Forensic evidence

[JMO8778]

Go back and read Patsy's interview...the thread.."PR'S Interview. Patsy's own words were that when she told John that JB was missing, and even after reading the note..he was calm, cool and collected. She says this more than once. When John brought JB's body up from the basement....Linda Arndt described him as being calm....not crying. There's your calm and cool murderer, right there.

it makes you wonder,was her death a relief to him somehow,as she could no longer talk?

 

[Ames]

Yes,I think he is likely the one who ended her life with the ligature strangling.Whether he thought her already dead,I don't know.
But I do think Patsy inflicted the initial damage,ie-the head wound.I do question if it was over toileting issues though..I think it's possible she did it out of jealousy of JB,esp if JR was sexually abusing her.
That reminds me of her 'I don't feel pretty' comment.Who would have told her that?? A jealous Patsy?

I agree. But, I do think it was over a bed wetting/soiling incident.

 

[Ames]

it makes you wonder,was her death a relief to him somehow,as she could no longer talk?

Sure it was, I read a post either here, or over at FFJ, that said that John looked more relaxed in his interviews now, that Patsy has gone. I am sure he breathed a huge sigh of relief.....(WHEW!!!)

 

[JMO8778]

I agree. But, I do think it was over a bed wetting/soiling incident.

I don't rule that out,I really don't.
I do think JB was being molested, but if it played into her murder and how much so if it did,I don't know.

 

[Ames]

I don't rule that out,I really don't.
I do think JB was being molested, but if it played into her murder and how much so if it did,I don't know.

I am still on the fence about the molestation.

(Did you get my answer to the PM that you sent me?? I PM'd you back, did you get it?)

 

[JMO8778]

I am still on the fence about the molestation.

(Did you get my answer to the PM that you sent me?? I PM'd you back, did you get it?)

yes,I replied just now,thx so much
There are a few things that make me think she was being molested,(possibly by more than one person? JAR and /or PR's father too?)..JR trying to account for his underwear and clothes fibers in JB's room near her bed,the word incest being looked up (ST didn't write it like he thought it was staged),the pics of her found in the basement (that were *made in the basement,for that matter)...needing probable cause to search for child ,and I have read it speculated that the piece of black sheet metal taken as evidence could have had a hole in the middle of it to be used as a camera.
Also JB went to see the nurse 2x on a Mon. that month.(Why Mondays?) Then there is the questioning of PR about molestation that may have occured when she was growing up(so did she think incest was ok?),and them something about a book on the subject that was given to PR by her dad,the person who said JB seemed 'different' from then on when she returned from a trip,the fact PR had cancer and a hyst. w. no hormone replacement, and saying to LHP she wasn't interested in sex anymore;PR dressing JB up to look like a 20 yo in the pageants..I've often thought that looks like it's directed at one person ..was it??? I rem. reading an expert said that too.Was PR trying to keep JR at home and away from the blond b**** down the st that she told a friend about(I think it was it PW?).And then the experts,(I know some are divided on it) that think she was a victim of sexual abuse.And is there a non-sexual reason for JR's fibers to be found in JB's vag. area? Was she just being wiped down for the staging,or was there more to it?
And also JB crying and saying she didn't feel pretty on the 23rd,as well as the weird 911 call SS relied thru the intercom to LE about,instead of opening the door.What was she hiding that was going on? And why wasn't she in fear of the Small FF when the R's came to live w them?
And then I think it was speculated there was child on AG computers,which may or may not be true.Possibly it is though.
Last thing I can think of is JB talking about the secret Santa visit after xmas,(JR called himself Santa in DOI),and the q's asked about the Santa suit found in the basement.Why ask if it wasn't relevant??
I haven't seen the video of JB w the sax, but I read SD's link about the expert saying it wasn't just scratching,so I don't know what to think about that.
PR and JR both seemed to have something on each other that prevented the other from talking,although I think money and image was a large part of it,but was there something more??
I know none of it is conclusive evidence, but when the pieces are put together I think it overall points to her being molested.There is likely more,but off the top of my head,that's all I can think of right now.

