Forensic evidence

[JMO8778]

I have said this before, but if my child was found murdered, in my home...the last freakin thing that I would be thinking about is my fur coat. I would be so numb....I wouldn't have needed a coat.

right on,me too.fresh makeup on,fur coat..was she ready in case she thought there might be photographers out front?

 

[Ames]

right on,me too.fresh makeup on,fur coat..was she ready in case she thought there might be photographers out front?[/quote]

Yeah, really. She had to look nice and rich just in case there was someone with a camera outside the house. In that first tv interview that she gave, she had a TON...and I mean a TON of makeup on. Its the first thing that I noticed...like she was wearing a mask. Funny how she was so "distraught"...but, not enough so, to keep her from applying her two tons of makeup and mascara. She had to keep that Jackie Kennedy thing going...although, I never saw Jackie with a ton of makeup on. Jackie ALWAYS looked nice for the camera. Patsy was trying to live up to that...I believe that deep down, Patsy thought that SHE, herself....was a Kennedy.

 

[Albert18]

Yes, I think there was plenty of time for one person to complete all the tasks that night.

The reason I hesitate to involve John too early is because I don't think enough work was done if you have two people working for four or five hours. That is a total of 8 to 10 work hours. With that much time why didn't they plan for a better intruder entrance/exit? The intruder is the entire foundation of their staging. If John has been working on this since about midnight shouldn't there have been a better entry/exit point for the intruder?

I guess what I am saying is this, if John had been up since midnight working then I think he tells the police this, "After Patsy showed me the ransom note, I checked the house and found this door (unlocked/slightly ajar). Especially if they are trying to plant the idea the person might have a key.

On the other hand, why wouldn't Patsy wake John up? I don't see her wanting to endure this misery alone.

As far as Patsy being absent from bed and John getting up to check on her, I can tell you from personal experience that men learn real fast that women are constantly up roaming the house at night. It's tough, but you learn to sleep through it.

 

[JMO8778]

right on,me too.fresh makeup on,fur coat..was she ready in case she thought there might be photographers out front?[/quote]

Yeah, really. She had to look nice and rich just in case there was someone with a camera outside the house. In that first tv interview that she gave, she had a TON...and I mean a TON of makeup on. Its the first thing that I noticed...like she was wearing a mask. Funny how she was so "distraught"...but, not enough so, to keep her from applying her two tons of makeup and mascara. She had to keep that Jackie Kennedy thing going...although, I never saw Jackie with a ton of makeup on. Jackie ALWAYS looked nice for the camera. Patsy was trying to live up to that...I believe that deep down, Patsy thought that SHE, herself....was a Kennedy.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one !
And remember how she dressed and knelt at the coffin,even mentioning JK by name in DOI..

 

[Dru]

Yes, I think there was plenty of time for one person to complete all the tasks that night.

The reason I hesitate to involve John too early is because I don't think enough work was done if you have two people working for four or five hours. That is a total of 8 to 10 work hours. With that much time why didn't they plan for a better intruder entrance/exit? The intruder is the entire foundation of their staging. If John has been working on this since about midnight shouldn't there have been a better entry/exit point for the intruder?

I guess what I am saying is this, if John had been up since midnight working then I think he tells the police this, "After Patsy showed me the ransom note, I checked the house and found this door (unlocked/slightly ajar). Especially if they are trying to plant the idea the person might have a key.

On the other hand, why wouldn't Patsy wake John up? I don't see her wanting to endure this misery alone.

As far as Patsy being absent from bed and John getting up to check on her, I can tell you from personal experience that men learn real fast that women are constantly up roaming the house at night. It's tough, but you learn to sleep through it.

Albert18, outside of corporations no one I know of thinks that two people each working four to five hours equals eight to ten hours of work. No offense, but there's going to be redundancy, and there's also going to be some discussion of what needs to be done.

As for that question, why didn't JR see to it that an obvious point of entry was left, I think he's too smart for that.

One of the neighbors noticed that the outside light wasn't on, after all. Another saw lights on in the house around midnight. JR would have to weigh the possibility that a neighbor might notice a door left open, and call the police!

You couldn't leave a door to the outside just slightly, unobtrusively ajar in the winter in Boulder; I'd be willing to bet that there was at least some wind blowing that night, and that the door would either have blown open or blown shut.

