FOUND DECEASED - WA - Lindsey Baum, 10, McCleary, 26 June 2009 #2

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If all they had was the dog's interest, that's not always enough to get a warrant. Many judges require additional evidence.
It certainly would have been good to hunt down the owner and ask permission.... I agree, it's not enough to submit the dog's findings...but they might have been able to get consent via a warrant somehow. It wouldn't have hurt to try. What if she was imprisoned there..or evidence was still there? Other than stats to encourage the idea she was killed within a short time of going missing, at this point we have no idea how long she was kept prior to her remnant showing up...unless the tiniest remnant revealed growth somehow. The worst is that the first two searches just after she went missing did not continue "past the bridge" out of town on North Summit RD...she could have been in a ditch, injured, for all they knew--or even lost, disoriented, hiding, etc and not responding to searchers' calls. One asks WHY?? It's just not right that they didn't search harder while trails were fresh. By this time not only the county sheriff's but the FBI was involved--so cost was not an issue, most likely. Upon returning to McCleary I was actually shocked, after many years, to see again just how small a search area it all is from Maple to Mommsen to return to Summit/3rd and up to the bridge. Why not at least call in a second team of dogs in those initial, early hours, if there was fatigue? This was an emergency, not a cold case. A fundraising group who gathered enough cash to sponsor a search eight months later should not have had to spend their funds to do such a thing--and it's clear they did not waste money to find a competent handler and well-trained dogs--but didn't have the backing of a law enforcement agency to help them.
 
It certainly would have been good to hunt down the owner and ask permission.... I agree, it's not enough to submit the dog's findings...but they might have been able to get consent via a warrant somehow. It wouldn't have hurt to try. What if she was imprisoned there..or evidence was still there? Other than stats to encourage the idea she was killed within a short time of going missing, at this point we have no idea how long she was kept prior to her remnant showing up...unless the tiniest remnant revealed growth somehow. The worst is that the first two searches just after she went missing did not continue "past the bridge" out of town on North Summit RD...she could have been in a ditch, injured, for all they knew--or even lost, disoriented, hiding, etc and not responding to searchers' calls. One asks WHY?? It's just not right that they didn't search harder while trails were fresh. By this time not only the county sheriff's but the FBI was involved--so cost was not an issue, most likely. Upon returning to McCleary I was actually shocked, after many years, to see again just how small a search area it all is from Maple to Mommsen to return to Summit/3rd and up to the bridge. Why not at least call in a second team of dogs in those initial, early hours, if there was fatigue? This was an emergency, not a cold case. A fundraising group who gathered enough cash to sponsor a search eight months later should not have had to spend their funds to do such a thing--and it's clear they did not waste money to find a competent handler and well-trained dogs--but didn't have the backing of a law enforcement agency to help them.
As usual I forgot to mention one more thing: asking the owner, who would probably deny permission for a search, would point out a possible suspect far sooner.
 
This is such a difficult case and I feel like we just won't find information be any means if no warrants are placed--and for all we and the media know, they haven't. So trophies are probably out. If vehicles don't yield evidence, then what? Those can be extremely good for evidence that can't be entirely cleaned away. If those aren't found and given forensic search, then what? Ultimately, I truly wish that another search or talented individual of some sort could at least find a different area on Manastash where the majority of LB's remains are. If it's only that achievement that would be something. To present only a single "remnant/remain" is just horrible to understand and it might mean a great deal to Melissa and family--not to mention the community. She wasn't an adult soldier who chose to go to war and stepped on a land mine here...she may still have a grave of some sort elsewhere. That's the least we can hope for, I believe. Hopefully when the pandemic and chaos wanes another search of the area, performed by qualified individuals, with support from others who are less-skilled, will be done. I have a strong feeling that it could never have been a hiker with a "fresh" cadaver hiking out there. This was either remains held elsewhere for a while, or a set of remains brought up at different times..or transportation of the living CHILD herself to a particular spot...if it's a hiker or single hunter. I'd be continuing to look for an SUV or ATV owner/borrower who knows or knew the area...or even a horse owner.
 