 

[Ames]

yes,I replied just now,thx so much
There are a few things that make me think she was being molested,(possibly by more than one person? JAR and /or PR's father too?)..JR trying to account for his underwear and clothes fibers in JB's room near her bed,the word incest being looked up (ST didn't write it like he thought it was staged),the pics of her found in the basement (that were *made in the basement,for that matter)...needing probable cause to search for child ,and I have read it speculated that the piece of black sheet metal taken as evidence could have had a hole in the middle of it to be used as a camera.
Also JB went to see the nurse 2x on a Mon. that month.(Why Mondays?) Then there is the questioning of PR about molestation that may have occured when she was growing up(so did she think incest was ok?),and them something about a book on the subject that was given to PR by her dad,the person who said JB seemed 'different' from then on when she returned from a trip,the fact PR had cancer and a hyst. w. no hormone replacement, and saying to LHP she wasn't interested in sex anymore;PR dressing JB up to look like a 20 yo in the pageants..I've often thought that looks like it's directed at one person ..was it??? I rem. reading an expert said that too.Was PR trying to keep JR at home and away from the blond b**** down the st that she told a friend about(I think it was it PW?).And then the experts,(I know some are divided on it) that think she was a victim of sexual abuse.And is there a non-sexual reason for JR's fibers to be found in JB's vag. area? Was she just being wiped down for the staging,or was there more to it?
And also JB crying and saying she didn't feel pretty on the 23rd,as well as the weird 911 call SS relied thru the intercom to LE about,instead of opening the door.What was she hiding that was going on? And why wasn't she in fear of the Small FF when the R's came to live w them?
And then I think it was speculated there was child on AG computers,which may or may not be true.Possibly it is though.
Last thing I can think of is JB talking about the secret Santa visit after xmas,(JR called himself Santa in DOI),and the q's asked about the Santa suit found in the basement.Why ask if it wasn't relevant??
I haven't seen the video of JB w the sax, but I read SD's link about the expert saying it wasn't just scratching,so I don't know what to think about that.
PR and JR both seemed to have something on each other that prevented the other from talking,although I think money and image was a large part of it,but was there something more??
I know none of it is conclusive evidence, but when the pieces are put together I think it overall points to her being molested.There is likely more,but off the top of my head,that's all I can think of right now.

Thanks for taking the time to write this post. I didn't know about the black sheet metal with a hole that could have been used as a camera. I also didn't know that pictures of her were taken in the basement...I thought that they just found some pictures in the basement, I didn't realize that they were of JB TAKEN in the basement. If thats the case, that is a huge major red flag to me. Why would anyone take pictures of their child in the BASEMENT...that is just weird in and of itself.

 

[BBB167893]

Well for thousands of years people have believed in a forthcoming apocalypse and the appearance of the messiah. You are welcome to your belief but I tend to the view that the Ramsey money and influence counts for more than mere sympathy or naive credulity on Lou Smit's behalf. He was an experienced investigator, possibly more so than Steve Thomas, yet he went on to invent a homicide scenario that had no basis in fact, all fabricated to wrap around the Ramsey claim that an intruder killed their daughter, I call that working for the Ramsey's!

I agree. If it walks like a duck...

 

[Toltec]

Go back and read Patsy's interview...the thread.."PR'S Interview. Patsy's own words were that when she told John that JB was missing, and even after reading the note..he was calm, cool and collected. She says this more than once. When John brought JB's body up from the basement....Linda Arndt described him as being calm....not crying. There's your calm and cool murderer, right there.

He is said to be crying...looking around to see if anyone was looking...but according to Linda Arndt, he did not shed one tear.

I think he cried himself out in the early am...then had to compose himself as a father waiting for a call from the kidnapper.

Same with Patsy...she never went to bed that night. Her histrionics are all acting ala Susan Lucci. She eyeballed Officer French as he came up from the basement...waiting for the Officer to inform the two that he had found JonBenet. Ooops...

John thinks to himself that maybe JonBenet is hidden too far back from the wine cellar, so he goes down there and moves her up a few feet. That is probably why Fleet White did not see her earlier that morning.

 

[DeeDee249]

He is said to be crying...looking around to see if anyone was looking...but according to Linda Arndt, he did not shed one tear.

I think he cried himself out in the early am...then had to compose himself as a father waiting for a call from the kidnapper.

Same with Patsy...she never went to bed that night. Her histrionics are all acting ala Susan Lucci. She eyeballed Officer French as he came up from the basement...waiting for the Officer to inform the two that he had found JonBenet. Ooops...

