Forensic evidence

[Solace]

I was going through the Patricia letters and I am totally convinced that SkankySue wrote them.

Okay, what are the Patricia Letters?

 

[Albert18]

Albert, what did John do that was brilliant?

I assume what we saw from law enforcement and the DA's office was a managed incompetence. This must have been started by John some time on the 26th. John helped create an environment where an incredible number of people think it is impossible for the parents to have been involved, yet other people who can't even be placed in the house that night are considered suspects.

When I first heard the Steve Thomas theory, I wasn't surprised by him naming Patsy but was surprised by where he thought John fit in. Now I think Steve was probably right about John.

If you insert John into the staging from the very beginning, you have some serious questions you have to answer.

If John helps with the staging from the beginning then he is just as guilty as Patsy. If things don't go as planned, then John would go to jail with Patsy. Doesn't the evidence tells us one panicked person was doing the staging?

The cord around JonBenet's neck wasn't a real garrotte. Isn't it important to have this be a real strangulation device?

Her wrists aren't tied right. Obviously they are tied for show, not to restain her. How hard is it to have done this right? As Rashamon posted on another forum, Delmar England suggested when John told people he had undone some of the wrist binding, what he was really trying to do was explain away why they weren't tied properly. Why couldn't he have tied them properly a couple hours earlier?

Her body was oddly hidden away. It would have made the most sense to have placed her body by one of the doors or in a common area in the basement. The presence of Burke made it impossible to leave her body on the 1st floor, but why not leave her body at the base of those windows in the basement?

Why not leave a door ajar on the 1st floor and then tell the police you found the door ajar. When making the 911 call, why not tell the operator JonBenet is missing, you have a note, and one of the doors was ajar.

When John makes up that silly story about the broken basement window, isn't he just trying to undo that part of the staging? Notice he tells this story after he has had a chance to see things in the light of day and probably after he took a good look at that window in sunlight. At that point he must think the window looks so dubious he tries to remove it as the point of entry even though there isn't an alternative entry point.

Because the ransom note seems to involve John and work, people think John dictated the note. I don't see anything in that ransom note that Patsy wouldn't know about John and his relationships at work.

So I don't see how John could be so capable on the 26th and later, yet be so incapable the night of the 25th.

 

[Solace]

I assume what we saw from law enforcement and the DA's office was a managed incompetence. This must have been started by John some time on the 26th. John helped create an environment where an incredible number of people think it is impossible for the parents to have been involved, yet other people who can't even be placed in the house that night are considered suspects.

When I first heard the Steve Thomas theory, I wasn't surprised by him naming Patsy but was surprised by where he thought John fit in. Now I think Steve was probably right about John.

If you insert John into the staging from the very beginning, you have some serious questions you have to answer.

If John helps with the staging from the beginning then he is just as guilty as Patsy. If things don't go as planned, then John would go to jail with Patsy. Doesn't the evidence tells us one panicked person was doing the staging?

The cord around JonBenet's neck wasn't a real garrotte. Isn't it important to have this be a real strangulation device?

Her wrists aren't tied right. Obviously they are tied for show, not to restain her. How hard is it to have done this right? As Rashamon posted on another forum, Delmar England suggested when John told people he had undone some of the wrist binding, what he was really trying to do was explain away why they weren't tied properly. Why couldn't he have tied them properly a couple hours earlier?

Her body was oddly hidden away. It would have made the most sense to have placed her body by one of the doors or in a common area in the basement. The presence of Burke made it impossible to leave her body on the 1st floor, but why not leave her body at the base of those windows in the basement?

Why not leave a door ajar on the 1st floor and then tell the police you found the door ajar. When making the 911 call, why not tell the operator JonBenet is missing, you have a note, and one of the doors was ajar.

When John makes up that silly story about the broken basement window, isn't he just trying to undo that part of the staging? Notice he tells this story after he has had a chance to see things in the light of day and probably after he took a good look at that window in sunlight. At that point he must think the window looks so dubious he tries to remove it as the point of entry even though there isn't an alternative entry point. I was thinking the exact same thing the other day. Exactly.

Because the ransom note seems to involve John and work, people think John dictated the note. I don't see anything in that ransom note that Patsy wouldn't know about John and his relationships at work.

So I don't see how John could be so capable on the 26th and later, yet be so incapable the night of the 25th.

Gotcha.

