided to return to the 'sex crime' scenario, that doesn't explain two things: one, why they didn't change the RN, and two, why they didn't make at least some attempt to make the wine cellar crime scene look like a sex crime scene (e.g. removing the troublesome underwear entirely, staging the body to fit a pedophile scenario, etc.).

I honestly can't come up with any reason two shocked and panicked parents would very quickly decide that they had to inflict a sexual wound on their unconscious and apparently dead daughter. Can you help, SuperDave?

 

[Ames]

SuperDave, I respect your opinions very, very much--which is why I want to ask you the one question that still makes it very hard for me to accept the PDI-Toilet Rage theory.

According to this theory, PR suddenly and violently lashes out at JBR out of stress, irritation, annoyance or some similar emotion--and bashes her head with sufficient strength to dislodge a significant piece of her skull.

Panic stricken, she shakes and tugs at the unconscious child, causing bruising etc.

She screams for JR, who comes to her, assesses the situation, and the two of them decide that JBR is dead.

They further decide that they will have to cover up the crime, and start to do so.

Now--here's the hard part. Almost immediately, they decide to inflict a significant sexual wound on the--they think--dead body of their child!

Why almost immediately? The wound bled enough to leave a spot of blood in the second pair of underwear; further, forensic evidence suggests that blood was present on JBR's thighs and was cleaned up. There is no other wound on her legs, so the blood must have come from the vaginal wound. So the wound must have been inflicted before strangulation occurred, which according to something you wrote probably took place no later than one hour after the head blow.

But then, having done this horrific thing which could only be designed to make JBR's death look like a sex crime, the R's decide to make JBR's death look like a politically/personally motivated crime against JR, necessitating the writing of the ransom note.

Even if we say that they changed their minds again and decided to return to the 'sex crime' scenario, that doesn't explain two things: one, why they didn't change the RN, and two, why they didn't make at least some attempt to make the wine cellar crime scene look like a sex crime scene (e.g. removing the troublesome underwear entirely, staging the body to fit a pedophile scenario, etc.).

I honestly can't come up with any reason two shocked and panicked parents would very quickly decide that they had to inflict a sexual wound on their unconscious and apparently dead daughter. Can you help, SuperDave?

I can help....they have a great imagination...and they were trying to save their own butts. My guess is they thought of that sex crime scene scenario pretty doggone quickly. It doesn't take a whole lot of thought to come up with something like that....especially when you are doing everything in your power to stay OUT of prison. They had to come up with something believable...and as pretty as JB was, and the whole pageant thing and all....modeling..etc., the pedophile scenario was not so far fetched. EVERYBODY knows that pedophiles go to those pageants....I am sure that Patsy and John thought of THAT first, before they started to get nervous and started throwing every single person that they ever knew or came in contact with... "under the bus".

 

[Nuisanceposter]

But why? Why even throw that in? It wasn't part of the RN, and you'd think that if they wanted to paint the killer/kidnapper as a pedo who sexually violates little girls before killing them, then that would have made it to the RN in some way, shape, or form. I think they staged the sexual assault to try to confuse the evidence of prior sexual abuse (that could include douching) they knew may be found. It worked brilliantly.

 

[Ames]

But why? Why even throw that in? It wasn't part of the RN, and you'd think that if they wanted to paint the killer/kidnapper as a pedo who sexually violates little girls before killing them, then that would have made it to the RN in some way, shape, or form. I think they staged the sexual assault to try to confuse the evidence of prior sexual abuse (that could include douching) they knew may be found. It worked brilliantly.

Yep, could be....unless they wrote the rn BEFORE the staging, and didn't have time to go back and change it. You could be right though...they just wanted to confuse things....which they did....I have bald spots where I am pulling my hair out over this case. I am SOOOOO confused. Its almost like they thought of everything bad that they could do to her, to confuse the situation....and they did it. I don't see how they could sleep at night....

 

[JMO8778]

Yep, could be....unless they wrote the rn BEFORE the staging, and didn't have time to go back and change it.