There was a fire at some time around 2009 near the much lower down trail head, right? Near the top of the trail that holds a box that holds the trail notebooks. Does anybody know if there were wildfires (severe to mild) higher-up near where the remnant was found between 2009 to 2022? The area is always full of fires each summer, more or less, but it would be good to consider how that might influence how remains might be dispersed..perhaps? How might that carry or destroy pieces if that's likely to happen? Depressing to think about. Ellensburg also has incredibly strong winds at time, even all summer long, that could whip up debris and continue to encourage fires. It's quite weird how constant the winds are year-round--something that would make me choose to never live there.
 
It certainly would have been good to hunt down the owner and ask permission.... I agree, it's not enough to submit the dog's findings...but they might have been able to get consent via a warrant somehow. It wouldn't have hurt to try. What if she was imprisoned there..or evidence was still there? Other than stats to encourage the idea she was killed within a short time of going missing, at this point we have no idea how long she was kept prior to her remnant showing up...unless the tiniest remnant revealed growth somehow. The worst is that the first two searches just after she went missing did not continue "past the bridge" out of town on North Summit RD...she could have been in a ditch, injured, for all they knew--or even lost, disoriented, hiding, etc and not responding to searchers' calls. One asks WHY?? It's just not right that they didn't search harder while trails were fresh. By this time not only the county sheriff's but the FBI was involved--so cost was not an issue, most likely. Upon returning to McCleary I was actually shocked, after many years, to see again just how small a search area it all is from Maple to Mommsen to return to Summit/3rd and up to the bridge. Why not at least call in a second team of dogs in those initial, early hours, if there was fatigue? This was an emergency, not a cold case. A fundraising group who gathered enough cash to sponsor a search eight months later should not have had to spend their funds to do such a thing--and it's clear they did not waste money to find a competent handler and well-trained dogs--but didn't have the backing of a law enforcement agency to help them.

All true. My point was they might have tried and been turned down. We don't know.

And refusal to have cops tramping around on your property doesn't make you a suspect.
 
All true. My point was they might have tried and been turned down. We don't know.

And refusal to have cops tramping around on your property doesn't make you a suspect.
I agree to that, but it would increase scrutiny when a middle aged male is refusing entrance to his empty property.. You are absolutely right. If they were turned down, they could have questioned the possible suspect to see if he had an alibi, if he knew of Lindsey, knew Lindsey herself, etc. Many of you have far more experience at this: can the public or the family finally get their hands on the police report for this now that the remain has been found? Would this still be in the files of county or state police, &/or would it include extra policies due to FBI involvement? That would be partially a way to see if the owner was questioned or denied the ability to do a search of the area on Oak Meadows RD.
 
Does anybody know of cold or previous cases wherein a very small amount of remains was obtained, as in this case? Were those cases ever solved? My true crime university education is more of a serial killer based kind: so you have a multiple graves site like with 2 groups of Ted Bundy's Washington State victims--finding one partial remain was not as difficult a case due to more remains from other victims, as horrible as the chances were of finding any real connection to the perpetrator other than slim witness descriptions and other circumstantial evidence. Watching and reading about cold cases these days leads to a final solution based on DNA solutions (finally being able to catch somebody on CODIS or by familial DNA). What can be done in LB's situation? Another search? I can wish that certain warrants were served for particular persons' properties but that seems less and less likely to ever reveal anything by this point. So: what do you all know out there? Search your memories!
 
Does anybody know of cold or previous cases wherein a very small amount of remains was obtained, as in this case? Were those cases ever solved? My true crime university education is more of a serial killer based kind: so you have a multiple graves site like with 2 groups of Ted Bundy's Washington State victims--finding one partial remain was not as difficult a case due to more remains from other victims, as horrible as the chances were of finding any real connection to the perpetrator other than slim witness descriptions and other circumstantial evidence. Watching and reading about cold cases these days leads to a final solution based on DNA solutions (finally being able to catch somebody on CODIS or by familial DNA). What can be done in LB's situation? Another search? I can wish that certain warrants were served for particular persons' properties but that seems less and less likely to ever reveal anything by this point. So: what do you all know out there? Search your memories!

Your question reminded me of the Carole Packman case (look into it if you haven't heard) where there was a conviction without a body.

