Forensic evidence

I'm Catholic, but I don't recall anything about wearing the veil at funerals. At that time, all women needed to cover their heads (with either a hat, scarf, or veil ) in church, but nowadays that isn't done.
I remember PR saying she was choosing among clothes that had been sent by a local shop (Hmmm- why did she need to do this when Pam supposedly went to the house for the purpose of getting them clothes for the funeral) and the picture of Jackie Kennedy popped into her mind. So glad she found it in her to be fashion concious at such a horrible time. I'd be so dazed I'd show up in my bathrobe if it was MY child's funeral...
PR fancied herself and her husband a future Jack and Jackie--right down to the pathetic run for public office.

Old school...some women still wear black veils. President Bush's first visit with the Pope, Laura Bush wore a black veil out of respect. Same thing for the Pope's funeral.

Patsy emulated Jackie Kennedy...right down to the kneeling of the coffin. Patsy would have been almost 7. But the Kennedy funeral has been played over and over.

Has anyone been to JFK's gravesite? Right where you enter Arlington National Cemetary, there is a sort of covered courtyard that has life-sized murals of Jackie at JFK's funeral. There is a haunting picture of her wearing the black veil. I wanted to cry at that point.

What I was getting at is that the Kennedy's were as close to Royalty as America could get. Camelot....

Patsy was delusional in that she thought she was the second coming of Jackie....even calling Larry King and calling JonBenet America's Princess.
 
Ames,

So its hearsay evidence at best and street gossip at worst, not really a sound foundation for the basis of a theory to explain the death of a 6-year old child.

Okay.
 
As fond as I am of JonBenet, I don't really think calling a child who became infamous for being put through those questionable child beauty pageants and murdered in her own home "America's Princess" is really all that appropriate.
 
Ames,

So its hearsay evidence at best and street gossip at worst, not really a sound foundation for the basis of a theory to explain the death of a 6-year old child.

What is your solid ROCK solid basis? Also street gossip usuallly does not get reported on the ABC news by high paid professional gossipers !!!! Id be appreciative of how you attempt to say I furnish street gossip at best. Thank YOU If we were not there as eye witnesses we have speculaton and theory to be forensically proven at best. But that is how cases get solved!!
 
I don't want to get too esoteric here, but depending on religious beliefs (or lack thereof), there is danger of imagining a still-6-year-old JBR on "the other side", missing her family. She is not. She is the pure energy of a good soul, evolved as any adult would be. She is with like pure energies. And I would bet not sorry to leave this miserable plane of existance for a higher level. She knows what happened and sees the lessons she learned and tghe lessons those she left behind must still go through. And I would almost certainly be sure that her mother has gone to a very different place. I don't believe in hell per se, but there are lower levels of existance where souls who really screwed up down here need to stay awhile till they come to the realization, all on thier own, why they are there and what they need to do should they choose to return here again. This world, for all it's beauty and wonder, is the real hell, and happy are the souls who live here with love and leave it a better place for their time here.

Well that is one theory. There are also others you have FAITH she is estoteric energy!?!? That is what you believe.
 
Ames , I gave you the reporters name Keep it between us as agreed. Its of no use to share it with any one who thniks Id waste my time weeks after a near fatal stroke to spread street gossip. I assure you I am of better character that that!!
 
Ames , I gave you the reporters name Keep it between us as agreed. Its of no use to share it with any one who thniks Id waste my time weeks after a near fatal stroke to spread street gossip. I assure you I am of better character that that!!

CK..you have my word...I will not give out the reporters name. One reason is that I cannot remember it...LOL I am three months pregnant and the baby is sucking out my brain cells. BUT..even if I did remember it, I would never betray your trust....I would never tell a soul...I promise.
 
Well that is one theory. There are also others you have FAITH she is estoteric energy!?!? That is what you believe.

Yes, I agree Colorado.

DeeDee, I agree with some of your ideas and respectfully disagree with other ideas as stated. I think it is a very personal subject and there are no right or wrong ideas.
 
CK..you have my word...I will not give out the reporters name. One reason is that I cannot remember it...LOL I am three months pregnant and the baby is sucking out my brain cells. BUT..even if I did remember it, I would never betray your trust....I would never tell a soul...I promise.

Colorado, don't ya just love this girl. LOL:D :D :D
 
What is your solid ROCK solid basis? Also street gossip usuallly does not get reported on the ABC news by high paid professional gossipers !!!! Id be appreciative of how you attempt to say I furnish street gossip at best. Thank YOU If we were not there as eye witnesses we have speculaton and theory to be forensically proven at best. But that is how cases get solved!!

coloradokares,
I never said you furnish street gossip at best, I posted: So its hearsay evidence at best.

Steve Thomas despite mentioning a corporal punishment theory in the passing in his book, he does not refer to any external witness.

