France - Five shot, four dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications #1

[katydid23]

There are bullet holes in the window where the girl was sitting also. I don't think she was out of the car but got lucky that the shooter got interrupted by the cyclist. Maybe even more lucky when the shooter ran out of bullets.

I hope the French will pull through and get to the truth. I have less faith in the British. Especially when it turns out this was a assassination for political reasons. We might never hear the whole truth. JMO.

BINGO. That is a fitting scenario. The shooter is blasting everyone in the car and then the cyclist happens upon the scene before he realizes what is happening. And the shooter turns his sights upon the cyclist, giving the wounded child a chance to run from the car. But he catches her and strikes her as he reaches her. I hope they find this monster.

 

[rotterdam]

Im still on the fence with a lot of this.

What if the cyclist was the target?,
Family reverse into parking spot and park,as cyclist gets level with car the shooter/s appear and attack,cyclist may then have headed towards the car for safety/cover,father starts car in panick(its still in reverse gear)and car reverses up bank.cyclist gets shot and shooters panick and shoot family,could explain why they didnt get the young girl(because if family was target they would have known the number of individuals and would have looked for her to shoot)..

A thought i had as to why the older girl was out of the vehicle when this happened was what if she was out of the car to P(urinate)?,shes certainly old enough to nip behind the bushes on her own.It would also explain why car was in layby.

Im not sure of the quick u-turn theory because when looking at the aerial pic i cant see tyre marks in an arch like pattern of a vehicle reversing at speed in ,surely that would have disturbed the gravel leaving a darker looking mark?.

The 7 year old had problems with car sickness, so that could be the reason she was out of the car.
"Zainab may have been able to have escape the car because she suffered car sickness and so liked to travel in the front passenger seat."
http://news.uk.msn.com/world/saad-al-hilli-was-most-generous-man-you-could-meet

 

[~n/t~]

French authorities said the findings of the post mortem examinations showed the assassins' "absolute determination to kill their victims".


The ruthlessness of the murders will fuel speculation that Saad al-Hilli and his wife Iqbal, who were on a caravanning holiday in the region, were victims of a professional hit. A cyclist who stumbled across the scene was also gunned down on a forest track near Lake Annecy on Wednesday afternoon.


Eric Maillaud, the prosecutor in the case, said the post mortem findings did not "necessarily" prove professional hit men were involved but added that, while he could not rule out the couple being killed by a madman, "it's not at the top of our list of possible theories".

more at the link.

http://www.hawkesburygazette.com.au...sure-to-finish-off-their-victims/2658774.aspx

 

[ScotsPaddy]

There are bullet holes in the window where the girl was sitting also. I don't think she was out of the car but got lucky that the shooter got interrupted by the cyclist. Maybe even more lucky when the shooter ran out of bullets.

I hope the French will pull through and get to the truth. I have less faith in the British. Especially when it turns out this was a assassination for political reasons. We might never hear the whole truth. JMO.

Yeah i could see that scenario also,definately.
Looking at the aerial pic at the smashed passenger window(left hand side window,remember tis a right hand drive vehicle) i dont see glass at the officers feet which makes me think he shot from that side,the side the girl would have been sitting,i wonder if she ducked,shooter shot over her to father then moved around the vehicle,at that point girl bolts from car?.

Also looking at the aerial pic,the 2 dark spots on the ground in between the 2 officers is where i believe the cyclist was shot or at least laying dead(from what i remember of an early graphic shown)..

 

[~n/t~]

The 7 year old had problems with car sickness, so that could be the reason she was out of the car.
"Zainab may have been able to have escape the car because she suffered car sickness and so liked to travel in the front passenger seat."
http://news.uk.msn.com/world/saad-al-hilli-was-most-generous-man-you-could-meet

Just jumping off your link with my questions. Not necessarily directed at you.

Would the child sitting in the front passenger seat also indicate that the family had no idea they were being targeted? If they felt they were being watched would they risk having their daughter sit in the front seat, car sickeness or not? Would they stop if they thought they were being followed?

