France - Five shot, four dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications #1

[Waddles]

The eldest daughter has just come out of a coma. I read in one French paper, contrary to all other sources that the deceased wife had no bullet wounds....I can't find any other reference to this and it seems really odd
http://www.rtl.fr/actualites/articl...l-hilli-a-nouveau-entendu-dimanche-7752301719
(stated in the diagram)

 

[Waddles]

I don't see any active investigations being done on the cyclist and that's why I believe he was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. The focus appears to be on the family and not the cyclist.

French papers state that they are looking into this possibility also and not ruling it out. However, they all seem to focus on the discord between the brothers as the main line of investigation.

 

[Waddles]

Warning: This is the SUN and it's the only article I could find that mentions mobile phones so read with a bucket of salt.

Two mobiles ‘vital clue’ to massacre

Phones found in car may trap hitmen

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4528064/Two-mobiles-vital-clue-to-Alps-massacre.html

the daily mail and French paper le parisien also discussed the 2 phones

 

[Waddles]

The eldest daughter has just come out of a coma. I read in one French paper, contrary to all other sources that the deceased wife had no bullet wounds....I can't find any other reference to this and it seems really odd
http://www.rtl.fr/actualites/articl...l-hilli-a-nouveau-entendu-dimanche-7752301719
(stated in the diagram)

I find another quote in the serious paper le monde
http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/artic...e-la-tuerie-en-haute-savoie_1756156_3224.html
Trois des quatre personnes tuées dans une fusillade en Haute-Savoie ont reçu une balle dans la tête, selon le procureur de la République d'Annecy. Il n'y a pas d'impact de balle sur le corps de la plus jeune des deux femmes. "A l'heure actuelle, je ne sais pas de quoi elle est morte", a expliqué le procureur.
Three out of the four people killed in the shooting in Haute Savoie received a bullet to the head, according to state prosecutor of Annecy. There was no bullet impact on the body of the younger of the two women. "At this time I do not know how she died"

 

[Clio]

Warning: This is the SUN and it's the only article I could find that mentions mobile phones so read with a bucket of salt.

Two mobiles ‘vital clue’ to massacre

Phones found in car may trap hitmen

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4528064/Two-mobiles-vital-clue-to-Alps-massacre.html

the daily mail and French paper le parisien also discussed the 2 phones

Phones also mentioned by Sky News.

http://news.sky.com/story/982481/alps-shootings-police-find-two-phones-in-car

 

[jjenny]

I find another quote in the serious paper le monde
http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/artic...e-la-tuerie-en-haute-savoie_1756156_3224.html
Trois des quatre personnes tuées dans une fusillade en Haute-Savoie ont reçu une balle dans la tête, selon le procureur de la République d'Annecy. Il n'y a pas d'impact de balle sur le corps de la plus jeune des deux femmes. "A l'heure actuelle, je ne sais pas de quoi elle est morte", a expliqué le procureur.
Three out of the four people killed in the shooting in Haute Savoie received a bullet to the head, according to state prosecutor of Annecy. There was no bullet impact on the body of the younger of the two women. "At this time I do not know how she died"

Prosecutor says each victim that died was shot in the head twice.
"Eric Maillaud, who is leading the investigation, confirmed Saad al-Hilli, an Iraqi-born engineer, his 47-year-old wife Iqbal, a 77-year-old woman believed to be a relative, and a passing cyclist Sylvian Mollier, 45, all received two gunshot wounds to the head."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-confirms-victims-shot-twice-in-the-head.html

 

[Waddles]

Prosecutor says each victim that died was shot in the head twice.
"Eric Maillaud, who is leading the investigation, confirmed Saad al-Hilli, an Iraqi-born engineer, his 47-year-old wife Iqbal, a 77-year-old woman believed to be a relative, and a passing cyclist Sylvian Mollier, 45, all received two gunshot wounds to the head."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-confirms-victims-shot-twice-in-the-head.html

Thanks jenny, that's true, as stated in most of the press, and it was therefore really strange to read contradictory info on this...

 

[Clio]

The eldest daughter has just come out of a coma. I read in one French paper, contrary to all other sources that the deceased wife had no bullet wounds....I can't find any other reference to this and it seems really odd
http://www.rtl.fr/actualites/articl...l-hilli-a-nouveau-entendu-dimanche-7752301719
(stated in the diagram)

Thanks for this.

