Forensic evidence

[UKGuy]

The question is how much medical knowledge did the Ramseys have and how much clear thinking was to be expected from them in this extreme situation.
I believe not realizing that JB was still alive (though the wound bled) was confused thinking on their part. Confused thinking is the constant which can be observed in virtually all aspects of the staging. The loosely tied wrist ligatures for example which did not restrain, with a 15-inch space of cord between the hands. The ransom note with its 'small foreign faction' nonsense and inane words like 'two gentlemen' and 'advise you to be rested' reflects this confused thinking too. I think the Ramseys were only operating on some barely functioning 'mental auto-pilot' on that fatal night. Hardly surprising, considering the situation they found themselves in.

The fibers from Patsy's jacket which were found in the wrappings of the garrote handle, in the paint tray in and on the duct tape implicate her as the stager of the garrote scene. jmpo

The question is how much medical knowledge did the Ramseys have and how much clear thinking was to be expected from them in this extreme situation.

Enough clear thinking to realize some degree of staging was required to mask any prior sexual molestation, and enough medical knowledge to determine that JonBenet was dead, and required to be dumped down in the basement.

All this rhetoric about 'mental auto-pilot', confused thinking, panicking, rage etc, do not explain away JonBenet's prior sexual molestation, the sexual abuse prior to her death, her sexual wound, or her unnaturally enlarged hymen!


.

 

[coloradokares]

Enough clear thinking to realize some degree of staging was required to mask any prior sexual molestation, and enough medical knowledge to determine that JonBenet was dead, and required to be dumped down in the basement.

All this rhetoric about 'mental auto-pilot', confused thinking, panicking, rage etc, do not explain away JonBenet's prior sexual molestation, the sexual abuse prior to her death, her sexual wound, or her unnaturally enlarged hymen!


.[/quote

 

[Ames]

Also from personal exerience I am recovering from a severe bleed into the brain All I had was very shallow respiraton. Had scuh a weak pulse it was undetectable till fight for life put me on support. They were going to discontinue hydration I was a canidate for enforcement of my living will!! I changed that trust me. If experts can error on such matters I have no problem with panicked parents thinking she was dead not deeply unconcious

That same thing happened with my mom. Right before she died, we had hospice coming over to her house, to take care of her...check her pulse...etc. The week BEFORE she died...her pulse was so faint that the nurses couldn't even detect it...but, we knew she was alive..because her eyes were open, and she was talking to us. The nurse couldn't check her pulse using the fingers to the wrist, or neck area....she had to use a stethoscope. I seriously believe that Patsy thought that JB was dead right after the head blow, when in reality, she was unconscious.

 

[Ames]

Agreed, there was no plan to go home and kill JonBenet that night. It is a tragedy of rage. She was exhausted and took it out on JonBenet. She did not realize her own strength and when people get angry they are NOT thinking about how strong they are and how careful they should be.

And add a "couple of cocktails" that Patsy admitted to having at the White's party (in one of her interviews...and in yet, another interview..she says that she only had ONE glass of WINE).....anyway, add that to exhaustion....and you really have the recipe for a rage attack. She didn't know her own strength.

 

[Ames]

****I think you are right, they were on panic auto pilot!! They envisoned all their wealth power and prestige going right out the window. That is why the staging was so ......bizzare. Staging within staging

I agree with you CK. I am sure that they were in a HUGE panic. Their child was thrown into the rounded corner of the tub....and they thought she was dead. So, they were running around screaming..."what do we do? What do we do? We can't go to jail!! Our lives will be ruined!!!! What about Burke??? We can't go to jail!!! We have to think of something quick!!!"

 

[JMO8778]

****I think you are right, they were on panic auto pilot!! They envisoned all their wealth power and prestige going right out the window. That is why the staging was so ......bizzare. Staging within staging

I agree,experience has taught me that money means more to some ppl than they let on.This was about getting out of the messes they created the cheapest way they thought they could.
In my own observance,not quite the same way,nothing criminal,but I can see how it adds up.