Even if you accept both of those risks, you have the biggest risk of all: if the police know the entry point of the alleged intruder, they will immediately secure this spot and begin combing it for forensic evidence--and there isn't any!!

JR knows this. Darlie Routier didn't. Guess which one is sitting on Death Row? And guess which crime happened first (by a little over six months)?

 

[Eagle1]

Yes, if whoever did the staging wanted police to think there was only one point of entry, they should have planted some forensic evidence of such. By not having any certain one, are they possibly saying there were quite a few other people there, and that there were several entry points?

The only fibers were from those who lived there, so maybe it takes a while(?) for any forensic evidence to accumulate, except for the shoe prints in the bsmt and like that? PR's jacket was new, but PW also had one, just like it, and possibly someone also had a shirt like JR's, right?

My main point I'd like to make, Judging by the apparent coverup of the dozen or more OTHER children on McSanta's small celtic harp, I'd guess, ( not accusing him or anyone in particular) there was some kind of group involved, pretty powerful. Not necessarily a sex ring.

I wouldn't know what kind of possible group. Maybe something we haven't even heard about, so secretive.

(I agree that their leaving JonBenet in the house seems pretty awful, and possibly is an indication they were involved, but certainly not the only ones. Whatever others were involved, they'd abandoned JonBenet, and her parents, too.)

And that its power might explain the BPD "bungling" better than it just being Christmas. If there were some powerful underground, they may have chosen the Christmas holidays to explain the bungling, of course.

Neither can we say everyone was thoroughly investigated. All we have is peoples' word for that. From the start, internet forums have emphasized the "police bungling" of the investigations. If this is getting too long and anyone wants to quote, remember, you can shorten the quote to just include the main things you want to address. I'd hate to see this whole thing again myself.

 

[DeeDee249]

Veronica, your posts hit home for me. I had a friend whose 8-year-old daughter was raped and strangled by the neighborhood "odd guy". He'd seemed harmless, just a little weird...helped the mom change a flat tire the day before. (while the little girl looked on) so that's how he "befriended" her.
After it was over (and he had been convicted) she still hadn't cleaned out her little girl's hamper. The clothes still smelled like her and she couldn't bear to part with them.
NO innocent parent leaves their dead child's body in the home alone.
And remember they sent Aunt P to retrieve (i.e.confiscate evidence) from the home. Any other mother would have done just as you said- combed the house for any clue, taken precious mementos, clothes, any little thing. Of course, daddy DID get his golf clubs. After all, they had been generously given access to an active crime scene. But then it really wasn't active at all, was it?
Torch the home? You bet! Get rid of every last trace of evidence. I often wish forensic investigators could get back into that house now. With today's methods, maybe a blood splatter or other evidence would emerge from the walls/floors...anything. I know that subsequent owners walled up that room, took out the door. But a 2 foot thick steel wall couldn't keep out the evil in that room.
I wonder sometimes if JBR looks down on her family now with pity, anger, or if she just laughs from heaven at the ridiculousness of it all.

 

[Eagle1]

Not that it makes a whole lot of difference here, but I firmly believe the "Patricia Letters" were written by John Mark Karr. Word for word, it is his writing...

This is from P. 14 and we're now on 17, but I just received email notification, and glad I did, very interesting thought. Could you develop it a little more?

Before any snap judgement RDIs jump on me with all four feet, I must remind everyone I've said many times the R's very well may have been involved, some kind of secretive group powerful enough to cause police "bungling" and the 12-15 OTHER DEAD KIDS on McSanta's celtic harp not to be investigated, the McReynolds' daughter's case records allgedly missing, etc. Those are very real clues, not to be disregardd. Someone at another forum found that at least one had been murdered, but didn't find any names. Why the apparent possible coverup?

Obviously Karr could have been involved, Helgoth and his friend, etc., no telling how many. I seem to remember a brown bear, not the white pageant bear, was found the morning after, on JonBenet's other twin bed, which was rather shabby and pretty well matched a pic of Karr's childhood one. Police bungling has been a constant watch word for a decade. We only have peoples' word for it that they thoroughly investigated anyone or anything. That bear just might prove Karr was in Boulder. Is it in BPD custody? Anyone know?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I agree, DeeDee. According to Steve Thomas, by June of 1997, some six months after the murder, the Ramsey hellhole was being remodeled - paint, new carpet, the works. Why would innocent parents want to remove anything that was there the night their daughter was killed that could possibly help them solve the crime? They wouldn't...but guilty parents trying to remove evidence would.