 

[ScotsPaddy]

Ok,if the cyclist was the target and the shooter was a PROFESSIONAL hitman then i dont see the family being unnecessarily wiped out,that would draw far more attention than a single cyclist.
Same scenario above but the shooter is just someone paid to do the job then i could see him/them maybe panicking and shooting family,especially if he/they have had to take something(coke etc) to hype them up to do the job..

Now say the family is the target,then i could see either a pro or amatuer shooting the cyclist...

As to why it happened where it did if the cyclist was the target,it could be they gave him a head start to get up the hill and it just so happens that that is where the shooter/s caught up with him.

 

[~n/t~]

Did French Alps murder victim's secret work on space satellite contract make him prime assassination target?

• Investigators to quiz work colleagues at Surrey firm about sensitive defence deal

• All four victims were shot twice in the head and may have been followed by their killers

• Four-year-old survivor of French assassination shown a photo of murdered mother and exclaimed 'mummy'

• Police say they are looking at whether murderer may have lured family to killing spot

• Brother of dead aeronautical engineer Zaid Al-Hilli has been left devastated says cousin

more at link

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ssassination-target.html?ICO=most_read_module

 

[~n/t~]

Ok,if the cyclist was the target and the shooter was a PROFESSIONAL hitman then i dont see the family being unnecessarily wiped out,that would draw far more attention than a single cyclist.
Same scenario above but the shooter is just someone paid to do the job then i could see him/them maybe panicking and shooting family,especially if he/they have had to take something(coke etc) to hype them up to do the job..

Now say the family is the target,then i could see either a pro or amatuer shooting the cyclist...

As to why it happened where it did if the cyclist was the target,it could be they gave him a head start to get up the hill and it just so happens that that is where the shooter/s caught up with him.

IMO, I think we can rule out the cyclist being the target. The focus of the investigation is clearly the family with British, French, Italian and Swiss Law Enforcement Agencies involved.

 

[ScotsPaddy]

Was the older female camping with the family?.
Could they have been meeting the person with the swiss passport to collect money from a swiss bank accout maybe?,obviously they know them and decide to spend some time together after the transaction.
Could the person with the swiss passport have handed over money,called shooters to tell them money is handed over and it was a robbery but they decide the swiss passport person is the only witness to money apart from family and shhot them too?..

Sorry brains buzzing

 

[~n/t~]

French Alps shooting: house search continues

Officers returned to the property in Claygate, Surrey, at around 7am on Sunday. The family home continues to be guarded by Surrey Police, who are assisting French police. Crime officers in full protective clothing moved between the house and a forensic tent erected outside the front door of the home.

http://www.channel4.com/news/french-alps-shooting-house-search-continues

 

[~n/t~]

Was the older female camping with the family?.
Could they have been meeting the person with the swiss passport to collect money from a swiss bank accout maybe?,obviously they know them and decide to spend some time together after the transaction.
Could the person with the swiss passport have handed over money,called shooters to tell them money is handed over and it was a robbery but they decide the swiss passport person is the only witness to money apart from family and shhot them too?..

Sorry brains buzzing

She wasn't Swiss. She was Swedish.

 

[~n/t~]

Warning: This is the SUN and it's the only article I could find that mentions mobile phones so read with a bucket of salt.

Two mobiles ‘vital clue’ to massacre

Phones found in car may trap hitmen

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4528064/Two-mobiles-vital-clue-to-Alps-massacre.html

 

[Saturn]

The poster that mentioned the occupation of the French cyclist, along with the occupation of the British family, and an ex-RAF (possibly SAS??) finding the scene.

This has been playing on my mind and is probably so far fetched as I read too many books of this ilk.

UK schools went back at the beginning of September; taking children out of schools is frowned upon, but more so if your children are 11yo+ and at secondary schools (Travelling and holidays are so much cheaper outside of the normal school holidays).

If this was some undercover meeting, it would suit the British MI5/MI6 or whatever to let the French continue with the search of the Brit family home - to satisfy the media, and divert attention from a possible deeper espionage type motive.

Also, a brief reminder to our US friends, the open car door is most likely the drivers side, as more than 99% of UK registered cars will be right hand drive; so 7 year old being hit whilst in the passenger side, would have shown the other front door to be open - that is if the doors haven't been opened a closed before the pics were taken.