 

[JMO8778]

The question is how much medical knowledge did the Ramseys have and how much clear thinking was to be expected from them in this extreme situation.
I believe not realizing that JB was still alive (though the wound bled) was confused thinking on their part. Confused thinking is the constant which can be observed in virtually all aspects of the staging. The loosely tied wrist ligatures for example which did not restrain, with a 15-inch space of cord between the hands. The ransom note with its 'small foreign faction' nonsense and inane words like 'two gentlemen' and 'advise you to be rested' reflects this confused thinking too. I think the Ramseys were only operating on some barely functioning 'mental auto-pilot' on that fatal night. Hardly surprising, considering the situation they found themselves in.

The fibers from Patsy's jacket which were found in the wrappings of the garrote handle, in the paint tray in and on the duct tape implicate her as the stager of the garrote scene. jmpo

But what about JR's shirt fiber evidence?Was he already undressed,or was he in the basement,helping w the staging and he used whatever was handy?Because of his shirt fiber evidence,I think it's likely he staged the sexual assualt w the paintbrush handle.Because of PR's fibers being found in the tray,I think she was there and she broke it for him,as per his instructions.I think JR told her to find some rope and tape,and that's why her fibers are in it..she carried them close to her while taking them to JR.
And the last things are,I think JR tied that knot,he would have the knowledge,I don't see it as clumsily tied in the pics;it was a simple knot, yes.But how many women know how to tie one?I think he would have had more guts to finish her off w the ligature as well.Patsy may have hit her in anger..but that was controlled staging,not anger.I think she would have had regret from having already caused the head injury, and it would have been difficult for her to do so.But JR had the guts to do it.
And as far as JB's hands being tied..I think it was first staged as a sex crime,that was abandoned and an attempt to cover it ensued,with one exception...JR forgot to change the wrist ligatures to be bound tightly,so that it no longer appeared to be a sex crime.That's why he lied and said he had to undo her hands,as they were tied tightly...they weren't,and he knew it.I think this indicates he tied them.He may have suddenly remembered that,and that's why HE found her,so he could lie about it.In DOI,JR says he 'suddenly' remembered the broken window in the basement and went to look at it.NO.I think he **suddenly** remembered he forgot to change the ligature staging on her hands !!!

 

[Dru]

I agree with you CK. I am sure that they were in a HUGE panic. Their child was thrown into the rounded corner of the tub....and they thought she was dead. So, they were running around screaming..."what do we do? What do we do? We can't go to jail!! Our lives will be ruined!!!! What about Burke??? We can't go to jail!!! We have to think of something quick!!!"

But Ames, this means that within a very short time of all this running and screaming, they decided to lay JBR's limp, apparently lifeless body down, remove her long johns and underwear, separate her legs and anything else that needed to be separated (sorry if that's too graphic) and violate JBR by jabbing her hard enough internally to make her bleed.

In fact, this had to be done after the head blow, and before the strangulation. The person who strangled JBR was actually her killer, no matter who struck the blow to the head.

Then, having done all this, they decide that no, it would look better as a kidnapping? But according to your theory BOTH parents know that the vaginal wound has been inflicted--and yet the note implicating Access Graphics insiders and hinting at revenge on JR is written? They have to know that the vaginal wound will not make sense now.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this scenario. That wound was inflicted for a reason--and if the reason was to make JBR's death look like a sex crime, then the forensic evidence shows that whoever inflicted the head blow was not running around in a blind panic, but was calm and cool enough to know that the next thing that had to be done was to violate horrifically the body of the child laying so still on the floor. I can believe lots of things about parents who commit homicide, but I can't believe that a "rage attack" with lots of panic suddenly morphs into something this cold, calculated, and brutal.

Whoever was capable of inflicting that wound on a still-living child meant for her to die. There was nothing 'accidental' about it.