 

[DeeDee249]

I agree, DeeDee. According to Steve Thomas, by June of 1997, some six months after the murder, the Ramsey hellhole was being remodeled - paint, new carpet, the works. Why would innocent parents want to remove anything that was there the night their daughter was killed that could possibly help them solve the crime? They wouldn't...but guilty parents trying to remove evidence would.

I had read that shortly after the Rs moved back to Atlanta, a group of "R friends" bought the house. I don't know how long they kept it before re-selling it, but they were the ones who pulled up the carpet (how suspicious is that?) and painted...gotta cover those blood droplets/fingerprints/Godknowswhat. I don't know who walled up the wine celler, them or the subsequent owners. That house has changed hands a few times since Hell Night.

 

[Solace]

I agree, DeeDee. According to Steve Thomas, by June of 1997, some six months after the murder, the Ramsey hellhole was being remodeled - paint, new carpet, the works. Why would innocent parents want to remove anything that was there the night their daughter was killed that could possibly help them solve the crime? They wouldn't...but guilty parents trying to remove evidence would.

NP, who was remodeling it. Had it been sold, or was it the Ramseys?

 

[Eagle1]

No matter who bought the house, they probably would have heard of what happened there. I for one wouldn't even want to be in it, so it's not too surprising they'd completely remodel it.

Or, a person could say "Aha, shows more than the family were involved." Two different ways of looking at it. I hadn't heard the wine cellar had been closed off. But it's not really surprising, is it?

 

[1SweetNov]

Solace,

No she was carried in asleep, according to the parents.

Burke not only knows if JonBenet walked into the house, but more or less what transpired afterwards, even if he does not know all the details.

His silence tells you about the degree of collusion exisiting between all three surviving residents of the Ramsey household.

This is why the pineapple is no bugaboo but a very important clue in confirming that JonBenet was alive and walking about long after they arrived back, the time taken to snack and digest the pineapple tells you this.

So we know beyond doubt that the version of events according to the three Ramsey's is inconsistent with the forensic evidence!


.

The bowl, glass, tea bag play a very important role, IMO, in one nagging scenario I've had. I don't think PR would rage over a toilet issue, but, definitely would rage over a bratty child not doing what she was told, especially considering PR's physical state that night. What if she thought they were tucked in for the night, maybe after telling them NO to snacking before bed. She heads to pack, the kids sneak off to the kitchen anyway, maybe in the dark, and fix the tea, pineapple (maybe the bowl was already there and was used again). PR decides to wake JB to go potty before retiring herself, only to find she is not in bed. PR finds them in the kitchen, yells to get off to bed, Burke complies lickitysplit, but JB...no, she argues and stands defient. PR losses it, drags her child up the stairs to her room by her collar, maybe there is a struggle causing further tightening and dragging by the collar, at some point there is the hit over the head with the flashlight. If it was dark in the kitchen, PR could have forgotten all about the kitchen table, JR may not have known about it and may have done the sexual staging to hide his abuse which may not have been known by PR. Is this a valid possibility or am I missing something??

 

[coloradokares]

The bowl, glass, tea bag play a very important role, IMO, in one nagging scenario I've had. I don't think PR would rage over a toilet issue, but, definitely would rage over a bratty child not doing what she was told, especially considering PR's physical state that night. What if she thought they were tucked in for the night, maybe after telling them NO to snacking before bed. She heads to pack, the kids sneak off to the kitchen anyway, maybe in the dark, and fix the tea, pineapple (maybe the bowl was already there and was used again). PR decides to wake JB to go potty before retiring herself, only to find she is not in bed. PR finds them in the kitchen, yells to get off to bed, Burke complies lickitysplit, but JB...no, she argues and stands defient. PR losses it, drags her child up the stairs to her room by her collar, maybe there is a struggle causing further tightening and dragging by the collar, at some point there is the hit over the head with the flashlight. If it was dark in the kitchen, PR could have forgotten all about the kitchen table, JR may not have known about it and may have done the sexual staging to hide his abuse which may not have been known by PR. Is this a valid possibility or am I missing something??

