France - 5 shot, 4 dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications, 2012 #2

[Snoopster]

I agree. I rather think the question should be "why" - what is the motive; rather than who. I've always believed the gun man was a hit man. Then of course - who was the intended target.

Welcome to Websleuths Mint531!

And, yes, knowing the motive would reveal all.
This is what makes this case so fascinating. And I think about those poor girls who lost their parents and grandmother. So sad.

 

[Warwick1991]

Thanks for the update to this case.

So does this report prove that the Belgian was shot because his vehicle had a foreign license plate, because he had children in the back (asleep, so probably not visible), and because he was on holiday?

Similarly, do they prove the killer at Chevaline shot the al-Hilli family because they were on holiday, because there was one child in the car (he seems not to have known about the one in the back), and because of the foreign license plate?

Are trees so rare in France that a serial killer would have to go all the way to a parking lot in the mountains above Chevaline to find some, similar to the ones at the earlier highway rest stop murder?

The Belgian was shot 5 times, it's not clear where all his wounds were located, whereas two shots to the head was the prefered technique of the Alps murder.

My understanding is that the gun used to kill the Belgian was a rare type of rifle, generally only owned by collectors Qui a tué le nivellois Xavier Baligant ? Dix ans après sa mort, toujours aucune réponse

Whereas the Luger P06 used in the Annency shooting was a very popular and standard pistol owned across Europe, in the same way and for the same reason Swiss watches were popular. There is a high likelihood of inheriting one, or easily buying one.

Then there are the many thing that are very different aspects of the two crimes: for example that one deliberately targetted a solo person in the wee hours of the morning, while the other was a massacre of a large number of people in the middle of the day...just unimportant trivial details to these supposedly expert crime analysts.

JMO

What I find interesting about both cases is the use of Swiss collector-grade firearms, which were sold as surplus by the Swiss government at various times. The rifle used to shoot the Belgian, from the picture, was a Schmidt-Rubin rifle, now used mainly for target shooting. The Schmidt-Rubin, once a Swiss military rifle, had a unique straight pull action that was never adopted outside Switzerland. The Swiss Luger used to kill the al-Hillis is also mainly a collectors item, and one with monetary value.

I can't imagine a professional hitman or a government using what are essentially antiques for a targeted killing, although I suppose it's possible. In a European country with gun control, these firearms could have been inherited or privately purchased.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Zaid, who was once himself named as a suspect by French police but later cleared, said: 'The initial investigation was a complete disaster. Look at the mistakes – were they accidental, or were they part of something bigger? That's what we need to find out,' he told The Mirror.

Brother of Brit killed in Alps shooting demands probe into French cops

Zaid Al-Hilli, 65, whose brother Saad, 50, was gunned down alongside his wife, mother-in-law, and a French cyclist in 2012 has now launched a blistering attack on investigators.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[dotr]

,

 

[ZaZara]

,

Ay @dotr, I got an alert thet you quoted me..... and all I see is this comma....



Let me put it like this: I am very glad it wasn't a full stop!

 

[Elley Mae]

Hopes of major breakthrough in case of British family shot dead in the Alps as investigators say 'Swiss spec op soldier went off the rails and killed them' based on special gun technique used

'Swiss spec op soldier' carried out killing of Brit family in the Alps

French investigators believe the brutal 2012 mass shooting of Saad Al-Hilli, 50, his wife Iqbal, 47, her mother Suhaila, 74, and local cyclist Sylvain Mollier, 45, could finally be solved after 12 years.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The type of weapon used - a Luger PO6 - is also not favoured by professional hitmen, as they are known to regularly malfunction and are considered unreliable.

It is believed that the killer's gun did jam explaining why Zainab was struck in her head with the butt of a weapon after being hit in the shoulder.

According to the expert, there is also interest around the perpetrator choosing to finish off his victims by shooting at very close range - a technique used in specialised military training, but particularly by the Swiss Détachement d'Action Rapide et de Dissuasion (DARD).