I think JR told PR to gather the items he needed for the staging..she did,and she started on *her version of the RN,as JR told her to write one.(Later,he wrote his version,and like Patsy says they did in the liturgy...they merged the 2 into one).
I think they previously,**in a panic**,were going to put her outside somewhere..due to that line in the RN ..'you will also be denied her remains for proper burial'.But..for some reason,they changed their minds..maybe they couldnt go thru with it in the end.But...no time to write a new note,the old one must stand.I think that's why the note is so confusing..it refers to a prior plan.Also..I think the vag. wound was to cover past abuse AS WELL AS to stage an assault that supposedly happened after she'd been 'abducted' and found outside.
JMO.

 

[Ames]

I think JR told PR to gather the items he needed for the staging..she did,and she started on *her version of the RN,as JR told her to write one.(Later,he wrote his version,and like Patsy says they did in the liturgy...they merged the 2 into one).
I think they previously,**in a panic**,were going to put her outside somewhere..due to that line in the RN ..'you will also be denied her remains for proper burial'.But..for some reason,they changed their minds..maybe they couldnt go thru with it in the end.But...no time to write a new note,the old one must stand.I think that's why the note is so confusing..it refers to a prior plan.Also..I think the vag. wound was to cover past abuse AS WELL AS to stage an assault that supposedly happened after she'd been 'abducted' and found outside.
JMO.

I agree that they merged their two ransom notes into one. As far as them thinking that they would try to get rid of the body...maybe THATS the reason for the blanket. Maybe they were going to dump her somewhere, but didn't have the heart to just leave her there uncovered, and then after some thought, decided that they couldn't go through with it at all. I think that they moved her into the basement, instead of leaving her in her room, for TWO reasons....they didn't want Burke to see her, and if she had of been left in her room, then the fact that Burke or her parents "heard nothing", would NOT have made sense.

 

[Albert18]

I have had those exact same questions Dru.

I think the evidence suggests just one person was doing all that.

The staging of the crime scene that night was so bad somebody should have been taken straight to jail on the 26th.

What John started doing on the morning of the 26th was so brilliant nobody will ever go to jail for this crime.


Your comment about the injuries to JonBenet coming so quickly are indeed disturbing and hard to figure out. In a different thread I questioned why the autopsy didn't answer more questions. My guess is things may have happened differently then we think because the autopsy isn't giving us an accurate picture.

 

[DeeDee249]

I have had those exact same questions Dru.

I think the evidence suggests just one person was doing all that.

The staging of the crime scene that night was so bad somebody should have been taken straight to jail on the 26th.

What John started doing on the morning of the 26th was so brilliant nobody will ever go to jail for this crime.


Your comment about the injuries to JonBenet coming so quickly are indeed disturbing and hard to figure out. In a different thread I questioned why the autopsy didn't answer more questions. My guess is things may have happened differently then we think because the autopsy isn't giving us an accurate picture.

I am sure we don't know the full extent of the autopsy report. What we are reading is the edited transcription of what the coroner speaks into a recorder as he is completing the procedure, using technical terms. There would also be notes, and spoken observations that are not put into the final report. I believe there was some LE present during this procedure as well, and they also may have recordings and notes. Keep in mind that word came dowm from high places to "Treat these people as victims, not as suspects". And it wouldn't be the first time a coroner took "liberties" with a report. You can write it to show pretty much any outcome you want. For a fascinating look into this aspect of forensic science the book "Coroner" by Dr. Naguchi (forgive the spelling) who was the coroner in Los Angeles and performed many celebrity autopsies, including Marilyn Monroe. He took great liberties with his conclusions in her death.

 

[JMO8778]

I am sure we don't know the full extent of the autopsy report. What we are reading is the edited transcription of what the coroner speaks into a recorder as he is completing the procedure, using technical terms. There would also be notes, and spoken observations that are not put into the final report. I believe there was some LE present during this procedure as well, and they also may have recordings and notes. Keep in mind that word came dowm from high places to "Treat these people as victims, not as suspects". And it wouldn't be the first time a coroner took "liberties" with a report. You can write it to show pretty much any outcome you want. For a fascinating look into this aspect of forensic science the book "Coroner" by Dr. Naguchi (forgive the spelling) who was the coroner in Los Angeles and performed many celebrity autopsies, including Marilyn Monroe. He took great liberties with his conclusions in her death.