 

[Dru]

But what about JR's shirt fiber evidence?Was he already undressed,or was he in the basement,helping w the staging and he used whatever was handy?Because of his shirt fiber evidence,I think it's likely he staged the sexual assualt w the paintbrush handle.Because of PR's fibers being found in the tray,I think she was there and she broke it for him,as per his instructions.I think JR told her to find some rope and tape,and that's why her fibers are in it..she carried them close to her while taking them to JR.
And the last things are,I think JR tied that knot,he would have the knowledge,I don't see it as clumsily tied in the pics;it was a simple knot, yes.But how many women know how to tie one?I think he would have had more guts to finish her off w the ligature as well. Patsy may have hit her in anger..but that was controlled staging,not anger.I think she would have had regret from having already caused the head injury, and it would have been difficult for her to do so.But JR had the guts to do it.
And as far as JB's hands being tied..I think it was first staged as a sex crime,that was abandoned and an attempt to cover it ensued,with one exception...JR forgot to change the wrist ligatures to be bound tightly,so that it no longer appeared to be a sex crime.That's why he lied and said he had to undo her hands,as they were tied tightly...they weren't,and he knew it.I think this indicates he tied them.He may have suddenly remembered that,and that's why HE found her,so he could lie about it.In DOI,JR says he 'suddenly' remembered the broken window in the basement and went to look at it.NO.I think he **suddenly** remembered he forgot to change the ligature staging on her hands !!!

(Emphasis added by Dru)

You realize that this means that you think JR was the killer, right?

 

[JMO8778]

Albert18,

How does a sex crime explain a homicide?


Therein lies a mystery particularly for the PDI stagers, e.g. why bother staging a sexual assault only to then hide it from view?


.

I think this one is easy to figure out...the plan,(as evidenced by the RN) to get her body out of the house was abandoned,therefore elements of the prior staging were changed,mainly the sexual assault staging.In order to hide it,JB was wiped down,redressed,and covered with a blanket.
I think JR did this in an attempt to not implicate himself,since her body would be found in the house,and he,being a man of course,would be the most likely suspect.HIDING her sexual assault, and the attempt to rid of it entirely,gives JR more time to HIGH TAIL IT OUT OF TOWN (which is exactly what he tried to do!) after her body is found.He knew if she was found with blatant visible sexual wounds,he would likely be arrested right on the spot.For this reason, I do not think the paintbrush handle was left inside her.He was trying to draw attention away from that,not twds it,now that they'd changed their minds about taking her out of the house.
I also think he wanted to leave town b/f he was asked to sign the consent form for an autopsy.In DOI,he says he was asked to sign something,which he thought was about an autopsy.He knew that not to be true,and it wasn't.

 

[JMO8778]

(Emphasis added by Dru)

You realize that this means that you think JR was the killer, right?

Yes,I think he is likely the one who ended her life with the ligature strangling.Whether he thought her already dead,I don't know.
But I do think Patsy inflicted the initial damage,ie-the head wound.I do question if it was over toileting issues though..I think it's possible she did it out of jealousy of JB,esp if JR was sexually abusing her.
That reminds me of her 'I don't feel pretty' comment.Who would have told her that?? A jealous Patsy?

 

[coloradokares]

But Ames, this means that within a very short time of all this running and screaming, they decided to lay JBR's limp, apparently lifeless body down, remove her long johns and underwear, separate her legs and anything else that needed to be separated (sorry if that's too graphic) and violate JBR by jabbing her hard enough internally to make her bleed.

In fact, this had to be done after the head blow, and before the strangulation. The person who strangled JBR was actually her killer, no matter who struck the blow to the head.

Then, having done all this, they decide that no, it would look better as a kidnapping? But according to your theory BOTH parents know that the vaginal wound has been inflicted--and yet the note implicating Access Graphics insiders and hinting at revenge on JR is written? They have to know that the vaginal wound will not make sense now.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this scenario. That wound was inflicted for a reason--and if the reason was to make JBR's death look like a sex crime, then the forensic evidence shows that whoever inflicted the head blow was not running around in a blind panic, but was calm and cool enough to know that the next thing that had to be done was to violate horrifically the body of the child laying so still on the floor. I can believe lots of things about parents who commit homicide, but I can't believe that a "rage attack" with lots of panic suddenly morphs into something this cold, calculated, and brutal.

Whoever was capable of inflicting that wound on a still-living child meantfor her to die. There was nothing 'accidental' about it.