'This is something learned in Switzerland, not in France, or the guy is part of a specialized unit,' he told Le Parisien.

 

[furbabies]

Tuerie de Chevaline : une profileuse britannique a dressé un portrait-robot psychologique du tueur

Tuerie de Chevaline : "Paranoïa", "motivation interne"... Une spécialiste a établi le profil psychologique du tireur

The famous case of the Chevaline massacre is about to officially become a "cold case". The investigation into the mysterious assassinations of three members of a British family and a French cyclist on a forest road in Haute-Savoie in September 2012 is to be transferred to the new judicial division dedicated to "serial and unsolved crimes".

According to our information, on 18 July 2022 the Annecy prosecutor's office issued a request for the transfer of jurisdiction to this national court, which was created in March and is based at the judicial court in Nanterre (Hauts-de-Seine).

(..)

However, this does not mean that the investigation has reached a dead end, according to the Annecy prosecutor, who evokes a conscious choice, without pressure, in line with the creation of a cold case unit with more means and time to identify a culprit. The case of the Chevaline massacre will thus be re-examined with a fresh eye by one of the three specialised investigating judges of the new Nanterre jurisdiction.

And the magistrate will be able to rely on an unpublished judicial document, which we reveal: the psychological sketch of the killer. This was produced in July 2020 by a British "profiler", a consultant forensic clinical psychologist, after reading hundreds of thousands of court records, multiple interviews with French and English investigators and an analysis of existing criminological literature on "multiple killings".

"An internal motivation of his own that is entirely independent of the victims
He is probably 99% male, aged between 30 and 40," the expert concluded. (...) "I put forward the theory that the perpetrator of the Chevaline attacks acted on an internal motivation of his own that is entirely independent of the victims of this case," the expert concluded.

Like the French investigators, the British psychologist favours the idea of a local and isolated act, possibly committed by a local killer with an unstable psychological profile.

She lists a few possible personality traits: "unemployed or in an unskilled job", "living alone" or solitary in "a closed family environment", "a former soldier" or a person with an attraction for weapons: "collector, hunter, club shooter or paramilitary".

An "expert" who meticulously "planned" and "organised" the killing

(...)

During the express killing, the killer used a Luger P06 revolver, an old weapon made during the Second World War and prized by collectors, before disappearing. Seventeen of the 21 bullets fired hit their targets, leading the profiler to believe that an "expert" had meticulously "planned" and "organised" the killing.

"Significant psychological clues from the crime scene and subsequent investigations indicate that the perpetrator planned to kill several people in the Combe d'Ire car park and planned to flee," the profiler analyses. (...) It is unlikely that the car park was chosen at random. (...) The most plausible scenario is that the perpetrator had no connection with the victims and was unaware of their arrival at the car park at the time. A place that the killer could be "well acquainted with".

A random quadruple murder, in short. According to the expert, the killer kept the murder weapon (damaged by a blow to the head of one of the two survivors) and tried to repair it after the carnage.

For the psychologist, there is a possibility that the killer was suffering from psychological disorders, even a form of "paranoia" and that he could have been driven by "hatred for a particular community or target". In other words, a racist impulse, unless it was the desire to kill a cyclist. The expert does not rule out the possibility that the killer was also "driven by voices".


BBM


"we can reasonably assume that the author is someone from the area"

as the killer had a gun , it looks like it was a assasnation, more than just a random nutter

 

[TootsieFootsie]

An article I don't think I saw before. It's from May 2024.

Breakthrough in DNA testing could finally help find mystery killer

It was in September 2012 that 50-year-old Surrey engineer Saad al-Hilli was gunned down alongside his wife, Iqbal Al-Hilli, 47, and her mother, Suhaila al-Allaf, 74.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[furbabies]

Welcome to Websleuths Mint531!

And, yes, knowing the motive would reveal all.
This is what makes this case so fascinating. And I think about those poor girls who lost their parents and grandmother. So sad.

if hitman he followed them to france how would he know to go there....he stayed at same hotel and followed on bike seems unlikely....so if a nutter random attack maybe racist ? but as the killer had a gun makes me think it was somehow planned.