This relates to Helen's Law in UK, where Ian Simms was convicted of murder of Helen McCourt despite no body and him pleading not guilty. He was convicted off circumstantial and DNA evidence alone. Killers in UK who do not tell the location of body are usually never eligible for parole.


https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/n...y-of-murdered-carole-packman-back-helens-law/
 
Your question reminded me of the Carole Packman case (look into it if you haven't heard) where there was a conviction without a body.

This relates to Helen's Law in UK, where Ian Simms was convicted of murder of Helen McCourt despite no body and him pleading not guilty. He was convicted off circumstantial and DNA evidence alone. Killers in UK who do not tell the location of body are usually never eligible for parole.


No body, no parole: family of murdered Carole Packman back 'Helen's Law'
I think in Lindsey's case there may never be DNA evidence. I guess I should revise my question. Though there is a remain and suggested burial area, there is no other hair, fiber, clothing (or DNA) evidence, nor a larger set of remains to determine cause of death. Does anybody know of cases like this that were solved, nearly solved, and whether it was possible to get a conviction without a plea bargain?
 
I was just wondering if there is any way they can tell the age of the person that died by their bones? To know if she was killed right away or what might have happened to her after she was kidnapped.
 
I was just wondering if there is any way they can tell the age of the person that died by their bones? To know if she was killed right away or what might have happened to her after she was kidnapped.
Does anybody know what eventually happened to the skull fragment that was recovered. Did they give it to Lindsey's mom?
 
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I was referring to the white suv truck thing in the gas station video they are talking about and showing pictures on the podcast website. This type of vehicle is supposedly known for sex trafficing from what they say on the podcast.
 
To demonstrate the demons we have at home as I mentioned earlier: Here's how you can see the number of current sex offenders in any given city in Grays Harbor County, WA. I have to say the city of Hoquiam has far, far less living there now but it is a small town and the number is still atrocious. I haven't had time to refresh my facts elsewhere yet but any of these towns are good to choose from on a search:
Hoquiam, Aberdeen, Montesano, McCleary, Elma, Ocean Shores, just for starters. Remember this is only for Grays Harbor, not Mason County, on which part of Paul Bieker's property borders or rests, from what I understand.

Click the rectangle at the top of the page above the text that reads: "The Grays Harbor County Sheriff's Office has established this website to provide information to the public about Level II, Level III and transient registered sex offenders who are living in our community."

Welcome to Grays Harbor County
 
I was referring to the white suv truck thing in the gas station video they are talking about and showing pictures on the podcast website. This type of vehicle is supposedly known for sex trafficing from what they say on the podcast.

<modsnip: Discussing non POI>

Funny, I was thinking, how many people actually have a white car, truck, suv, etc, while I was listening to that podcast in my car. I started to count for the rest of my drive home on the same highway that goes past McCleary and counted over 30, and also saw that some light silvers could be considered white if seen at a distance in certain lights, especially with the weather we sometimes have here. I didn't count white service or commercial vans. I do wonder if PJB had a service van in his possession ever, for work. That would be something cops could certainly check on at his former workplace. What color van or other vehicle might that workplace have had or lent out to employees for weekend work (seeing as LB disappeared on a Friday night).
 
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I was referring to the white suv truck thing in the gas station video they are talking about and showing pictures on the podcast website. This type of vehicle is supposedly known for sex trafficing from what they say on the podcast.
You mentioned a brown van at the gas station?
 
Yes, under the *advertiser censored* we Wanna Know section of the podcast website. Click on the gas station video in The White Car section and at the end of the video a brown van pulls into the gas station.

https://truthintheshadow.org/*advertiser censored*-we-wanna-know/
 
I was wondering: could you find out when the charter boat slammer opened for business? Write them on FB? That might answer or not answer some questions.

