I agree neither the family nor the cyclist were suppose to be at that location. It just happened by coincidence that the family and the cyclist were in that spot at the same time. The cyclist was on the road and the family stopped for the elder daughter to go with her father and look at flowers (so its been reported) as they knew the vegetation of the area from previous years. This is something else and not a hit IMO.
France - 5 shot, 4 dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications, 2012 #2
- Thread starter Drella
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Thank you, 5W's. When the police arrested a group of people who reportedly were running a murder-for-hire business, the police found physical evidence that may connect them to the Alpine murders. This was reported/speculated in the press. The possible connection to the bicyclist is found with the June, 2021, article about the factory owner that wanted to hire the hit men to eliminate a very vocal union organizer. The 2015 article about the bicyclist indicates he was in conflict with a business.
Taking the June, 2021, story of the contract on the union organizer as developing a pattern and chronology of the killers, if there is possible physical evidence to connect the hit men to the Alpine murders, and the bicyclist was in conflict with a business, then the hit men may have been tracking the man to eliminate him on contract. New information may require a reassessment of earlier theories.
When a deliberate murder looks random, the appearance of randomness creates analytical confusion. The wrong place, wrong time secondary killings of the Iraqi-British family was a major diversion. By chance alone, the personal history of the British family with previous connections to the regime of Saddam Hussein sent people down rabbit holes of analytical estimates and speculations. (And, the speculations made sense to me, too, for a time.) Genuine professionals can make almost anything look random.
When this story is finally resolved, it will become the source material for books and movies.
Taking the June, 2021, story of the contract on the union organizer as developing a pattern and chronology of the killers, if there is possible physical evidence to connect the hit men to the Alpine murders, and the bicyclist was in conflict with a business, then the hit men may have been tracking the man to eliminate him on contract. New information may require a reassessment of earlier theories.
When a deliberate murder looks random, the appearance of randomness creates analytical confusion. The wrong place, wrong time secondary killings of the Iraqi-British family was a major diversion. By chance alone, the personal history of the British family with previous connections to the regime of Saddam Hussein sent people down rabbit holes of analytical estimates and speculations. (And, the speculations made sense to me, too, for a time.) Genuine professionals can make almost anything look random.
When this story is finally resolved, it will become the source material for books and movies.
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Curious_in_NC
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Thanks. That's one of the most interesting insights I've read on this bizarre crime. It seems most likely it was either (a) a random lunatic, or (b) one or the other party was targeted, the other was collateral damage. You make a strong case for (b). But I'm not holding my breath. The French LE and media have been quick to declare this mystery solved before, for example when the mystery motorcyclist was found, and it all turned out to be wrong.
Curious_in_NC, thank you. Like you, I'm not "holding my breath." I am simply laying out my analytical model for clarity of how I came to the assessment. As you mention, this case has been pronounced solved before, only to be continued....
What amazes me is the press reporting that includes the Freemasons, and that the hit men were intelligence professionals doing freelancing for a private security firm. This is like a Dan Brown novel.
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Let's hope any new information will solve this case. As you both have said not to hold one's breath, I agree.
Channel 4 Sunday https://www.channel4.com/programmes/murder-in-the-alps
Sorry it’s paywall but very interesting What went wrong in the French Alps murder investigation – by the detective who saw it all
Basically he says the French were so convinced on their theory that the families circumstances in the U.K. were the “answer” that it failed to look at other possibilities
Preston believes the murder inquiry was hampered by a series of blunders by French investigators, who apparently failed to secure vital pieces of evidence and, in his view, spent years going down blind alleys. He claims that instead of keeping an open mind about who might have pulled the trigger, and why, they fixated on a single theory, eventually abandoned, meaning the trail had gone cold by the time they considered alternatives.
Maillaud’s belief that the al-Hillis had been the victims of a contract killing was heightened by another mystery: Saad and Iqbal’s passports were missing. Had they been taken by a hitman as proof that he had got the right targets? No. Almost two years after the murders, Saad’s passport was found in the pocket of his jacket, which had been bagged up without being properly searched.
Ballistics reports revealed another disturbing fact: Mollier had been shot no fewer than seven times, more than any other victim. When Preston reconstructed the sequence of events, he became convinced that Mollier was shot first, and that after turning his gun on the al-Hillis, the killer went back and shot Mollier again, in the face. Had Mollier been the intended target all along?
To me it was very clear the killer wanted Mollier dead,’ says Preston. It is this theory that ‘fits nicely’ with the circumstances, he says.
Mollier, a divorced factory worker, had started a relationship with Claire Schutz, a local whose family owned a lucrative pharmacy business and who had recently given birth to his child. Mollier was known to go cycling in the area, and may well have mentioned to someone where he was going that day.