A foreign hitman with adrenalin pumping may well have shot from what would be the passenger side, thinking it was a LHD vehicle which is the norm throughout Europe.

Yep! I read too many thrillers :blushing:

 

[ScotsPaddy]

She wasn't Swiss. She was Swedish.

Lol i really should pay more attention,sorreee..

 

[Snoopster]

Just a reminder that the driver's side is on the right hand side of the vehicle. Your point still stands that the window is up.

I am not familiar with what the residue from casts would look like. Could you please describe what we would expect to see. Thanks!

I wonder when this photo was taken. Clearly it must have been taken well after the crime since the victims have been removed and we know they didn't remove the victims the day of the murder.

As an aside, the reports indicate that the deceased cyclist was found on the far side of the vehicle (from the direction in which the discovering cyclist arrived) which would mean that there would likely be his footprints on the far side (i.e. driver's side) of the vehicle as well as his blood. I also read that his bike had been 'tossed into the far corner of the pull-in.

I just realized that I possibly made an incorrect assumption. I assumed that the direction of approach of the cyclists was from the same direction as the camera angle, but I don't know for sure which direction the camera angle was taken. Perhaps the passenger side of the vehicle was the "far side", i.e. the cyclists would have approached toward the camera. Does anyone know if the pull off is to the right or left side of the road as you drive in?

If the "far side" is the passenger side of the family's vehicle then it would be easier to see how the cyclist would have less time to digest the scene as the vehicle was tucked in to that end of the lay by. Sorry for my convoluted description!

 

[Snoopster]

IMO, I think we can rule out the cyclist being the target. The focus of the investigation is clearly the family with British, French, Italian and Swiss Law Enforcement Agencies involved.

I'm not sure I'm ready to rule out the cyclist being a target. Who says that both the family and the cyclist weren't targets? (i.e. the rendezvous theory) I'm not saying it isn't a long shot, but I'm not ready to completely discard it.

I don't understand why the involvement of "British, French, Italian and Swiss Law Enforcement Agencies" would preclude the cyclist being a target.

I do believe the family was a target though (or the father at a minimum).

All JMO.

I have a question, I have seen it mentioned on this thread that there were 25 shots in 30 seconds. I thought I had read that the RAF cyclist didn't hear anything, so who heard the shots? I couldn't find the original reference. TIA

 

[ScotsPaddy]

Snoopster from my understanding and from the first reports of the cyclist arriving on the murder scene was that he didnt hear any shots at all..

 

[~n/t~]

I'm not sure I'm ready to rule out the cyclist being a target. Who says that both the family and the cyclist weren't targets? (i.e. the rendezvous theory) I'm not saying it isn't a long shot, but I'm not ready to completely discard it.

I don't understand why the involvement of "British, French, Italian and Swiss Law Enforcement Agencies" would preclude the cyclist being a target.

I do believe the family was a target though (or the father at a minimum).

All JMO.

I have a question, I have seen it mentioned on this thread that there were 25 shots in 30 seconds. I thought I had read that the RAF cyclist didn't hear anything, so who heard the shots? I couldn't find the original reference. TIA

I don't see any active investigations being done on the cyclist and that's why I believe he was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. The focus appears to be on the family and not the cyclist.

 

[~n/t~]

Coincidence?

Local deputy health director Dr. Adnan al-Musharifawi said two people were killed and three were wounded at the hotel, and one Iraqi policeman was wounded at the consulate. Al-Musharifawi said no French diplomats were among the casualties.

In Paris, France's Foreign Ministry said it "condemns with the greatest severity" the wave of attacks. In a statement, the ministry said it "especially condemned" the attack outside France's honorary consulate in Nasiriyah, which killed an Iraqi police officer and wounded a passer-by.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...S1IkJA?docId=5d0df6d92b4c4cea8cd68adfc256d904

At least 58 people were killed in attacks across Iraq on Sunday, including a car bomb outside a French consulate.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...least-58-french-consulate-hit/article4530077/

 

[Swamp Fox Trot]

Lol i really should pay more attention,sorreee..

Well they were right next to Switzerland; I wouldn't rule out the Swiss bank idea.