Other thoughts: the nature of tourism in Washington State after living here for 20 years...
1) Nearly everybody who lives at or very near the Washington coast all year would love to or will definitely go to, every year, especially in Summer to: either (a) Eastern or Central Washington in the Summer (primarily Wenatchee which is east of Ellensburg) or (b) down to the Oregon Coast, which is far superior in almost every way from dramatic rock formations to shopping to food. (2) Nearly everybody who lives in Central or Eastern WA as well as Seattle/Puget Sound can't wait to go for a fun vacay at one of these three, if they are traveling in state: 1) Ocean Shores, 2) Long Beach, or 3) Westport. They are the most common destinations other than just going to Seattle itself if you don't already live there. Wesport faces Ocean Shores from across the "bay"--it takes a while to travel by road between the two. Both are basically sand spit type areas that jut out on either side of the bay. You can sometimes see the lights of Westport from Ocean Shores and vice versa at night if it's very clear out...which is very, very rare. In addition: most people who don't live on the actual coast towns of Ocean Shores and Westport go to those towns for their vacations. It's a day trip and rather boring coastline. If you go further North up the coast highway you can reach after a long drive the Olympic National Park beaches, which are considerably better, but if you don't camp there is hardly anywhere to stay. Most people living in the inland towns only go to the beaches of O Shores and Westport for things like 4th of July fireworks (Fire on the Water) in Ocean City, or for clamming during different parts of the year.

If my experience as a lifelong tourist in the Pacific NW explains anything to outsiders: hitting a coast town is a blast if you can afford, once in a blue moon, to go on a whale watching, educational voyage for kids, or fishing charter boat--it appears that the boat slammer place is one of them. One should always try to do it at least once unless you have horrible sea-sickness. So again, not uncommon for a Washingtonian who does or did indeed live in Ellensburg area to go to one of the three major coast towns in the state and go charter fishing or touring etc. Westport may be the best for that, in my opinion, because they are or were the place where the real fishing and crabbing setup is, whereas Ocean Shores doesn't....neither seems to have any real hope of catching views of whales...that's more of an Oregon coast thing to do.

The highways going to Ellensburg or Yakima, etc, on the beginning or end of a weekend are just as bad during the peak times of the summer on the Washington Coastal highways--especially on the three day weekends or Harley Weekend in Ocean Shores, etc. So, though they described the highways into Ellensburg being so overloaded by Western Washingtonians, the same is true along the coast of course. After hunting season is over, though, mostly people during the fall or winter will head to Leavenworth if they want to vacation over on the central/eastern side of WA state. Leavenworth is the thing families in places like Grays Harbor county will save and pool money for ALL YEAR so they can hopefully go there at Christmastime. It's outrageously expensive but lovely at Christmas: a faux Bavarian village that puts on plays and musicals all year but Christmas-themed plays and musicals indoors in the Winter, a Nutcracker museum, lots of German food (big roasted hocks of ham, etc), a gentle rope pull to get you back up a snowy hill so you can keep sledding, areas out in the idyllic country around the area with sleigh rides, the entire town lit up at night for a couple of months after Oktoberfest. It's a lovely thing. Terribly hot in the summer, but still it is a sign that people on the WA coast can't WAIT to get out of Dodge and go East to the recreation areas and tourism there if they can't find time or money to go elsewhere. We are all starved for Vitamin D and need sun so badly that it's like a drug...and though I hate the heat, a ton of people can't get enough of places like Ellensburg,,.until lately when it's been death to be outside there over and over again. People there: can't wait to finally get some shade and hear the waves, cool down, etc. The grass is always greener.

If you look closely at a few "somebodies" who grew up and lived on The Harbor (and that includes the more inland towns like McCleary), they MAY be very, very likely to head eastwards than some regularly, all of their lives...or dreamed of doing such things all of their lives...and some of them may be just as or far more familiar with the wilderness areas in and around Cle Elum, Ellensburg, Wenatchee, etc. Not my cup of tea but it's the real deal for so many of my surrounding Harborites.
 
Yes, under the **** we Wanna Know section of the podcast website. Click on the gas station video in The White Car section and at the end of the video a brown van pulls into the gas station.

https://truthintheshadow.org/****-we-wanna-know/
I'll look at it again. Think I've seen them so many times over the years that I don't even notice anything but the white vehicles. It was on the news so much, or at least I recorded the news and rewatched it a zillion times to see if I could eke anything out of it. A long time ago but I had family and neighbors with kids, so it was really, really important to try to get answers asap. Same thing when many years later Isaac J Gusman attempted to abduct a woman around here as well. They caught his electric blue vehicle on all of the cameras..and that made it oh so hard to find him and his electric blue self. There's no chance it was him with LB...he was an absolute novice it seems. Which was good for the young lady in that instance.
 

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