 

[Dru]

Albert18, you bring up a lot of good points, in particular about how JR is usually capable of accomplishing things a whole lot better than they were done on the night of the 25th, which does seem to point to PR as solely responsible for the crime and the clumsy cover-up.

There's just one problem, IMO. The time element.

If the murder was committed no earlier than midnight (and I tend to think it was nearly an hour later, myself), then PR had to do the following between midnight and five-fifty-two a.m., alone:

-the head blow to JBR's head.
-the near-immediate infliction of the vaginal wound.
-the clean-up of same (using JR's shirt, perhaps?).
-the actual strangulation.
-the replacement of the stained underwear with the size-12 panties (and why? Surely PR knew where JBR's normal sized underwear was).
-the dressing (or redressing) of the body in the damp long johns.
-the relocation of JBR's body to the basement/wine cellar (unless we theorize that the crime actually took place there, which I don't think most people believe).
-the fashioning of the garrote (including finding and cutting the rope).
-the fashioning of the wrist 'restraints.'
-the placement of the silver or duct tape over JBR's mouth.
-the wrapping of JBR's body in the blankets (with additional tape, right?).
-the concealment of the rope, tape, size six underpants, remaining pairs of size 12 Bloomies and other items which were never recovered at the crime scene.
-the clean-up of any suspicious debris at the original crime scene.
-the application of PR's makeup (and her hairdo? Her hair wasn't disheveled or anything, right?).
-AND, in this just-under-six-hour time period, the composition of a 300+ word, three page ransom note that appears to have taken more than one attempt to write.

Did I miss anything?

Since I personally think the crime took place somewhere between one and two a.m., that shortens the window to between four and five hours. And I haven't accounted at all for any pauses for crying, shock, etc. (though as shock affects different people differently it's hard to calculate its effects in a situation like this).

To me, two people working at a pretty feverish pace would be necessary for all the elements of the staging to be in place as they were by the time of the 911 call. And if JR had bought, even for a moment, the kidnapping scenario (say, before he found the body) I'm not sure he'd have remembered to cancel the plane trip so quickly on the morning of the 26th.

 

[Ames]

Albert18, you bring up a lot of good points, in particular about how JR is usually capable of accomplishing things a whole lot better than they were done on the night of the 25th, which does seem to point to PR as solely responsible for the crime and the clumsy cover-up.

There's just one problem, IMO. The time element.

If the murder was committed no earlier than midnight (and I tend to think it was nearly an hour later, myself), then PR had to do the following between midnight and five-fifty-two a.m., alone:

-the head blow to JBR's head.
-the near-immediate infliction of the vaginal wound.
-the clean-up of same (using JR's shirt, perhaps?).
-the actual strangulation.
-the replacement of the stained underwear with the size-12 panties (and why? Surely PR knew where JBR's normal sized underwear was).
-the dressing (or redressing) of the body in the damp long johns.
-the relocation of JBR's body to the basement/wine cellar (unless we theorize that the crime actually took place there, which I don't think most people believe).
-the fashioning of the garrote (including finding and cutting the rope).
-the fashioning of the wrist 'restraints.'
-the placement of the silver or duct tape over JBR's mouth.
-the wrapping of JBR's body in the blankets (with additional tape, right?).
-the concealment of the rope, tape, size six underpants, remaining pairs of size 12 Bloomies and other items which were never recovered at the crime scene.
-the clean-up of any suspicious debris at the original crime scene.
-the application of PR's makeup (and her hairdo? Her hair wasn't disheveled or anything, right?).
-AND, in this just-under-six-hour time period, the composition of a 300+ word, three page ransom note that appears to have taken more than one attempt to write.

Did I miss anything?

Since I personally think the crime took place somewhere between one and two a.m., that shortens the window to between four and five hours. And I haven't accounted at all for any pauses for crying, shock, etc. (though as shock affects different people differently it's hard to calculate its effects in a situation like this).

To me, two people working at a pretty feverish pace would be necessary for all the elements of the staging to be in place as they were by the time of the 911 call. And if JR had bought, even for a moment, the kidnapping scenario (say, before he found the body) I'm not sure he'd have remembered to cancel the plane trip so quickly on the morning of the 26th.

Exactly..there is no way that Patsy could have done all of those things alone.

 

[Solace]

Exactly..there is no way that Patsy could have done all of those things alone.