 

[tarabull]

Fresh twist in Alps murder of Brit family points to a 'mystery camper'

A mystery 'Danish' camper was staying in a tent close to the scenes of the murders of Saad Al-Hilli and his family in 2012 and Belgium tourist Xavier Baligant in 2011. Police fear he could be the killer.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Suspect in French Alps murders of Brit family is ‘soldier who went off rails’

Cold case unit reopens investigation after Surrey-based Saad al-Hilli, his wife, and her mother were gunned down on a road near Annecy in 2012

www.standard.co.uk

Shooter behind 2012 Alps quadruple murder ‘was ex-Swiss special forces who lost the plot’

Weapons expert reports that the point-blank technique used was likely instructed to killer in Swiss military

www.telegraph.co.uk

'Major breakthrough' in case of Brits shot dead in Alps as investigators say killer was elite soldier who 'went off the rails'

French investigators believe they have finally solved the brutal mass shooting of three Brits in the Alps after 12 years.

www.lbc.co.uk

 

[kemo]

From what I can tell, they don’t have a suspect, they just think the suspect was trained in a particular military tactic. Apparently only an elite cadre of French soldiers were trained in this but far more Swiss military and paramilitary were specifically trained in that tactic. ( the shootings were close to the Swiss border and the escape route the shooter is believed to have taken could have led to Switzerland). This narrows the potential perpetrators down but it isn’t certain that the perpetrator really had this training.

 

[Lonicera]

Many uncertainties on the tracks followed but this is perhaps the tactic of Judge Khéris from the Pôle cold case de Nanterre . 3 judges (all women) have been doing excellent work since 2022. Here are details on the US track (RTL)
https://www.rtl.fr/actu/justice-fai...les-nouveaux-elements-de-l-enquete-7900469418 "Another fascinating aspect of the case, the American dimension. On the day of the massacre, 5 September 2012, the first American husband of Iqbal al-Hilli, the mother killed in the Chevaline car park, died of a heart attack in the US. Discovered only in 2013 by the French investigators and subject of several international letters rogatory, this disturbing fact has so far been the object of "very partial returns" of the US justice according to a summary report drawn up by the investigators early 2023.
An American coroner concluded that J.Thomson, the former husband of whom Iqbal al-Hilli had been separated since 2000, died of natural causes. The meager investigations conducted by the US justice have ruled out a link between the killing and the death. But the coincidence haunts J. Thomson’s family members, including his daughter, convinced that it was Iqbal al-Hilli who was at the heart of an international plot because of his former professional activities, which would have cost his family and close friends their lives. Nothing has ever been done to support this. The gendarmes wanted in 2023 that new investigations on Thomson’s relatives be conducted in the USA to establish a solid "life profile" of Iqbal al-Hilli. It is not known to this day whether they were launched. The mystery of Chevaline, however, remains intact. "
"The trail of a Danish citizen, whose presence at the two crime scenes was initially revealed in 2021 by a criminal analyst who crossed the databases of the two cases, was finally ruled out after a series of checks, according to information from RTL."
"At the request of Judge Khéris, new DNA comparisons were launched in 2023 and 2024, sometimes throughout Europe. Seals from the crime scene, such as two cigarette butts, and the clothes of some victims in particular, are being analyzed to try to reveal DNA traces that have so far been under the radar thanks to recent techniques. In addition, an ancient trace of DNA is being compared with the Austrian genetic fingerprint file.
Illustration of difficulty of the exercise: another comparison with a hairy element found in the British car had resulted in a Dominican citizen, whose genetic trace had been recorded in France in a violence procedure, and now installed in Spain. Again, the track was ruled out after an interrogation in view of his schedule. The trace also matched the DNA of a victim's sister...."