Most news these days is precisely gossip and chatter, he said, she said, she said he is dating her, etc etc, any compotent journalist will also agree its of the King of France had an accident variety. e.g. it cannot be verified by the reader or viewer.

In a court of law your assertion regarding what you have been told, may not even be admitted as evidence, its hearsay evidence.

Your theory, as an explanation of JonBenet's injuries is interesting and viable but is one of many competing to explain similarly, but it does not explain away any prior sexual abuse, nor the sexual assault at the time of her death.

That is if you are correct, your theory regarding corporal cleaning may have had no impact at all on JonBenet's death, and alike her lax toilet hygiene, pageant discipline, dance routines, video viewing etc may simply be incidental, and another example of the dysfunctional Ramsey family lifestyle?


.
 
Ames,

So its hearsay evidence at best and street gossip at worst, not really a sound foundation for the basis of a theory to explain the death of a 6-year old child.

Well let me just add a thing or two here. This may be true that it is hearsay. And it is no basis for a court case. But we do not have a court case here. So we are all summizing and putting out theories. Colorado has a theory based on her information from a reporter in Colorado. It is a little bit better than street gossip as you put it so eloquently. Also, in the Schiller book and I believe Thomas' book, it is reported that Patsy told a friend that she was very concerned about the rashes since JB's underwear were always damp. So if Lawrence Schiller can get a book published and in it offer "street gossip", I imagine we can cut Colorado some slack on that one also. Or is it just okay because he has his name on the spine of the book?


Also, Linda Hoffman Paugh said she heard JB crying and Patsy yelling at her in the bathroom almost daily. I think it is reasonable to assume that since that took place in a bathroom and it was between JB and her mother that it probably had to do with hygiene. Some might not believe her, I choose to believe it.

So to be fair, Colorado has a very good source and it does give all of us some insight into some information that we may otherwise have never have heard of and I am very grateful for that information. It is a whole lot more substantial than say the posts that Eagle has been offering -(I apologize Eagle, but it is true). Considering that we are left with very little and more than likely two guilty parties who are free, we are all doing the best we can to solve this case.

And as far as your theory goes, it is beyond out there. Again, the FBI is never going to overlook a body of a child who is dead in a house and JOHN RAMSEY WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT. But you are entitled to that opinion. Just as Colorado is entitled to share what she has heard.
 
I don't want to get too esoteric here, but depending on religious beliefs (or lack thereof), there is danger of imagining a still-6-year-old JBR on "the other side", missing her family. She is not. She is the pure energy of a good soul, evolved as any adult would be. She is with like pure energies. And I would bet not sorry to leave this miserable plane of existance for a higher level. She knows what happened and sees the lessons she learned and tghe lessons those she left behind must still go through. And I would almost certainly be sure that her mother has gone to a very different place. I don't believe in hell per se, but there are lower levels of existance where souls who really screwed up down here need to stay awhile till they come to the realization, all on thier own, why they are there and what they need to do should they choose to return here again. This world, for all it's beauty and wonder, is the real hell, and happy are the souls who live here with love and leave it a better place for their time here.

Beautifully stated, DeeDee, and very much explains my beliefs, too.
 
coloradokares,
I never said you furnish street gossip at best, I posted: So its hearsay evidence at best.

Steve Thomas despite mentioning a corporal punishment theory in the passing in his book, he does not refer to any external witness.

Most news these days is precisely gossip and chatter, he said, she said, she said he is dating her, etc etc, any compotent journalist will also agree its of the King of France had an accident variety. e.g. it cannot be verified by the reader or viewer.

In a court of law your assertion regarding what you have been told, may not even be admitted as evidence, its hearsay evidence.

Your theory, as an explanation of JonBenet's injuries is interesting and viable but is one of many competing to explain similarly, but it does not explain away any prior sexual abuse, nor the sexual assault at the time of her death.

That is if you are correct, your theory regarding corporal cleaning may have had no impact at all on JonBenet's death, and alike her lax toilet hygiene, pageant discipline, dance routines, video viewing etc may simply be incidental, and another example of the dysfunctional Ramsey family lifestyle?


.

You said that it was street gossip at WORST....not best. Which in my opinion is calling what CK says street gossip...but, thats just my opinion.
Below is your post...and I quote...

"Ames,

So its hearsay evidence at best and street gossip at worst, not really a sound foundation for the basis of a theory to explain the death of a 6-year old child."
 
Yes, I agree Colorado.

DeeDee, I agree with some of your ideas and respectfully disagree with other ideas as stated. I think it is a very personal subject and there are no right or wrong ideas.

