France - Five shot, four dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications #1

[~n/t~]

Why were the family pulled over into that particular location then? I don't think they were followed over much distance - someone knew they were going to be arriving there.

(Maybe!)

Were they stopped before getting to their intended destination? Not knowing the area, it's hard to say where they were headed. Were they on their way back home or elsewhere?

Where are these documents? Also, there has been some criticism about French LE not approaching the vehicle for several hours. Did they think there was a bomb?

 

[wfgodot]

Were they stopped before getting to their intended destination? Not knowing the area, it's hard to say where they were headed. Were they on their way back home or elsewhere?

Where are these documents? Also, there has been some criticism about French LE not approaching the vehicle for several hours. Did they think there was a bomb?

And what does the fact that the BMW's engine was still running say about the circumstances?

There may have been no documents; it may have been a final "no more"-type meeting. I wonder if he'd consulted a solicitor before leaving England, to find out his legal position. Was he being blackmailed?

 

[wfgodot]

I find it very hard, though, to think he'd put his family in such dire circumstances. I know, books and covers, books and covers, but the one photo I've seen of him, he just does not seem to be that sort of person - though desperate people do resort to desperate measures. (He actually looks almost exactly like my best friend since seventh grade - same gentle demeanor, same eyes, same smile. This complicates sleuthing matters!)

 

[rotterdam]

But if it is espionage or corrupt business dealings, then WHY kill the little girls?

The Mossad would not kill innocent children or old women, nor would the M15, imo. Why would a business dispute bring on the need to slaughter the entire family?

Al-Saffar, mrs Al-Hilli's maiden name, was/is a political family in Iraq as far as I know. And you are right M-15, Mossad and many other state sponsored intelligence by civilized countries, do have humanitarian standards and will try to avoid innocent casualties whenever possible.
But some Middle East countries have no standards, like "black sheep" Iran.
They are blackballed and can not buy anything from EADS legitimately.
It is common knowledge that expatriates from that area are lucrative targets and can be blackmailed to cough up if they want protection for family members still residing in the area.
Anyway, this is all speculation. There could be a much more simple explanation for the massacre.

 

[~n/t~]

And what does the fact that the BMW's engine was still running say about the circumstances?

There may have been no documents; it may have been a final "no more"-type meeting. I wonder if he'd consulted a solicitor before leaving England, to find out his legal position. Was he being blackmailed?

"no-more" meeting makes sense. Sadly, if it involves some "shady" business, you can't just quit. Finding out who knew about the plan may hold the key to this horrific crime. I doubt we'll ever know the truth though.

I have a feeling this will be swept under the rug. JMO!!

 

[~n/t~]

Off to bed. I pray the children will be safe. I'm really worried about them.

 

[rotterdam]

I agree, if they had been at home, neighbours much more likely to notice strange cars etc, easier in a remote place in a foreign country close to borders of other countries.

Do we know if their cellphones were iphones? At least their phones will show if they had talked with anyone in the last few hours, and if smart phones probably much more.

Maybe far fetched but what if someone had planted an iphone in the car, and then used find my iphone app to keep track of them for their entire journey. I have no idea if this would work if iphone is not switched on.

Had the family taken their own caravan with them, or was this a hired one in France?

AFAIK, the caravan was theirs. I saw a pic of the caravan and it had a British license. No clue what kind of cell phones.

 

[rotterdam]

I don't think the meeting place was where they were executed but yes an impromptu family vacation including the elderly Swedish mother in law and the children.

Why would they require help from the Italians and Swiss? We're not hearing much about their "role" yet.

Those are the closest borders and may provide some info on the getaway vehicles. Although if the culprits had a EU passport, there is really not much checking except by video recorders.

 

[katydid23]

The children weren't killed.

True, but one is in an enforced coma and was in critical condition. The youngest was hiding, but if she had been strapped into her car seat she might have been dead from gunshots. When you shoot an automatic weapon into a closed car, you are assuming that all the occupants will be dead.

 

[rotterdam]

Why were the family pulled over into that particular location then? I don't think they were followed over much distance - someone knew they were going to be arriving there.

(Maybe!)

Many reasons. Seven year old with car sickness history needed to puke. Pre arranged meeting. Car behind them who wanted to pass. Great sight seeing spot. They had been to that particular area before and probably knew all the beautiful views.