I agree and lets not forget that Patsy made that slip about John calling her from the basement and she meant to say bedroom. That pesky subconscious mind, it is always working.

 

[Ames]

I agree and lets not forget that Patsy made that slip about John calling her from the basement and she meant to say bedroom. That pesky subconscious mind, it is always working.

YEP...that proves that he helped her. She was not Wonder Woman....or as fast as a speeding bullet.....there is no way that she could have done all of those things by herself. You know....staging a crime scene takes TIME.

 

[Solace]

Still not sure what you mean. What letters.

 

[coloradokares]

Not that it makes a whole lot of difference here, but I firmly believe the "Patricia Letters" were written by John Mark Karr. Word for word, it is his writing...

Why do you believe that....firmly

 

[Ames]

Still not sure what you mean. What letters.

Yeah, what is a Patricia Letters??

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

I was going through the Patricia letters and I am totally convinced that SkankySue wrote them.

No, just go through them and compare them to JMK's emails - - -They are nearly word-for-word the same...

 

[rashomon]

I assume what we saw from law enforcement and the DA's office was a managed incompetence. This must have been started by John some time on the 26th. John helped create an environment where an incredible number of people think it is impossible for the parents to have been involved, yet other people who can't even be placed in the house that night are considered suspects.

When I first heard the Steve Thomas theory, I wasn't surprised by him naming Patsy but was surprised by where he thought John fit in. Now I think Steve was probably right about John.

If you insert John into the staging from the very beginning, you have some serious questions you have to answer.

If John helps with the staging from the beginning then he is just as guilty as Patsy. If things don't go as planned, then John would go to jail with Patsy. Doesn't the evidence tells us one panicked person was doing the staging?

The cord around JonBenet's neck wasn't a real garrotte. Isn't it important to have this be a real strangulation device?

Her wrists aren't tied right. Obviously they are tied for show, not to restain her. How hard is it to have done this right? As Rashamon posted on another forum, Delmar England suggested when John told people he had undone some of the wrist binding, what he was really trying to do was explain away why they weren't tied properly. Why couldn't he have tied them properly a couple hours earlier?

Her body was oddly hidden away. It would have made the most sense to have placed her body by one of the doors or in a common area in the basement. The presence of Burke made it impossible to leave her body on the 1st floor, but why not leave her body at the base of those windows in the basement?

Why not leave a door ajar on the 1st floor and then tell the police you found the door ajar. When making the 911 call, why not tell the operator JonBenet is missing, you have a note, and one of the doors was ajar.

When John makes up that silly story about the broken basement window, isn't he just trying to undo that part of the staging? Notice he tells this story after he has had a chance to see things in the light of day and probably after he took a good look at that window in sunlight. At that point he must think the window looks so dubious he tries to remove it as the point of entry even though there isn't an alternative entry point.

Because the ransom note seems to involve John and work, people think John dictated the note. I don't see anything in that ransom note that Patsy wouldn't know about John and his relationships at work.

So I don't see how John could be so capable on the 26th and later, yet be so incapable the night of the 25th.

My guess is that John initially did not believe they ever would get away with a staged scene. But since it was their only chance, he went along with it. In German, we have the sarcastic phrase "You don't have a chance, but you should use it!" . But I think John let Patsy run most of the staging alone, so that in case they should not get away with it, he could argue that he himself had only been something like a 'shocked bystander'. The less he got involved in the staging the better for him. I see John Ramsey as a very calculating type of person. But the more he came to realize on Dec 26 how incompetent the cops actually were (being in the house for hours without having found the body) the more his confidence grew that they might get away with it after all. Therefore he tried to make the staged scene more convincing, doing things like closing the basement window and lying about the wrist ligatures) . jmo

 

[rashomon]

Albert18, you bring up a lot of good points, in particular about how JR is usually capable of accomplishing things a whole lot better than they were done on the night of the 25th, which does seem to point to PR as solely responsible for the crime and the clumsy cover-up.

There's just one problem, IMO. The time element.