Dont so quickly dismiss the potty rage scenario. It surfaced and resurfaced in the investigation as an issue. Everyone it seems was aware of these issues. The housekeeper and friends.

 

[Solace]

The bowl, glass, tea bag play a very important role, IMO, in one nagging scenario I've had. I don't think PR would rage over a toilet issue, but, definitely would rage over a bratty child not doing what she was told, especially considering PR's physical state that night. What if she thought they were tucked in for the night, maybe after telling them NO to snacking before bed. She heads to pack, the kids sneak off to the kitchen anyway, maybe in the dark, and fix the tea, pineapple (maybe the bowl was already there and was used again). PR decides to wake JB to go potty before retiring herself, only to find she is not in bed. PR finds them in the kitchen, yells to get off to bed, Burke complies lickitysplit, but JB...no, she argues and stands defient. PR losses it, drags her child up the stairs to her room by her collar, maybe there is a struggle causing further tightening and dragging by the collar, at some point there is the hit over the head with the flashlight. If it was dark in the kitchen, PR could have forgotten all about the kitchen table, JR may not have known about it and may have done the sexual staging to hide his abuse which may not have been known by PR. Is this a valid possibility or am I missing something??

That is not bad, but I don't think so; because Burke would be around and would have heard more. I think he is truthful when he says he heard creaking and voices during the night. But I do not think he heard Patsy kill JonBenet. I really think he just does not know. He may subconsciously but not consciiously.

 

[Solace]

The bowl, glass, tea bag play a very important role, IMO, in one nagging scenario I've had. I don't think PR would rage over a toilet issue, but, definitely would rage over a bratty child not doing what she was told, especially considering PR's physical state that night. What if she thought they were tucked in for the night, maybe after telling them NO to snacking before bed. She heads to pack, the kids sneak off to the kitchen anyway, maybe in the dark, and fix the tea, pineapple (maybe the bowl was already there and was used again). PR decides to wake JB to go potty before retiring herself, only to find she is not in bed. PR finds them in the kitchen, yells to get off to bed, Burke complies lickitysplit, but JB...no, she argues and stands defient. PR losses it, drags her child up the stairs to her room by her collar, maybe there is a struggle causing further tightening and dragging by the collar, at some point there is the hit over the head with the flashlight. If it was dark in the kitchen, PR could have forgotten all about the kitchen table, JR may not have known about it and may have done the sexual staging to hide his abuse which may not have been known by PR. Is this a valid possibility or am I missing something??

That is not bad actually and if she were dragging her up the stairs she would have gotten the decoration in her hair. HOWEVER, I do not think it happened that way. Because JonBenet would have been screaming and John would have heard it. I think this murder happened very quickly, in the blink of an eye, she was on her way to dying. If she were dragging JonBenet up the stairs, Burke would have heard it and John would have. This happened when no one was around. She slammed her into something and it was basically over. But it was a good theory, I just dont' think it happened that way. I think Patsy would have been much more careful if John were there or Burke.

 

[Toltec]

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one !
And remember how she dressed and knelt at the coffin,even mentioning JK by name in DOI..

Now that's nauseating! Thinking she could pass herself off as another Jackie Kennedy! Jackie was born into privelege, was brought up with impecable manners and grace. Jackie loved everything French and so did Patsy. I remember Patsy wanting to name JonBenet "Caroline". If JAR didn't already have Johns name, Burke would have been named "John". John-John and Caroline Ramsey...

This is what Patsy writes in DOI...

At that moment a picture of Jackie Kennedy abruptly flashed across my mind. I remembered seeing her wearing a black veil, walking hand in hand with her two children to JFK's grave site. Now I could see why people wore veils at such times: the filmy material surrounds you like a cocoon, overshadowing your face and closing out the world.

HUH??? Listen up Patsy....Jackie Kennedy wore that "black veil" because she was ummmm CATHOLIC!

 

[Solace]

Now that's nauseating! Thinking she could pass herself off as another Jackie Kennedy! Jackie was born into privelege, was brought up with impecable manners and grace. Jackie loved everything French and so did Patsy. I remember Patsy wanting to name JonBenet "Caroline". If JAR didn't already have Johns name, Burke would have been named "John". John-John and Caroline Ramsey...