(It’s a long good article but as paywall I can only post a few bits)
Basically he says the French were so convinced on their theory that the families circumstances in the U.K. were the “answer” that it failed to look at other possibilities
Preston believes the murder inquiry was hampered by a series of blunders by French investigators, who apparently failed to secure vital pieces of evidence and, in his view, spent years going down blind alleys. He claims that instead of keeping an open mind about who might have pulled the trigger, and why, they fixated on a single theory, eventually abandoned, meaning the trail had gone cold by the time they considered alternatives.
Maillaud’s belief that the al-Hillis had been the victims of a contract killing was heightened by another mystery: Saad and Iqbal’s passports were missing. Had they been taken by a hitman as proof that he had got the right targets? No. Almost two years after the murders, Saad’s passport was found in the pocket of his jacket, which had been bagged up without being properly searched.
Ballistics reports revealed another disturbing fact: Mollier had been shot no fewer than seven times, more than any other victim. When Preston reconstructed the sequence of events, he became convinced that Mollier was shot first, and that after turning his gun on the al-Hillis, the killer went back and shot Mollier again, in the face. Had Mollier been the intended target all along?
To me it was very clear the killer wanted Mollier dead,’ says Preston. It is this theory that ‘fits nicely’ with the circumstances, he says.
Mollier, a divorced factory worker, had started a relationship with Claire Schutz, a local whose family owned a lucrative pharmacy business and who had recently given birth to his child. Mollier was known to go cycling in the area, and may well have mentioned to someone where he was going that day.
(It’s a long good article but as paywall I can only post a few bits)
ZaZara
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Claygate family murdered in Alps were not gunman's primary target, ex-Surrey Police detective says
The massacre of a Claygate family on holiday in the French Alps has baffled detectives for 10 years, and at one point led to the arrest of a Chessington man who is the brother of one of the victims. A decade later, the case is still unsolved and is the topic of a three-part Channel 4 documentary beginning on Sunday night (June 26).
The questions about the case are still numerous: Why was the family targeted? How did the mystery gunman track them down to the remote mountain spot near Lake Annecy they had driven to on a spontaneous trip? And what of the local cyclist shot dead alongside them?
Now a former detective on the case says the cyclist was the more likely intended target – with the British-Iraqi family killed as witnesses to his assassination. Ex-DCI Mark Preston was the senior investigating officer for Surrey Police on the murder of Saad al-Hilli, 50, his wife Iqbal, 47, and her mother Suhaila, 74.
Now Mark, who has since left the police, fears crucial lines of enquiry in the case were closed too soon. Ahead of a three-part documentary, Murder in the Alps, starting on Channel 4 on Sunday (June 26), he said: "Why were the al-Hillis killed? My view is that it was to cover and confuse any investigation, that Mollier was the target. That’s why the gunman used so many bullets. Whoever was in that car park was going to die."
(..)
Mark said: "With no motive against Saad or Iqbal being the target, and the evidence at the scene not suggesting the al-Hillis were the target, we’re then left with two theories: one is a lone gunman, or that Mollier was the target. I do think that the depth to which we delved into the al-Hillis got to the point where we could absolutely prove that they were not the targets. With Mollier, there were still questions."
(...)
"I think the gunman, in a sense, struck lucky in the amount of confusion caused by the make-up of the British-Iraqi family who happened to be on holiday. It massively helps the killer. They were shot in an execution-style, the daughter was attacked, and on the face of it anybody would imagine they were the intended targets, with Mollier being a witness, rather than taking out one individual and dispatching potentially four witnesses."
He hopes the documentary might prompt someone who knows what really happened to come forward. He added: "I was very surprised and disappointed we never got to thoroughly see the investigation against Mollier. There was a lot of reassurance from the French that they had undertaken a thorough investigation of Mollier being the intended target, but I never saw the documentary proof that that was the case. Certainly not to the same extent that we'd dealt with the al-Hillis.
"I think that time can be a critical factor in solving a crime like this. I feel somebody somewhere knows what happened. Time may prompt them to tell the police. Somebody’s guilt about two orphaned children, and the extraordinary stress to Zaid – who has lost his brother and been judged because he is of British-Iraqi ancestry – could prompt someone to do the right thing. That’s the hope."
BBM
I agree that the presence of the al Hilli family with their background did confuse the investigation since there was a lot to investigate about them. But I'm having trouble with the idea that they would have been killed as a cover-up. There are easier ways to kill a cyclist than shooting him, and no cover-up would be needed, nor would the perp have to leave a trail of bullet casings.
"Why were the al-Hillis killed? My view is that it was to cover and confuse any investigation, that Mollier was the target. That’s why the gunman used so many bullets. Whoever was in that car park was going to die."