I think it can be done as well.I've always thought Andy Gibb died of a drug overdose and not 'natural causes',as was said.I think the family had enough money to hide the truth,as may have been done here with omitting a few things??

 

[Ames]

I think it can be done as well.I've always thought Andy Gibb died of a drug overdose and not 'natural causes',as was said.I think the family had enough money to hide the truth,as may have been done here with omitting a few things??

Now THERES a name that I haven't heard in FOREVER. I agree...he totally died of an overdose. I LOVED HIM!!!

 

[JMO8778]

I agree that they merged their two ransom notes into one. As far as them thinking that they would try to get rid of the body...maybe THATS the reason for the blanket. Maybe they were going to dump her somewhere, but didn't have the heart to just leave her there uncovered, and then after some thought, decided that they couldn't go through with it at all. I think that they moved her into the basement, instead of leaving her in her room, for TWO reasons....they didn't want Burke to see her, and if she had of been left in her room, then the fact that Burke or her parents "heard nothing", would NOT have made sense.

that all makes sense,and in thinking about the RN,I ran across this,it's the reason why I think JR helped w. the note..to point to JM and friends as the '2 gentlemen who don't particularly like him':
http://www.acandyrose.com/20060830BoylesGuestJeffMerrick.htm

I also recall JM saying that,bc of the note,and how it was written,it was hard to think that it was anything BUT an inside job(the ppl inside JR's house).

 

[Ames]

that all makes sense,and in thinking about the RN,I ran across this,it's the reason why I think JR helped w. the note..to point to JM and friends as the '2 gentlemen who don't particularly like him':
http://www.acandyrose.com/20060830BoylesGuestJeffMerrick.htm

I also recall JM saying that,bc of the note,and how it was written,it was hard to think that it was anything BUT an inside job(the ppl inside JR's house).

VERY interesting...thanks for posting this.

 

[JMO8778]

VERY interesting...thanks for posting this.

you're welcome,ain't it though???JR keeps bringing up JM's name and JM has good reason(enough to convince me) to believe the RN was an attempt to point to him.I can't help but think JR had some input into it..that's why it switched to JR's first name at the end,as well as the 'use that good southern common sense' line, and the $118,000 ransom amount(refers to AG,IMO).....to appear to be someone who knows JR well and is angry with him.(yes,I did read JR isn't really from the south originally).Nonetheless,I think he threw that in for good measure.
As far as the 'fat cat' line,JR himself mentioned 'Atlanta fat cats' later on.can someone help me w/ that?did Merrick know of them?
although I also think the term 'fat cat' could have just been JR referring to himself as a wealthy person.

 

[Ames]

you're welcome,ain't it though???JR keeps bringing up JM's name and JM has good reason(enough to convince me) to believe the RN was an attempt to point to him.I can't help but think JR had some input into it..that's why it switched to JR's first name at the end,as well as the 'use that good southern common sense' line, and the $118,000 ransom amount.....to appear to be someone who knows JR well and is angry with him.

Oh for sure...there is no doubt in my mind that John had some input the writing of that ransom note....and that he was trying to point the finger at JM.

 

[BBB167893]

Can you help, SuperDave?

That's what I'm here for.

According to this theory, PR suddenly and violently lashes out at JBR out of stress, irritation, annoyance or some similar emotion--and bashes her head with sufficient strength to dislodge a significant piece of her skull.

Panic stricken, she shakes and tugs at the unconscious child, causing bruising etc.

She screams for JR, who comes to her, assesses the situation, and the two of them decide that JBR is dead.

They further decide that they will have to cover up the crime, and start to do so.

That would be the jist of it, maybe.

Now--here's the hard part. Almost immediately, they decide to inflict a significant sexual wound on the--they think--dead body of their child!

Why almost immediately? The wound bled enough to leave a spot of blood in the second pair of underwear; further, forensic evidence suggests that blood was present on JBR's thighs and was cleaned up. There is no other wound on her legs, so the blood must have come from the vaginal wound. So the wound must have been inflicted before strangulation occurred, which according to something you wrote probably took place no later than one hour after the head blow.