 

[rotterdam]

Were they stopped before getting to their intended destination? Not knowing the area, it's hard to say where they were headed. Were they on their way back home or elsewhere?

Where are these documents? Also, there has been some criticism about French LE not approaching the vehicle for several hours. Did they think there was a bomb?

I think it is unfair to criticize the local French gendarmes. They did not want to disturb any evidence till the experts arrived. They started looking after they had contact with the campground and found out that the family had two girls.
Am sure they checked for vital signs on the visible victims. The RAF guy probably did that already before they got there. Why it took eight hours for experts to arrive is kind of an enigma though.

 

[wfgodot]

Daily Mail tries out a new angle:

Has vital evidence already been lost at Alps massacre murder scene?

• French detectives allowed the media and public to trample over the crime scene on Friday
• Members of the public were free to drive up to the unguarded murder scene on Saturday
• House-to-house inquiries are incomplete
• Roadblocks are not in place to ask drivers if they saw anything suspicious on Wednesday afternoon
• Only 40 French officers are working on the murders. In Britain, as many as 100 would be working on it

the story at the link above

 

[ConfusedPopsicle]

New witness.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ch-alps-shooting/story-fnb64oi6-1226470712911

Wow, this really adds weight to the pre arranged meeting theory. I just can't imagine that he would have put his wife and children in such danger. I wonder if there's any possibility he had no idea what he was getting himself into. Obviously he didn't, who would willingly go into THAT kind of situation...but I mean what if he thought it was a perfectly innocent meeting? The area makes that seem unlikely. Nothing about this makes sense :banghead:

 

[sherlockh]

And what does the fact that the BMW's engine was still running say about the circumstances?

There may have been no documents; it may have been a final "no more"-type meeting. I wonder if he'd consulted a solicitor before leaving England, to find out his legal position. Was he being blackmailed?

Car backed up hard into a bank of earth. The driver either was shot during reverse or while trying to get out of the dirt. This article has a pic that says the tire was flat but I think it simply had spun into the dirt. I wonder if the gear was still in reverse.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-family-were-1309980

 

[jjenny]

I think it is unfair to criticize the local French gendarmes. They did not want to disturb any evidence till the experts arrived. They started looking after they had contact with the campground and found out that the family had two girls.
Am sure they checked for vital signs on the visible victims. The RAF guy probably did that already before they got there. Why it took eight hours for experts to arrive is kind of an enigma though.

They are lucky this 4 year old wasn't injured. If she were injured, she could have died during those 8 hours even with a survivable injury.

 

[jjenny]

Wow, this really adds weight to the pre arranged meeting theory. I just can't imagine that he would have put his wife and children in such danger. I wonder if there's any possibility he had no idea what he was getting himself into. Obviously he didn't, who would willingly go into THAT kind of situation...but I mean what if he thought it was a perfectly innocent meeting? The area makes that seem unlikely. Nothing about this makes sense :banghead:

If there were any sort of meeting arranged, the father had to think it wasn't dangerous-otherwise why would he take his wife, two children and an elderly woman with him?

 

[ConfusedPopsicle]

If there were any sort of meeting arranged, the father had to think it wasn't dangerous-otherwise why would he take his wife, two children and an elderly woman with him?

You're right, I highly doubt he would bring his family into a dangerous situation. I should have been clearer, what I meant was maybe it wasn't supposed to be any kind of shady meeting at all? The area seems like such a strange place to have a friendly meetup, but why bring your family to anything they should have no part of.

 

[rotterdam]

Daily Mail tries out a new angle:

Has vital evidence already been lost at Alps massacre murder scene?

the story at the link above

You have to take the Daily Mail with a kilogram of salt. Brits bashing the French and vice versa, has been a popular pastime for many centuries. :what:
Besides UK not wanting to join the EU, has created some animosity in Europe too.

 

[wfgodot]

You have to take the Daily Mail with a kilogram of salt. Brits bashing the French and vice versa, has been a popular pastime for many centuries. :what:
Besides UK not wanting to join the EU, has created some animosity in Europe too.

Noted, yet the issues raised in the article seem valid ones.

 

[rotterdam]

They are lucky this 4 year old wasn't injured. If she were injured, she could have died during those 8 hours even with a survivable injury.

They are indeed. With so many bullets fired, it is almost a miracle she was not hurt physically. Does not take long for a precious little one to bleed to death.