Of course. We ALL have our own belief system, none better than the other. That's what makes the world go 'round. We all know what feels right in our hearts.
We keep what feels right and leave the rest. We evolve. My ideas are certainly not a part of the faith I was raised in, yet I feel no sense of conflict there.
I like to think of JBR as being in a very loving, safe place where she exists as a pure soul, cherished and loved. The way all children should be.
 
...I like to think of JBR as being in a very loving, safe place where she exists as a pure soul, cherished and loved. The way all children should be.

I have no doubt that is true, but the way she got there sure eats at a person. I have no problem leaving justice to God, but I would like to watch.
 
JMO8778,
What CK states is simply CK's personal opinion, and there is no purpose served by elevating this theory above all the other competing theories.

Steve Thomas himself tells you in his book that he has no supporting evidence, and that as a theory it is best described as inconclusive, incidentally I note you describe Steve Thomas' theory as the corporal cleaning issue as distinct from the phrase he used e.g corporal punishment, so not only is this corporal cleaning theory a corruption of his original phrase, it also rests on personal opinion with no further evidence offered!

Lou Smit once held the personal opinion that an intruder killed JonBenet, and he even offered forensic evidence, this theory was subsequently demonstrated to be false.


Its not obvious at all, its speculation on your part, you have a personal theory that you consider seems to fit the facts and points the finger at Patsy, it is simply a variation on the PDI, most of the PDI theories are based on other peoples opinions of Patsy and what constitutes a good mother.

So if it makes you feel good to draw the inference that bad mothering implies killer, so therefore Patsy killed JonBenet then carry right on, but ad hominem attacks on Patsy's maternal behaviour do not prove homicide.

Steve Thomas would have been wary of making his working theory public via a medium such as a book, never mind any legal considerations wrt his employers BPD.


.

No,it doesn't make me feel good at all to think that PR was a bad mother,so therefore,she must have killed JB..that's not what I think at all.A lot of the evidence points to her,even her own words..'and I have flashbacks of Jonbenet screaming...'.I don't think it gets any clearer than that...she was there.
does that mean she killed her?well,if she didn't, then she darn sure well knows who did.
As far as ST and CK,it seems to me to fit together,that she knows thru others that this was a big issue,and it seems obv. to me that ST talked to others and he knew it too.
do I rule out JR silencing her? not quite,but I think there were some mixed things going on,not just with that staging,but possible corporal cleaning/abuse,(whatever you want to call it),and maybe incest as well,and it's hard to know what for sure was going on,one or both.
 
No,it doesn't make me feel good at all to think that PR was a bad mother,so therefore,she must have killed JB..that's not what I think at all.A lot of the evidence points to her,even her own words..'and I have flashbacks of Jonbenet screaming...'.I don't think it gets any clearer than that...she was there.
does that mean she killed her?well,if she didn't, then she darn sure well knows who did.
As far as ST and CK,it seems to me to fit together,that she knows thru others that this was a big issue,and it seems obv. to me that ST talked to others and he knew it too.
do I rule out JR silencing her? not quite,but I think there were some mixed things going on,not just with that staging,but possible corporal cleaning/abuse,(whatever you want to call it),and maybe incest as well,and it's hard to know what for sure was going on,one or both.

JMO8778,
A lot of the evidence points to her,even her own words..'and I have flashbacks of Jonbenet screaming...'.I don't think it gets any clearer than that...
This is all based on interpretating Patsy's behaviour, there can be inumerable reasons why she said that, this is simply circumstantial evidence.

she was there.
does that mean she killed her?well,if she didn't, then she darn sure well knows who did.
So does John and Burke, and to pronounce Patsy guilty on the basis of behaviour such as corporal punishment or corporal cleaning, which have absolutely no evidence to back them up, seems rather arbitrary to me.

As far as ST and CK,it seems to me to fit together,that she knows thru others that this was a big issue,and it seems obv. to me that ST talked to others and he knew it too.
Sure and there may be thousands of parents across the USofA disciplining their children for lax toilet hygiene, but they do not go on to kill them, this aspect was obviously a theory considered by the investigators, but then given low priority due to the lack of any supporting evidence, while all the indicators pointed towards an incest theory, even if the latter is false. Curiously on this topic, there is more of a case to be made for someone disciplining JonBenet for soiling her underwear, since stained underwear was removed from JonBenet's underwear drawer, but then what has douching to do with soiling your underwear.

Anyway some people consider JonBenet's lax toilet hygiene to be a consequence of sexual abuse, so her disciplining, if any at all, may have its origins elsewhere, and be incidental as a motive for her death.


do I rule out JR silencing her? not quite,but I think there were some mixed things going on,not just with that staging,but possible corporal cleaning/abuse,(whatever you want to call it),and maybe incest as well,and it's hard to know what for sure was going on,one or both.
We know the two things that killed JonBenet e.g. strangulation and head injury, both are itemised on the autopsy report as causing death by asphyxia, anyone care to disagree with those findings?