If the murder was committed no earlier than midnight (and I tend to think it was nearly an hour later, myself), then PR had to do the following between midnight and five-fifty-two a.m., alone:

-the head blow to JBR's head.
-the near-immediate infliction of the vaginal wound.
-the clean-up of same (using JR's shirt, perhaps?).
-the actual strangulation.
-the replacement of the stained underwear with the size-12 panties (and why? Surely PR knew where JBR's normal sized underwear was).
-the dressing (or redressing) of the body in the damp long johns.
-the relocation of JBR's body to the basement/wine cellar (unless we theorize that the crime actually took place there, which I don't think most people believe).
-the fashioning of the garrote (including finding and cutting the rope).
-the fashioning of the wrist 'restraints.'
-the placement of the silver or duct tape over JBR's mouth.
-the wrapping of JBR's body in the blankets (with additional tape, right?).
-the concealment of the rope, tape, size six underpants, remaining pairs of size 12 Bloomies and other items which were never recovered at the crime scene.
-the clean-up of any suspicious debris at the original crime scene.
-the application of PR's makeup (and her hairdo? Her hair wasn't disheveled or anything, right?).
-AND, in this just-under-six-hour time period, the composition of a 300+ word, three page ransom note that appears to have taken more than one attempt to write.

Did I miss anything?

Since I personally think the crime took place somewhere between one and two a.m., that shortens the window to between four and five hours. And I haven't accounted at all for any pauses for crying, shock, etc. (though as shock affects different people differently it's hard to calculate its effects in a situation like this).

To me, two people working at a pretty feverish pace would be necessary for all the elements of the staging to be in place as they were by the time of the 911 call. And if JR had bought, even for a moment, the kidnapping scenario (say, before he found the body) I'm not sure he'd have remembered to cancel the plane trip so quickly on the morning of the 26th.

I believe one person could have done all this easily in four to five hours. For example, actions like carrying JB's body down or putting duct tape her mouth would require very little time. What took longest imo was the ransom note (estimated time 1 to 1 1/2 hours).
I believe Patsy got John involved because she just didn't have the nerve to carry it out all alone.

 

[Solace]

My guess is that John initially did not believe they ever would get away with a staged scene. But since it was their only chance, he went along with it. In German, we have the sarcastic phrase "You don't have a chance, but you should use it!" . But I think John let Patsy run most of the staging alone, so that in case they should not get away with it, he could argue that he himself had only been something like a 'shocked bystander'. The less he got involved in the staging the better for him. I see John Ramsey as a very calculating type of person. But the more he came to realize on Dec 26 how incompetent the cops actually were (being in the house for hours without having found the body) the more his confidence grew that they might get away with it after all. Therefore he tried to make the staged scene more convincing, doing things like closing the basement window and lying about the wrist ligatures) . jmo

I absolutely agree. I was thinking about the window and saying to myself, why would he not tell about the window. For one reason only, it is too obvious - so he closed it. But why would he mention it months later that it was open? Is that just one of the items that the Ramseys throw in their so we can jump through hoops trying to figure it out? There is only one reason why he would not mention the window and that is if he thought it was too obvious. Any parent looking for their child is going to say the window is open. He also probably noticed the spider webs in full force.

Rash, why do you think he tells about the open window. I REALLY WANT TO HEAR YOUR ANSWER. PLEEEEEEEEESE.

 

[Dru]

I believe one person could have done all this easily in four to five hours. For example, actions like carrying JB's body down or putting duct tape her mouth would require very little time. What took longest imo was the ransom note (estimated time 1 to 1 1/2 hours).
I believe Patsy got John involved because she just didn't have the nerve to carry it out all alone.

Well, yes and no.

I mean, you're not just carrying your youngest child downstairs to give her a cookie. You're carrying a corpse, a dead weight, and it's absolutely imperative (if we go the single stager route) that the parent doing the carrying not wake any of the other occupants of the house. We're talking a long, slow descent, most probably down those spiral stairs, one step at a time, heart pounding, choking back sobs. Each step sounds like a rifle shot to your ears in the silent darkness as you strain to hear whether anyone has heard your footsteps; your eyes fool you several times into thinking that someone has heard, that someone is coming. Step...pause...step...pause...step...all the way down the spiral stairs, across the dark kitchen, to the basement door. Do you dare to turn on a light for that trek down the creaky basement step? No; wait. There's a flashlight in a cabinet nearby...can you reach it, without laying down the silent bundle in your arms?

And the thing about the duct tape is, no one knows where it came from. A roll of it wasn't found, as far as I know, and there's speculation that it came from one of JBR's American Girl dolls. It wasn't a matter of just grabbing a roll of tape in the basement and cutting off a piece--someone had to remember where a bit of tape might be, and locate it, and use it, in all likelihood.