This is an odd way of reasoning IMO. Imagine you are a killer, waiting for your target to pass by on a bike. (You cannot be sure he will take that road and there is no network at the top so no one can give you an alert, but that is a different story). A car full of people arrives at the spot, and you go: hey great way to confuse the investigation! I'll shoot them all! Oh, a little girl! BAM! Thanks heavens no other car came up this way because I've run out of bullets!
Eeh....
IMO this person would have been placed in secluded psychiatric care long ago.
The massacre of a Claygate family on holiday in the French Alps has baffled detectives for 10 years, and at one point led to the arrest of a Chessington man who is the brother of one of the victims. A decade later, the case is still unsolved and is the topic of a three-part Channel 4 documentary beginning on Sunday night (June 26).
The questions about the case are still numerous: Why was the family targeted? How did the mystery gunman track them down to the remote mountain spot near Lake Annecy they had driven to on a spontaneous trip? And what of the local cyclist shot dead alongside them?
Now a former detective on the case says the cyclist was the more likely intended target – with the British-Iraqi family killed as witnesses to his assassination. Ex-DCI Mark Preston was the senior investigating officer for Surrey Police on the murder of Saad al-Hilli, 50, his wife Iqbal, 47, and her mother Suhaila, 74.
Now Mark, who has since left the police, fears crucial lines of enquiry in the case were closed too soon. Ahead of a three-part documentary, Murder in the Alps, starting on Channel 4 on Sunday (June 26), he said: "Why were the al-Hillis killed? My view is that it was to cover and confuse any investigation, that Mollier was the target. That’s why the gunman used so many bullets. Whoever was in that car park was going to die."
(..)
Mark said: "With no motive against Saad or Iqbal being the target, and the evidence at the scene not suggesting the al-Hillis were the target, we’re then left with two theories: one is a lone gunman, or that Mollier was the target. I do think that the depth to which we delved into the al-Hillis got to the point where we could absolutely prove that they were not the targets. With Mollier, there were still questions."
(...)
"I think the gunman, in a sense, struck lucky in the amount of confusion caused by the make-up of the British-Iraqi family who happened to be on holiday. It massively helps the killer. They were shot in an execution-style, the daughter was attacked, and on the face of it anybody would imagine they were the intended targets, with Mollier being a witness, rather than taking out one individual and dispatching potentially four witnesses."
He hopes the documentary might prompt someone who knows what really happened to come forward. He added: "I was very surprised and disappointed we never got to thoroughly see the investigation against Mollier. There was a lot of reassurance from the French that they had undertaken a thorough investigation of Mollier being the intended target, but I never saw the documentary proof that that was the case. Certainly not to the same extent that we'd dealt with the al-Hillis.
"I think that time can be a critical factor in solving a crime like this. I feel somebody somewhere knows what happened. Time may prompt them to tell the police. Somebody’s guilt about two orphaned children, and the extraordinary stress to Zaid – who has lost his brother and been judged because he is of British-Iraqi ancestry – could prompt someone to do the right thing. That’s the hope."
BBM
I agree that the presence of the al Hilli family with their background did confuse the investigation since there was a lot to investigate about them. But I'm having trouble with the idea that they would have been killed as a cover-up. There are easier ways to kill a cyclist than shooting him, and no cover-up would be needed, nor would the perp have to leave a trail of bullet casings.
"Why were the al-Hillis killed? My view is that it was to cover and confuse any investigation, that Mollier was the target. That’s why the gunman used so many bullets. Whoever was in that car park was going to die."
This is an odd way of reasoning IMO. Imagine you are a killer, waiting for your target to pass by on a bike. (You cannot be sure he will take that road and there is no network at the top so no one can give you an alert, but that is a different story). A car full of people arrives at the spot, and you go: hey great way to confuse the investigation! I'll shoot them all! Oh, a little girl! BAM! Thanks heavens no other car came up this way because I've run out of bullets!
Eeh....
IMO this person would have been placed in secluded psychiatric care long ago.
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TootsieFootsie
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‘Blinkered’ French police failed on Alps murders case
The British detective who investigated four murders in the Alps in 2012 has criticised French police and the prosecutor for a catalogue of errors in the aftermath of the shooting.
Mollier was the intended target.
MIght be behind a paywall. Original article from The Times dated 26th June.
ZaZara
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‘Blinkered’ French police failed on Alps murders case
The British detective who investigated four murders in the Alps in 2012 has criticised French police and the prosecutor for a catalogue of errors in the aftermath of the shooting.amp.theaustralian.com.au
Mollier was the intended target.
MIght be behind a paywall. Original article from The Times dated 26th June.