 

[tarabull]

July 8 2014

Alps shootings: murdered woman's 'secret' ex-husband died on same day

Ex-husband of Iqbal al-Hilli died of a heart attack in the US on the same day as deadly 2012 attack in French Alps, police say

www.theguardian.com

 

[furbabies]

From what I can tell, they don’t have a suspect, they just think the suspect was trained in a particular military tactic. Apparently only an elite cadre of French soldiers were trained in this but far more Swiss military and paramilitary were specifically trained in that tactic. ( the shootings were close to the Swiss border and the escape route the shooter is believed to have taken could have led to Switzerland). This narrows the potential perpetrators down but it isn’t certain that the perpetrator really had this training.

But if a contract kill, the killer knew they were going to france, stayed at same hotel and followed them from there, seems abit long winded, but the alternative would be a random say racist killing, which also is extremly rare indeed, as the perp had a gun on him it looks like planned but again strange and longwinded to know they went to france and same hotel?

 

[Lonicera]

French, I wonder about this quadruple homicide from the beginning . My deep conviction was that it was a revenge against Saad. Now I let the experts in traces speak: DNA, balistics, telephonics, etc. I don’t think it can be a racist religious killing or a killing committed without reason .
I think DNA evidence must have been collected from the seriously injured girl’s clothes, who was held by the killer. I hope that science will allow us to trace this killer.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I definitely think it could have been a racist attack by a stranger.

 

[Cedars]

I definitely think it could have been a racist attack by a stranger.

It seems the person had hidden their own vehicle and were lying in wait at the parking lot...how long might they have to wait before someone who was obviously of a different race would show up?

And I don't think Saad or his daughter looked particularly foreign - he looked just like any guy on holiday from the UK, with perhaps a large nose.

JMO

 

[ZaZara]

Tuerie de Chevaline: les enqu^teurla piste d’un militaire fou?

The timing of the shots - very short, between 60 and 90 seconds - and their great precision (18 out of 21 bullets hit their target) has led investigators to draw up the most accurate profile possible of the shooter.

The crime scene was reconstructed last October at a military base near Paris, reports the French newspaper Le Parisien. The exercise, which pitted shooters of very different levels against each other, revealed the level of technical difficulty required for this quadruple homicide. The conclusion was that the perpetrator had to be extremely cold-blooded and skilled in handling the weapon.

An expert in the field of shooting and tactics within the army, interviewed in the spring of 2023, believes that the perpetrator must have been trained in techniques reserved for a very small fringe of professional shooters. In France, members of the intelligence services or infantry paratroopers could receive such training to deal with extreme situations.

However, according to this expert, the best place to look is Switzerland. For two reasons. Firstly, the weapon used, a Luger P06, is a collector's item. It dates from the early 20th century and was used by the Swiss army. It doesn't fit the profile of a hitman, who would have used a much more reliable weapon. Secondly, because in Switzerland all the special military forces and intervention brigades are trained in the use of the precision close-range technique.

What's more, two private companies were teaching the technique in the early 2010s as part of courses open to hand-picked military personnel and civilians. ‘It's something taught in Switzerland, not in France, or else the guy is part of a specialist unit’, notes the expert quoted by ‘Le Parisien’.

In view of the sketch that is taking shape, he is leaning towards ‘the profile of a Swiss soldier in his fifties who would have gone into a frenzy after having undergone precision close-range training’.

In this context, the victims, a family on holiday, would have been chosen at random. This would be a far cry from the lines of enquiry that have focused on the profile of the victims, the Al-Hilli family, searching for a motive, and which have yielded nothing to this day.

Investigators are also troubled by another unsolved case with similarities to the Chevaline crime. On the night of 18 to 19 July 2011, a Belgian holidaymaker, Xavier Baligant, was shot dead at a motorway service area in Meurthe-et-Moselle, as he was returning from holiday with his two children.

It was established that the rifle used was a K31 musket, a Swiss-made weapon dating from the 1930s. The isolated location of the crime and the absence of any apparent motive are two other points of similarity, according to the investigators.


BBM