Because I think there was a quickly discarded plan to dump her body.

But then, having done this horrific thing which could only be designed to make JBR's death look like a sex crime, the R's decide to make JBR's death look like a politically/personally motivated crime against JR, necessitating the writing of the ransom note.

Even if we say that they changed their minds again and decided to return to the 'sex crime' scenario, that doesn't explain two things: one, why they didn't change the RN, and two, why they didn't make at least some attempt to make the wine cellar crime scene look like a sex crime scene (e.g. removing the troublesome underwear entirely, staging the body to fit a pedophile scenario, etc.).
I honestly can't come up with any reason two shocked and panicked parents would very quickly decide that they had to inflict a sexual wound on their unconscious and apparently dead daughter.

Because that's what grabs people's emotions, Dru. That's what they were counting on. Let me ask you people: when you first heard about Danielle Van Dam, et al and how they died, what was the first thing that went through your minds? It was burning anger, wasn't it?

 

[rashomon]

There must be. I am sure after a severe trauma there is a stage before the heart actually stops pumping where the blood pressure drops enough to have petechiae occur, but not enough for severe hemmorhage.

Oh, I received an answer on that a while ago, which I put on the Crimelibray site but forgot to put here on WS too.
In March, I emailed Dr. Wright about it. A poster on another forum had alleged that JB must have died immediately after the head blow, for otherwise her blood would have 'organized'. But this poster obviously interpreted the term 'organization' wrongly, according to the info I got from Dr. Wright.

I didnt really expect to get a reply from him, for I thought he had other things to do than answering questions of a medical layperson who is not even a native speaker of English. But to my surprise, I got a reply back on the same day. His answers were short, but clear - he simply inserted them in blue color into my original letter:
[Dr. Wright is both a doctor of medicine (md) and a doctor of law (juris doctor - (jd), hence the 'mdjd' in his email address. I don't know why in his reply the 'jd' in his email address was left out]

Here is the letter together with Dr Wright's answers:

-----Original Message-----
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:10:34 +0100
Subject: RE:
From: "Dr Ronald K Wright" <rkw@rkwrightmd.com>
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxx(my email daddress)



From: xxxxxxxxx [mailto:xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 11:23 AM
To: rkw@rkwrightmdjd.com
Subject: [I forgot to insert a subject title]


Dear Dr. Wright,



I' m a poster on a internet forum (CourtTV's Crime Library) where the JonBenet Ramsey case is being vividly discussed. Part of the discussion is also this article where you are quoted:

Quote:
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/...ey/0716jon.htm
Pathologist: No doubt of JonBenet sex assault
Girl was hit on head before she was strangled, expert says
By Charlie Brennan
%%byline%%By Charlie Brennan
Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer


BOULDER -- JonBenet Ramsey was sexually assaulted, suffered a tremendous blow to the head and was strangled as much as an hour later, a respected forensic pathologist said Tuesday.

Dr. Ronald Wright, director of the forensic pathology department at the University of Miami School of Medicine, reviewed JonBenet's autopsy report Tuesday at the request of the Rocky Mountain News.

''She's been sexually assaulted,'' said Wright, who served as the medical examiner in Broward County, Fla., 13 years.

"She's had vaginal penetration.''

Wright -- who has done consulting for the FBI and worked on the Elvis Presley autopsy -- joined a growing chorus of out-of-town experts who see sexual assault as part of the unsolved Christmas night murder.

The experts reviewed the autopsy report released Monday by a judge's order.

"I think there's some kind of sexual assault,'' said Dr. Robert Kirschner, formerly deputy chief medical examiner in Cook County, Ill. He is now a clinical associate in department of pathology and pediatrics at the University of Chicago.

"There is evidence of acute injury'' in the vaginal area, Kirschner said.

Wright, whose best-known case as Broward Medical Examiner was the unsolved abduction and murder of 6-year-old Adam Walsh in Hollywood, Fla., was surprised to hear some experts are uncertain whether Boulder's slain beauty princess was sexually assaulted.