John thinks to himself that maybe JonBenet is hidden too far back from the wine cellar, so he goes down there and moves her up a few feet. That is probably why Fleet White did not see her earlier that morning.

That's a good point. That would certainly explain why FW didn't see her when he looked in. Might explain the arms in that position over her head and the abrasions/scratches on the back of her legs,too (she may have been dragged).
Of course, though, a father who was REALLY waiting for a call from kidnappers wouldn't disappear for an hour to GET THE MAIL.

 

[JMO8778]

Thanks for taking the time to write this post. I didn't know about the black sheet metal with a hole that could have been used as a camera. I also didn't know that pictures of her were taken in the basement...I thought that they just found some pictures in the basement, I didn't realize that they were of JB TAKEN in the basement. If thats the case, that is a huge major red flag to me. Why would anyone take pictures of their child in the BASEMENT...that is just weird in and of itself.

I'm going to look for that interview,(unless anyone knows which one it is rightoffhand),where PR was asked if she knew of any pics of JB taken IN the basement,not just that they were found there.

 

[JMO8778]

This is from PR's '98 interview:



21 THOMAS HANEY: Did you take some
22 photographs of JonBenet in the basement laundry
23 room?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: You had presents in
0186
1 the basement laundry room, right?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: So you wrapped
4 presents in the basement laundry room, right?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: So you were down in
7 the basement laundry room pretty often?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Depending on what
9 time of year it was, yeah, uh-hum.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: And do you remember
11 photographs being -- photographs of JonBenet
12 being in there?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Taken of her in the
14 laundry room?
15 TRIP DeMUTH: No, no. Photographs
16 of her located in the laundry room?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, in the laundry
18 room, oh. I don't know, there was a bunch of
19 stuff, I mean wrapping stuff and everything. I
20 don't remember any photographs.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Is there any reason
22 why there would be photographs of JonBenet
23 located in the laundry room?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Were there --
25 I mean, did somebody find them there?
0187
1 TRIP DeMUTH: If there were, would
2 that be out of place for you?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: It would seem to be
4 out of place. I kept wrapping materials and
5 sometimes I worked, wrapping station, Christmas
6 paper and --
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Would -- who else had
8 access to the laundry room, who else would go in
9 there? I know everybody would have access, but
10 who else would use it? Would the boys play in
11 there? Would John go down there?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean anybody
13 could, but I mean the boys could come down and
14 go in the train room, we had the train set up.
15 In the far back in through there, you know. Not
16 in the laundry, really, area.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Did anybody besides
18 you use that laundry room?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Sometimes Linda
20 would wash, if we were washing comforters or
21 something, because those were big heavy-duty
22 laundry machines, she'd take the things in
23 there, rugs and things, and wash them down
24 there.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
0188
1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall
2 taking a photo of her down there?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
4 THOMAS HANEY: If she was doing
5 something really cutesy or something, would you
6 maybe run and get the camera, take one of her?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Of her in the
8 laundry room?
9 THOMAS HANEY: Uh-hum.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

 

[UKGuy]

This is from PR's '98 interview:



21 THOMAS HANEY: Did you take some
22 photographs of JonBenet in the basement laundry
23 room?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: You had presents in
0186
1 the basement laundry room, right?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: So you wrapped
4 presents in the basement laundry room, right?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: So you were down in
7 the basement laundry room pretty often?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Depending on what
9 time of year it was, yeah, uh-hum.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: And do you remember
11 photographs being -- photographs of JonBenet
12 being in there?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Taken of her in the
14 laundry room?
15 TRIP DeMUTH: No, no. Photographs
16 of her located in the laundry room?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, in the laundry
18 room, oh. I don't know, there was a bunch of
19 stuff, I mean wrapping stuff and everything. I
20 don't remember any photographs.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Is there any reason
22 why there would be photographs of JonBenet
23 located in the laundry room?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Were there --
25 I mean, did somebody find them there?
0187
1 TRIP DeMUTH: If there were, would
2 that be out of place for you?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: It would seem to be
4 out of place. I kept wrapping materials and
5 sometimes I worked, wrapping station, Christmas
6 paper and --
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Would -- who else had
8 access to the laundry room, who else would go in
9 there? I know everybody would have access, but
10 who else would use it? Would the boys play in
11 there? Would John go down there?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean anybody
13 could, but I mean the boys could come down and
14 go in the train room, we had the train set up.
15 In the far back in through there, you know. Not
16 in the laundry, really, area.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Did anybody besides
18 you use that laundry room?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Sometimes Linda
20 would wash, if we were washing comforters or
21 something, because those were big heavy-duty
22 laundry machines, she'd take the things in
23 there, rugs and things, and wash them down
24 there.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
0188
1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall
2 taking a photo of her down there?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
4 THOMAS HANEY: If she was doing
5 something really cutesy or something, would you
6 maybe run and get the camera, take one of her?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Of her in the
8 laundry room?
9 THOMAS HANEY: Uh-hum.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