JonBenet has multiple markings or abrasions on her neck e.g. lower ones and and an upper ligature abrasion, these patently result from an attempt at asphyxiation on either or both locations, then there is her head injury which split her skull open, which on its own would probably have resulted in her death. Now neglecting the other abrasions and assault markings on JonBenet's body, the former abrasions and head injury tell you this was no accident, someone deliberately and calculatingly strangled and bludgeoned JonBenet to death, they did not want her to wake up, that is why there is apparent overkill.

Now if you consider JonBenet's sexual injuries and the coroners comments about sexual activity prior to JonBenet's death, along with the evidence of prior chronic sexual abuse, and factor in that JonBenet had been wiped down and redressed, then there is prima facea evidence that we are dealing with a sexually motivated homicide.

This is before we consider if it was an intruder, or incest, a friend of burke, someone from the white's party etc, or Patsy losing it etc?

So I would suggest to you that its not, quoting you, hard to know what for sure was going on, actually proving something is a different ball game?


.
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JMO8778,

This is all based on interpretating Patsy's behaviour, there can be inumerable reasons why she said that, this is simply circumstantial evidence. But more likely than not, this is her subconscious mind telling the truth. And if one does not want that to happen, than they have to be extremely aware of how they are answering questions and at that point in the interview, Patsy was speaking fast and not thinking. She told the truth.


So does John and Burke, and to pronounce Patsy guilty on the basis of behaviour such as corporal punishment or corporal cleaning, which have absolutely no evidence to back them up, seems rather arbitrary to me.


Sure and there may be thousands of parents across the USofA disciplining their children for lax toilet hygiene, but they do not go on to kill them, this aspect was obviously a theory considered by the investigators, but then given low priority due to the lack of any supporting evidence, while all the indicators pointed towards an incest theory, even if the latter is false. Curiously on this topic, there is more of a case to be made for someone disciplining JonBenet for soiling her underwear, since stained underwear was removed from JonBenet's underwear drawer, but then what has douching to do with soiling your underwear. According to Steve Thomas and other detectives on the case, they have seen parents kill their children for just such a reason as bedwetting. What has douching to do with soiling underwear - I will explain. Patsy in her warped thinking had just gone through Stage IV cancer and was concerned about the ongoing rashes and damp underwear and was concerned about infections and she thought she was cleaning her and probably teaching her a lesson, but rather she was drying her out and not letting the natural fluids take over.

Anyway some people consider JonBenet's lax toilet hygiene to be a consequence of sexual abuse, so her disciplining, if any at all, may have its origins elsewhere, and be incidental as a motive for her death. Some people may consider that, but he overwhelming evidence points to the fact that while Patsy was very sick, Neddie did NOT teach JonBenet hygiene and when Patsy got her, she was well into wetting her bed and not cleaning properly resulting in damp underwear.

We know the two things that killed JonBenet e.g. strangulation and head injury, both are itemised on the autopsy report as causing death by asphyxia, anyone care to disagree with those findings?

JonBenet has multiple markings or abrasions on her neck e.g. lower ones and and an upper ligature abrasion, these patently result from an attempt at asphyxiation on either or both locations, then there is her head injury which split her skull open, which on its own would probably have resulted in her death. Now neglecting the other abrasions and assault markings on JonBenet's body, the former abrasions and head injury tell you this was no accident, someone deliberately and calculatingly strangled and bludgeoned JonBenet to death, they did not want her to wake up, that is why there is apparent overkill. OR she was dragged from her bed with the person doing the dragging twisting her her shirt and digging in with their THUMB, which marking is plainly seen on JonBenet's neck. This person is in a violent rage and not completely aware of the gravity of her actions? She is in the throws of a violent rage and proceeds to throw JB against the bathtup. Jb would have landed with the back of her head hitting the bathtub first, hence the rectangular wound on the back of her head. So there we have the strangulation and the blow happening in one fell swoop. And then we have a shaking of JB by someone who then realized the damage she had done. There is bruising to prove there was shaking.

Now if you consider JonBenet's sexual injuries and the coroners comments about sexual activity prior to JonBenet's death, along with the evidence of prior chronic sexual abuse, and factor in that JonBenet had been wiped down and redressed, then there is prima facea evidence that we are dealing with a sexually motivated homicide. For those that say she was abused, there are those who say she was not.

This is before we consider if it was an intruder, or incest, a friend of burke, someone from the white's party etc, or Patsy losing it etc?

So I would suggest to you that its not, quoting you, hard to know what for sure was going on, actually proving something is a different ball game? This wold have been proven had Detective Idiot, or should I say Detective Arndt and Eller done what was needed and separated the parents at the outset.


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My comments above.
 

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