Can you please quote the part where it says that Mollier was the intended target, because sofar in other reports, Mark Preston only says he has not seen the evidence that excludes Mollier as a target, there are still questions, which is not the same IMO.
https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/claygate-family-murdered-alps-unsolved-24321856
Mark said: "With no motive against Saad or Iqbal being the target, and the evidence at the scene not suggesting the al-Hillis were the target, we’re then left with two theories: one is a lone gunman, or that Mollier was the target.
I do think that the depth to which we delved into the al-Hillis got to the point where we could absolutely prove that they were not the targets. With Mollier, there were still questions."
BBM
TootsieFootsie
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"French police had always presented Saad as the target, but Preston, who took over the British investigation eight months after the shooting, believes Mollier was the intended victim, and the Hillis were shot as witnesses"
badgersmythe
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'This is jawdropping!' Murder in the Alps viewers stunned by case
Viewers of Channel 4's Murder in the Alps were shocked to learn Jim Thompson, the ex-husband of Iqbal al-Hilli, died on the same day as the killings in Annecy.
www.dailymail.co.uk
Cluesleuth
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She looks familiar'This is jawdropping!' Murder in the Alps viewers stunned by case
Viewers of Channel 4's Murder in the Alps were shocked to learn Jim Thompson, the ex-husband of Iqbal al-Hilli, died on the same day as the killings in Annecy.www.dailymail.co.uk
Cluesleuth
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I think the answer lies in Iraq and Iqbal's secret
ZaZara
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'This is jawdropping!' Murder in the Alps viewers stunned by case
Viewers of Channel 4's Murder in the Alps were shocked to learn Jim Thompson, the ex-husband of Iqbal al-Hilli, died on the same day as the killings in Annecy.www.dailymail.co.uk
Viewers of Channel 4 should have taken notes when reading the Daily Mail in 2014:
Was the Alps massacre wife the REAL target?
[ 2014 ]
Conversations with the Thompson family in the U.S. this week have left little doubt that the civil ceremony between Jim Thompson and ‘Kelly’ in 1999 was purely a marriage of convenience, arranged to help her obtain a U.S. Green Card so she could work in the States.
Jim Thompson’s son, 28-year-old Joshua, told the Mail: ‘The relationship between my father and Kelly was not sexual. It was never discussed but, being a teenager, you pick up on these sort of things.
‘We all knew that she had married Dad to get a Green Card. That was the arrangement. My father was like that. He would do anything to help — and he wanted to help Kelly.’
Thompson’s other relatives go even further, recalling that the couple occupied separate bedrooms at their neat detached home.
‘Kelly was a virgin when she arrived, and a virgin when she left,’ said one.
Friends of the family were also aware this was a marriage of convenience.
‘Jimmy knew the score,’ said one. ‘They lived together as man and wife, but only in name. Not only did they have different religions but culturally they were so different.
‘When she was not working, Kelly would go out running and keep fit. Jimmy loved his food, particularly fried food. Kelly was super-slim and Jimmy was getting bigger all the time. They did look something of an odd couple.’
(...)
‘She was a lovely, sweet woman but we always knew it was a temporary thing and that one day she would leave. Kelly was looking for the great American dream, but she didn’t quite find it.’
Indeed, the two years that Iqbal spent in the U.S. were clearly not what she expected. While she drove herself around in a VW, always perfectly coiffed and made-up, she was unable to find work as a dentist because she was not certified by the state of Louisiana.
Instead, she was only able to work as a dental assistant earning around $20,000 a year — a meagre salary compared to the $200,000 a year she could have taken home as a dentist with her own practice.
Joy explains: ‘It was degrading for her. She was over-qualified but they wouldn’t accept her qualifications. She was this lovely, stylish and beautiful woman who spoke with a perfect British accent but she was having to do cleaning and stuff.’
At the beginning of 2001, Iqbal headed back to Dubai where, not long after, she met Surrey-based businessman Saad al-Hilli, who was also born to a prominent Iraqi family and had business interests there.
BBM
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Brit teen's incredible new details of gunman who killed her parents in the Alps
Zainab Al-Hilli has revealed more precise and terrifying details that may finally solve the Alpine gun massacre in 2012 which left both her parents dead
www.mirror.co.uk
TootsieFootsie
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Dramatic new Alps murders evidence as Brit girl 'remembers' details of gunman
A BRITISH schoolgirl left for dead after an Alps gun massacre which claimed the lives of her parents remembers “the white skin and bare hands of her attacker”, it has emerged. Zainab Al…
www.thescottishsun.co.uk
Not sure what to think about this article!
TootsieFootsie
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Brit girl whose parents were shot in Alps tells about the killer
Zainab Al-Hilli was only seven when she was shot in the shoulder and beaten around the head during the infamous attack almost exactly a decade ago but has now provided details to police to help solve it.
Blondie in Spokane
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dup