Also reported here that Zainab is out of her coma.

The seven-year-old British girl who survived a gun attack in the French Alps last week that saw her father and mother shot dead in their car is out of a coma and will be questioned by police as soon as she is able, the French prosecutor said on Sunday.

"She (Zainab) has come out of her artificial coma and she is now sedated," State Prosecutor Eric Maillaud told Reuters.

He said an uncle and aunt of Zainab, who had suffered serious skull fractures in the attack, were by her side at the hospital in Grenoble.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...akes-from-coma-to-learn-parents-are-dead.html

Regarding the wife having no bullet wounds - could that be an earlier understanding of the situation? In the press conference from yesterday, Eric Maillaud said all 4 victims had been shot twice in the head.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...olice-confirm-victims-shot-twice-in-head.html

 

[Waddles]

Thanks for this.

Also reported here that Zainab is out of her coma.





http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...akes-from-coma-to-learn-parents-are-dead.html

Regarding the wife having no bullet wounds - could that be an earlier understanding of the situation? In the press conference from yesterday, Eric Maillaud said all 4 victims had been shot twice in the head.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...olice-confirm-victims-shot-twice-in-head.html

Thanks, yes I think you're right, it must have been an earlier statement that was reported again by mistake.

 

[jjenny]

The younger child has been sent to Britain. Why didn't they put this child in protective custody until they figure out who was responsible?

 

[Clio]

The younger child has been sent to Britain. Why didn't they put this child in protective custody until they figure out who was responsible?

They said that it was vital for her to be reunited with some family members who she knew, however a police FLO and social worker are also involved.

Zeena, four, returned to Britain on Sunday after two family members, a British social worker and a police liaison officer travelled to Annecy to collect her.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/09/french-alps-shootings-zainab-conscious?newsfeed=true

 

[Clio]

Maybe it's just me but doesn't the search of the family home seem a bit unusual?

I accept that searching the house would be normal procedure but it feels like the search is a bit "over the top"

The police started a forensic search straight away, they took an angle grinder in yesterday and today firemen in full protective clothing joined the search. I wonder what they are expecting to find in there that warrants these measures. Perhaps I am reading too much into this...

 

[katydid23]

I'm not sure I'm ready to rule out the cyclist being a target. Who says that both the family and the cyclist weren't targets? (i.e. the rendezvous theory) I'm not saying it isn't a long shot, but I'm not ready to completely discard it.

I don't understand why the involvement of "British, French, Italian and Swiss Law Enforcement Agencies" would preclude the cyclist being a target.

I do believe the family was a target though (or the father at a minimum).

All JMO.

I have a question, I have seen it mentioned on this thread that there were 25 shots in 30 seconds. I thought I had read that the RAF cyclist didn't hear anything, so who heard the shots? I couldn't find the original reference. TIA

I thought they just counted the casings left on the scene to figure out the number of shots. I am not sure that anyone heard the shooting.

That is an interesting thought, that the cyclist was there to meet with the family, thus the killing of all of them. Makes some sense. I cannot believe that the cyclist was the sole target though.

What I don't understand though, is WHY take out the entire family if it is about the Father being a political/military target?

Taking out the entire family leads me back to the question of the 'inheritance' fight.

 

[katydid23]

French papers state that they are looking into this possibility also and not ruling it out. However, they all seem to focus on the discord between the brothers as the main line of investigation.

I am going back to that scenario as well.

When scientists are killed by political factions because they worked on secret projects, etc, I have never seen the entire family slaughtered on Holiday. They usually take out the scientist only. Why kill a 7 yr old girl?

You can get spies to kill 'enemy' scientists or other spies, but they generally won't slaughter innocent women and children.

True, there are terrorists which will do this. But this attack did not have those same hallmarks. It seems more like an execution style paid hit.