So I think that even the 'simplest' elements of the staging would have taken longer than one might assume.

 

[Solace]

Well, yes and no.

I mean, you're not just carrying your youngest child downstairs to give her a cookie. You're carrying a corpse, a dead weight, and it's absolutely imperative (if we go the single stager route) that the parent doing the carrying not wake any of the other occupants of the house. We're talking a long, slow descent, most probably down those spiral stairs, one step at a time, heart pounding, choking back sobs. Each step sounds like a rifle shot to your ears in the silent darkness as you strain to hear whether anyone has heard your footsteps; your eyes fool you several times into thinking that someone has heard, that someone is coming. Step...pause...step...pause...step...all the way down the spiral stairs, across the dark kitchen, to the basement door. Do you dare to turn on a light for that trek down the creaky basement step? No; wait. There's a flashlight in a cabinet nearby...can you reach it, without laying down the silent bundle in your arms?

And the thing about the duct tape is, no one knows where it came from. A roll of it wasn't found, as far as I know, and there's speculation that it came from one of JBR's American Girl dolls. It wasn't a matter of just grabbing a roll of tape in the basement and cutting off a piece--someone had to remember where a bit of tape might be, and locate it, and use it, in all likelihood.

So I think that even the 'simplest' elements of the staging would have taken longer than one might assume.

Not bad Dru. I like your writing.

 

[JMO8778]

I think JR did help w the staging,thus his shirt fibers in her crotch area.Then we have Patsy saying he screamed and she screamed when he 'came up from the basement'.And the too big underwear...I think JR did that.I think he took over and Patsy fell apart.I think he directed and told her what to do.I think he tied the knot and ended JB's life with the ligature strangling.As well as,yes,the ransom note pointing to JM and friends.I think that's why JR kept giving his name as a suspect...he dictated the note to point to him/them.
And,a couple more,JR didn't wake Burke and ask him what he seen/heard during the night,or even to keep him closeby in case said intruder(s) was still in the house...and he got him out of the house quickly without being questioned.
And the last thing is.....JR and Burke being on the 911 tape,and the R's all lying about it.(plus,BR saying JB walked into the house,while the PR and JR say she was carried straight to bed).Oh yes,and then..that leads to the pineapple,and enough said.He lied,so he had to have known she didn't go straight to bed.
Then we have JR not telling LE to lay low or JB will be killed.And him lying about the broken window,and of seeing a strange car but not reporting it.
And then why didn't JR use to the friends called over to his advantage,at least the men,to organize a search party?Why didn't he search the yard and n-borhood,and drive around???
I probably missed something but I think that's the gist of it.

 

[JMO8778]

Then we have JR not telling LE to lay low or JB will be killed.

Now I know why I felt like I was doing text messaging on the last post,lol.

No seriously,something I noticed in the autopsy pics is that JB's mouth was open.That led me to recall how when one of my pets died,she had a seizure b/f she passed,and that caused her jaw to 'lock' in place,and she died with it that way.I do have some medical background,but not enough to know,(and since we can't see the whole picture?) if that's what could have happened to JB.
I was wondering if she was seizuring at the moment the ligature ended her life,(edited to add: is there any way to tell if she was having a seizure when the ligature strangled her? by placement of her jaw,mouth,or otherwise?)and if so....he/ she /they had to have known she was still alive,of course.Is there anyone we can ask about that,or anyone that knows,rightoffhand? thx.

 

[DeeDee249]

That's a very good point, about JR's confidence growing as soon as he saw how much they could really get away with that morning. By that time, his lawyers had already contacted the DA's office, as they were so chummy with Hunter, and the word had come down to treat the R's as victims, not suspects. We all know that if this was anyone else's home, all 3 of the surviving R's would have been placed under police watch in different rooms and the adults questioned separately. NO one would be allowed in to an unsecured crime scene, no clergy, no friends, no "victim's advocates". And certainly no one other than LE would be allowed to "go get the mail" or search the home, let alone being TOLD to do it. That prhase "JR went to get the mail" always infuriated me. They didn't even have an outdoor mailbox, did they? I am sure I read that mail came in through the front door mail slot. So weren't LE wondering where he was that it took an hour? The house wasn't THAT big?

 

[JMO8778]

I agree,Arndt lost track of him,why not go look for him? Everyone else was with PR.