JMO8778,
And no then means that the photographs discovered are significant, so do they constitute someones personal collection, are there any more, hence the search warrants issued for child ?

 

[Albert18]

Trip DeMuth is asking if some photographs were placed in the laundry room.

Thomas Haney is asking if pictures were actually taken in the laundry room.

Which is it? Or is it both?

You can see Patsy trying to clarify what she is really being asked.

I wouldn't place much emphasis on this exchange. JonBenet wasn't killed with a camera.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

That's just weird. Most people consider the background when taking pictures of their kid, because they want the pictures to look nice for display or giving to relatives.

If it's obvious that these pictures were taken in the laundry room, then the laundry room must be in the background behind JonBenet. Why would anyone want to take pictures of their child in the laundry room? I could see it if she was doing something really cute, like if she just learned how to blow a bubble with bubble gum, but why would they already have a camera in the laundry room, and why wouldn't they step somewhere where there's something less laundry-ish in the background?

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
And no then means that the photographs discovered are significant, so do they constitute someones personal collection, are there any more, hence the search warrants issued for child ?

right,I believe so;I've always thought they had a more specific reason to do a search for child ,other than what was found upon autopsy.

 

[JMO8778]

Trip DeMuth is asking if some photographs were placed in the laundry room.

Thomas Haney is asking if pictures were actually taken in the laundry room.

Which is it? Or is it both?

You can see Patsy trying to clarify what she is really being asked.

I wouldn't place much emphasis on this exchange. JonBenet wasn't killed with a camera.

that's b/c they're trying to clarify 2 different things...1-did PR ever see or notice any pics of her in the laundry room,and 2-did she ever take any.
Obviously there were pics of her taken in the laundry room.
They're trying to clarify if she ever noticed any and if she ever took any.She is also asked specifically about JR being down there.
While it's unlikely she was killed w/ a camera,they're trying to determine if this has any relevance to her death or is connected to it somehow.

 

[JMO8778]

That's just weird. Most people consider the background when taking pictures of their kid, because they want the pictures to look nice for display or giving to relatives.

If it's obvious that these pictures were taken in the laundry room, then the laundry room must be in the background behind JonBenet. Why would anyone want to take pictures of their child in the laundry room? I could see it if she was doing something really cute, like if she just learned how to blow a bubble with bubble gum, but why would they already have a camera in the laundry room, and why wouldn't they step somewhere where there's something less laundry-ish in the background?

Indeed,it points to something sinister,IMO.

 

[Solace]

that's b/c they're trying to clarify 2 different things...1-did PR ever see or notice any pics of her in the laundry room,and 2-did she ever take any.
Obviously there were pics of her taken in the laundry room.
They're trying to clarify if she ever noticed any and if she ever took any.She is also asked specifically about JR being down there.
While it's unlikely she was killed w/ a camera,they're trying to determine if this has any relevance to her death or is connected to it somehow.

I am not so sure about that. I understand there were pictures of her found in the basement and that could be innocent. She had her picture taken all the time. He could have been fishing and lying at the same time to see her reaction to the question. No?

 

[JMO8778]

I am not so sure about that. I understand there were pictures of her found in the basement and that could be innocent. She had her picture taken all the time. He could have been fishing and lying at the same time to see her reaction to the question. No?

Could be,but then Patsy denies all knowledge of anything,(like she does w / most items in the house related to the investigation),and saying that seems out of place.Why not just say,'could be,we do take a lot of pics of her,maybe some made their way to the basement,since we use if for storage'.She's in denial mode again,which I see as a red flag.Plus,she didn't ask about what was found,how JB was posing,and most importantly..what was she wearing? Was it the same clothes she went to bed in the night of the murder?