This is what Patsy writes in DOI...

At that moment a picture of Jackie Kennedy abruptly flashed across my mind. I remembered seeing her wearing a black veil, walking hand in hand with her two children to JFK's grave site. Now I could see why people wore veils at such times: the filmy material surrounds you like a cocoon, overshadowing your face and closing out the world.

HUH??? Listen up Patsy....Jackie Kennedy wore that "black veil" because she was ummmm CATHOLIC!

The woman was such a dramatist. Truly nauseating reading that.

 

[Albert18]

As for that question, why didn't JR see to it that an obvious point of entry was left, I think he's too smart for that.

One of the neighbors noticed that the outside light wasn't on, after all. Another saw lights on in the house around midnight. JR would have to weigh the possibility that a neighbor might notice a door left open, and call the police!

You couldn't leave a door to the outside just slightly, unobtrusively ajar in the winter in Boulder; I'd be willing to bet that there was at least some wind blowing that night, and that the door would either have blown open or blown shut.

Even if you accept both of those risks, you have the biggest risk of all: if the police know the entry point of the alleged intruder, they will immediately secure this spot and begin combing it for forensic evidence--and there isn't any!!

But the door wouldn't have actually been open or ajar or unlocked. Nobody could have proven otherwise if John had said he found a door unlocked or not completely latched.

They also don't have to worry about them checking for evidence at that door because there would be none. Just like there is no intruder evidence in JonBenet's room, the kitchen, the basement, or on her body. They never staged the evidence of an intruder, they staged the acts that they thought an intruder would do. Why would an intruder climb out a basement window when he could just walk out one of the doors. Why wasn't that staged?

 

[JMO8778]

Veronica, your posts hit home for me. I had a friend whose 8-year-old daughter was raped and strangled by the neighborhood "odd guy". He'd seemed harmless, just a little weird...helped the mom change a flat tire the day before. (while the little girl looked on) so that's how he "befriended" her.
After it was over (and he had been convicted) she still hadn't cleaned out her little girl's hamper. The clothes still smelled like her and she couldn't bear to part with them.
NO innocent parent leaves their dead child's body in the home alone.
And remember they sent Aunt P to retrieve (i.e.confiscate evidence) from the home. Any other mother would have done just as you said- combed the house for any clue, taken precious mementos, clothes, any little thing. Of course, daddy DID get his golf clubs. After all, they had been generously given access to an active crime scene. But then it really wasn't active at all, was it?

right on,all of it.

Torch the home? You bet! Get rid of every last trace of evidence. I often wish forensic investigators could get back into that house now. With today's methods, maybe a blood splatter or other evidence would emerge from the walls/floors...anything. I know that subsequent owners walled up that room, took out the door. But a 2 foot thick steel wall couldn't keep out the evil in that room.

not just that,the R's painted and redid the entire house b/f it was sold..I bet they repainted every wall and replaced every last piece of carpeting so no evidence would be left.

I wonder sometimes if JBR looks down on her family now with pity, anger, or if she just laughs from heaven at the ridiculousness of it all.

My guess is she views them with a very heavy heart and much,much sadness...she probably understands now that she was being used and lived thru by her mom,aunt and gmom w the pageants,in addition to being killed by either her mom or dad or both.And not only that..they betrayed her,to this very day.I think she feels betrayed by her Aunt Pam(whom I think knows the truth and helped cover it up),Burke(for lying for JR and PR),JR jr (who cited the killer should be forgiven),the city of Boulder,all the lawyers involved,and the entire justice system in general,as well as anyone else who might know the truth but refuses to talk.And even all the online posters who refuse to look at the evidence objectively,and /or whom refuse to admit they're wrong(or have something to gain from it).
I think her true heroes in this case are (in no particular order,as they're all heroes,but if I had to pick one,it would be ST) #1-Steve Thomas,#2-Stewart Long,for having the guts to call ST and tell him what JR said,#3-the White's,and #4-Santa Bill,for having to endure all the accusations while being sick at the same time,and #5-all of us online who refuse to give up and let the case go away,and whom refuse to let JB's memory and life be forgotten.
If there's anyone I left out please post..thx.