Irregardless of the igature stranulation Jon Benet was mortally wounded. Her skull was fractured so greatly it was a fatal blow so how do we ignore that in favor of the staging and what was inflicted in that ? Sad to say her parent(s) ended her life Perhaps both were responsible for their own tragic reasons

 

[DeeDee249]

Is a consent form needed when murder/suspicious death is suspected? I don't think it is. As a matter of fact, in many states, when a child has died, even when it seems to be natural causes or a known illness, an autopsy is mandatory.

I also think the original plan was to get JBR's body out of the house that night. But after the "incident", they had the clean-up, redressing, composing the note, wiping the flashlight, all the little "details"...and they simply ran out of time. Dawn was approaching, they had a pilot waiting on them, and their car would likely be seen leaving the garage. I think they could have put her body in the car without beeing seen, but someone could have heard/seen their car leaving. They couldn't risk it, so their best bet was to stage a crime scene and call it a kidnapping.
I don't think feces was the reason for the clean up. I think it was because of blood. I feel there were things not written in the autopsy, but as the coroner did mention the "soft green fecal material" in the lower intestine, he would likely have mentioned feces in the colon and rectum, where there would have to be some traces of it if she had lost control of her bowels at the time of death (either due to primary flaccidity of death or a fear release while alive).
I do think she was unconscious for the garrotting and sexual wound. There would be far more serious injuries caused to a squirming, hysterical child. But that doesn't mean she was unconscious during a sexual assault. If there WAS sex abuse (and it could have involved the garrotte as well) this could be something that had been done to her before that night as well.

 

[JMO8778]

But Ames, this means that within a very short time of all this running and screaming, they decided to lay JBR's limp, apparently lifeless body down, remove her long johns and underwear, separate her legs and anything else that needed to be separated (sorry if that's too graphic) and violate JBR by jabbing her hard enough internally to make her bleed.

Some of the experts think the time bet. the head wound and the strangulation could have been as long as 45 mins.The bleeding in her brain had to have time to develop.I know there is some controversy on that,but I believe that to be true.

Then, having done all this, they decide that no, it would look better as a kidnapping? But according to your theory BOTH parents know that the vaginal wound has been inflicted--and yet the note implicating Access Graphics insiders and hinting at revenge on JR is written? They have to know that the vaginal wound will not make sense now.

It was planned as a KN anyway.Why the staged sexual assault then? I think it was an attempt to cover past abuse,so as to when and if she was found,it would be thought the KN abused her,not a family member.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this scenario. That wound was inflicted for a reason--and if the reason was to make JBR's death look like a sex crime, then the forensic evidence shows that whoever inflicted the head blow was not running around in a blind panic, but was calm and cool enough to know that the next thing that had to be done was to violate horrifically the body of the child laying so still on the floor. I can believe lots of things about parents who commit homicide, but I can't believe that a "rage attack" with lots of panic suddenly morphs into something this cold, calculated, and brutal.

I think it makes sense if you throw 2 ppl into the crime...a raging Patsy who inflicted the head wound goes and gets JR,and he takes over from there.He's working in a businesslike manner as he is used to doing,and yes,it is cold and calculating,but he's doing whatever it takes to throw suspicion away from themselves.
I agree that it was intentional from that point on,but as to whether or not Patsy meant to inflict a fatal blow,I don't know.I can't help but think that the detectives who went after her so hard did think it was intentional.I think they pursued her aggressively for that reason,as much as they were allowed to anyway,which wasn't much. But they did try.As far as JR goes,his fiber evidence wasn't in then.

 

[JMO8778]

Is a consent form needed when murder/suspicious death is suspected? I don't think it is. As a matter of fact, in many states, when a child has died, even when it seems to be natural causes or a known illness, an autopsy is mandatory.

In the end,no,but I think a parent/guardian is initially asked to sign a consent form for that.

I also think the original plan was to get JBR's body out of the house that night. But after the "incident", they had the clean-up, redressing, composing the note, wiping the flashlight, all the little "details"...and they simply ran out of time. Dawn was approaching, they had a pilot waiting on them, and their car would likely be seen leaving the garage. I think they could have put her body in the car without beeing seen, but someone could have heard/seen their car leaving. They couldn't risk it, so their best bet was to stage a crime scene and call it a kidnapping.

good thoughts,I think so,too.