"Somebody's injured her vagina,'' said Wright. "And she's tied up. Doesn't that make it involuntary sexual battery?''

Wright said the presence of a small amount of food in JonBenet's small intestine -- possibly pineapple fragments -- indicates she died well after her final meal, most likely late at night or early in the morning.

The blow to her head -- which Wright is convinced was not from a golf club but more likely a blunt object such as a baseball bat or heavy flashlight -- came first, Wright said.

"She was whopped on the head a long time before she was strangled,'' said Wright. "That might or might not have rendered her unconscious. But this is not anything that kills her right away.''

He said 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the skull fracture and the strangulation.

The reason he's so sure, said Wright, is that details revealed about the brain injury, "the swelling, the bleeding here and there, they take a while to happen.''

And that wouldn't have happened, he said, if she was already dead.
"I think, probably, the head injury came first, because the strangulation resulted in petechial (pinpoint) hemorrhages'' in areas such as the eyelids, Kirschner said.

"I think she died when she was strangled. The cerebral hemorrhaging and bruising of the brain did occur first. But she was still alive when strangled.''
Wright noted that the presence of "birefringent (shiny) foreign material'' in JonBenet's vaginal tract could be consistent with someone penetrating her while wearing rubber gloves.

That, combined with prior disclosures that someone appeared to wipe down the body, is inconsistent with a typical child sex offender.

"It's not the typical pattern of somebody who decides they like having sex with young girls,'' said Wright.

"This looks like something different. If you're into having sex with kids, it's usually not so subtle.''

Wright was particularly intrigued by the girl's empty bladder. Evacuation of the bladder often occurs at the time of death, he said, but it's usually only partial.

Complete emptying of the bladder, he said, would be consistent with her having done so intentionally while awake, near the time of the crime, or a bed-wetting.July 16, 1997

It is especailly the bolded section in the article which caused a lot of discussion.

For the autopsy report mentions fresh scalp hemmorrhage with no evidence of organization, and according to a poster who claims to have medical knowledge, this would imply that JonBenet died immediately or very shortly after the head blow, since her blood obviously did not time to organize itself (=hemostasis).



If you would have the kindness to answer these questions, you would help us a lot to clear things up in our discussion.



1) Did the article quote you correctly?[Dr Ronald K Wright] Yes

2) Can it happen that persons who suffered a brain injury (leaving aside those having blod clotting disorders) and who did not die right away but stayed alive for quite some time after that injury, still show 'non-organized' blood in sections of their brain at the autopsy? [Dr Ronald K Wright] Yes, Organization requires days



3) Could there exist a stage where a severely injured person is already so near death after sustaining a brain injury that the blod-clotting mechanism can't kick into gear anymore because the whole system is already too weakend for this to take place? [Dr Ronald K Wright] Not that I know of



Thanks again in advance if you should take the time to reply.



Best regards,



xxxxxxxxxx

 

[Albert18]

"Organization requires days"

Isn't that interesting.

I wonder if the police got this type of guidance from Dr. Meyer.

 

[Solace]

I have had those exact same questions Dru.

I think the evidence suggests just one person was doing all that.

The staging of the crime scene that night was so bad somebody should have been taken straight to jail on the 26th.

What John started doing on the morning of the 26th was so brilliant nobody will ever go to jail for this crime.


Your comment about the injuries to JonBenet coming so quickly are indeed disturbing and hard to figure out. In a different thread I questioned why the autopsy didn't answer more questions. My guess is things may have happened differently then we think because the autopsy isn't giving us an accurate picture.

Albert, what did John do that was brilliant?

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

...Because he kept phoning to get attention from PR during the Grand Jury according to "The Patricia Letters" which I'm sure are still at ACandyRose...

Not that it makes a whole lot of difference here, but I firmly believe the "Patricia Letters" were written by John Mark Karr. Word for word, it is his writing...

 

[Toltec]

Not that it makes a whole lot of difference here, but I firmly believe the "Patricia Letters" were written by John Mark Karr. Word for word, it is his writing...

I was going through the Patricia letters and I am totally convinced that SkankySue wrote them.