The only person who would want the ENTIRE family gone would be someone who wanted an inheritance and needed the other family wiped clean. imo

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

This case is very intriguing to me - wish more people were on this thread! I keep lurking. Here are my thoughts so far:

As for the bicyclist...if he was the intended target, chances are the gunman was in a vehicle or on a motorcycle. The gunman would have shot this guy where there were no suspected witnesses. Why would he shoot them where the car happened to pull off? Makes no sense, IMO when a car can easily incapacitate a bike. I think the daughter got out of the car and started flagging down help and very quickly the bicyclist was there and she was incapacitated at the same time. And the fact that she knew to get out of the car makes me think they were sitting there for more than a few seconds, maybe meeting someone and the confrontation turned ugly. This makes me think there was an 'expected confrontation' if you will, because clearly the little one got down and hid. This route (look it up on maps.google.com) makes no sense at that time of day if they left their trailer back at the campground. The one question I would ask the older girl is, where were you all going that day? It will shed a LOT of light on what that purpose was.

As for it being the family or not, I really can't say but I think they need to be very cautious with these girls. I am surprised the young one travelled back to the UK when they aren't sure who the killer is. Who knows what story she will tell a week from now.

It makes sense they were targeted though, if you look at the overhead picture, someone posted most recently, you can almost make out the tire marks where they backed in from the road. I think they were either trying to turn around because they suspected they were begin followed and he wanted to try and go back the way they came OR they were meeting someone and he wanted to get out quick and couldn't. What are the chances that the girl could have been peeing, or they stopped for something else or the bicyclist was the target IN THAT SPOT? No way. They backed in to that spot for something.

Look on google maps and you can see the turnout. It's coming away from their campground, east side, and it makes no sense for them to go that road. I want to know what their plans were for that night.....

 

[fhc]

I am going back to that scenario as well.

When scientists are killed by political factions because they worked on secret projects, etc, I have never seen the entire family slaughtered on Holiday. They usually take out the scientist only. Why kill a 7 yr old girl?

You can get spies to kill 'enemy' scientists or other spies, but they generally won't slaughter innocent women and children.

True, there are terrorists which will do this. But this attack did not have those same hallmarks. It seems more like an execution style paid hit.

The only person who would want the ENTIRE family gone would be someone who wanted an inheritance and needed the other family wiped clean. imo

Doesn't it seem that the killer did not want to kill the little girl, only keep her from running for help? He shot her in the shoulder, not twice in the head and maybe, initially attempted to stop her by hitting her in the head. If the family was the target because of personal family finance discord, wouldn't the 2 girls that would inherit have been accounted for and killed in the same way?

 

[katydid23]

Doesn't it seem that the killer did not want to kill the little girl, only keep her from running for help? He shot her in the shoulder, not twice in the head and maybe, initially attempted to stop her by hitting her in the head. If the family was the target because of personal family finance discord, wouldn't the 2 girls that would inherit have been accounted for and killed in the same way?

Good points. But maybe he lost his nerve. I imagine it is hard to look a 7 yr old girl in the face and shoot her in the head. Even for a paid assassin.

And the 4 yr old was under her mothers burka. He may have thought she was not there at the time. ?

 

[fhc]

Good points. But maybe he lost his nerve. I imagine it is hard to look a 7 yr old girl in the face and shoot her in the head. Even for a paid assassin.

And the 4 yr old was under her mothers burka. He may have thought she was not there at the time. ?

On the flip side, if the parents were killed and the uncle thought he would gain custody of the girls thus control of the estate/finances...that is why the girls were spared...idk

 

[STEADFAST]

Doesn't it seem that the killer did not want to kill the little girl, only keep her from running for help? He shot her in the shoulder, not twice in the head and maybe, initially attempted to stop her by hitting her in the head. If the family was the target because of personal family finance discord, wouldn't the 2 girls that would inherit have been accounted for and killed in the same way?

Or this scenario:
Maybe he's not so good at shooting a moving target, so he missed, hitting her in the shoulder with his last bullet. (He had to use extra on the unexpected bike rider) Then he tried to beat her to death but had to get out of there when he heard another adult riding up the road.

 

[katydid23]

On the flip side, if the parents were killed and the uncle thought he would gain custody of the girls thus control of the estate/finances...that is why the girls were spared...idk

I can see that.

I am still curious about their spontaneous camping trip. I think that is why the detectives are tearing their house apart. I think they want to know what drove them to go camping on a whim the first week of school for their girls.