I don't think feces was the reason for the clean up. I think it was because of blood.

me too.

I do think she was unconscious for the garrotting and sexual wound. There would be far more serious injuries caused to a squirming, hysterical child. But that doesn't mean she was unconscious during a sexual assault. If there WAS sex abuse (and it could have involved the garrotte as well) this could be something that had been done to her before that night as well.

I agree with both.The garrotte was said not to be functional as one,the way it was made,but I think the staged sexual assault was an attempt to hide past abuse.

 

[Tober]

Irregardless of the igature stranulation Jon Benet was mortally wounded. Her skull was fractured so greatly it was a fatal blow so how do we ignore that in favor of the staging and what was inflicted in that ?

Yes. Patsy should have been charged with child abuse resulting in death, and John charged with tampering with physical evidence and obstructing justice.

 

[JMO8778]

Yes. Patsy should have been charged with child abuse resulting in death, and John charged with tampering with physical evidence and obstructing justice.

JR should have also been charged with either murder or manslaughter,let anjury decide what his fate should be,but I think he should have been arrested.
Patsy I don't know..I think it could have been intentional.

 

[Eagle1]

JR should have also been charged with either murder or manslaughter,let a what his fate should be,but I think he should have been arrested.
Patsy I don't know..I think it could have been intentional.

Oh, I thought your statement from ancient Daniel would be quoted. I love it, prophecy being one of my hobbies, and wonder what's the specific reason for using it in this case? You do agree, I'm sure, that in chapter 11 someone besides Antiochus Epiphanes is meant, and the chapter 12 change comes at the end of his having for a time deceived the whole world? (Relevant, very possibly, to this case, a destructive mind-controller, in sheeps' clothing posing as one of the messengers of light.)

 

[JMO8778]

Oh, I thought your statement from ancient Daniel would be quoted. I love it, prophecy being one of my hobbies, and wonder what's the specific reason for using it in this case? You do agree, I'm sure, that in chapter 11 someone besides Antiochus Epiphanes is meant, and the chapter 12 change comes at the end of his having for a time deceived the whole world? (Relevant, very possibly, to this case, a destructive mind-controller, in sheeps' clothing posing as one of the messengers of light.)

Do you mean someone besides the antichrist?
thx,it's for ppl who intentionally lie about the facts of the case,I don't mean anyone who honestly has a different opinion;that's fine,it's just that some,esp here in my state,have intentionally spread dishonesty around,as well as reporters who side w the R's only b/c it is to their advantage to so do,as they know they'll get more interviews that way.
If you've been studying it for long, you probably know whom all I mean.

 

[Ames]

But Ames, this means that within a very short time of all this running and screaming, they decided to lay JBR's limp, apparently lifeless body down, remove her long johns and underwear, separate her legs and anything else that needed to be separated (sorry if that's too graphic) and violate JBR by jabbing her hard enough internally to make her bleed.

In fact, this had to be done after the head blow, and before the strangulation. The person who strangled JBR was actually her killer, no matter who struck the blow to the head.

Then, having done all this, they decide that no, it would look better as a kidnapping? But according to your theory BOTH parents know that the vaginal wound has been inflicted--and yet the note implicating Access Graphics insiders and hinting at revenge on JR is written? They have to know that the vaginal wound will not make sense now.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this scenario. That wound was inflicted for a reason--and if the reason was to make JBR's death look like a sex crime, then the forensic evidence shows that whoever inflicted the head blow was not running around in a blind panic, but was calm and cool enough to know that the next thing that had to be done was to violate horrifically the body of the child laying so still on the floor. I can believe lots of things about parents who commit homicide, but I can't believe that a "rage attack" with lots of panic suddenly morphs into something this cold, calculated, and brutal.

Whoever was capable of inflicting that wound on a still-living child meant for her to die. There was nothing 'accidental' about it.

Go back and read Patsy's interview...the thread.."PR'S Interview. Patsy's own words were that when she told John that JB was missing, and even after reading the note..he was calm, cool and collected. She says this more than once. When John brought JB's body up from the basement....Linda Arndt described him as being calm....not crying. There's your calm and cool murderer, right there.