Friends & Family of Susan Cox Powell offer public an alternative to ground search

[gwenabob]

Thanks for the link to some abandoned mines.

Does anyone know if the mines are sealed or open?
Would any on the mines/closures need a blow-torch or cutting torch to open them?

Are they locked with a chain and lock, steel doors, wooden doors, just how are the mines made safe from animals and tourists getting inside?
Does anyone have a guess why Josh would have needed to rent such an odd thing in the middle of winter??

I don't think he rented it, he bought a blow torch! We all know that Josh buys what Josh wants when Josh wants it. Why would he rent a blow torch when he could have one of his own forever? Gosh, you never know when you'll need a blow torch to attach a motor to a bicycle (or seal a mine shaft after dumping the ol' ball and chain), ya know!

 

[Melanie]

And WHY can't the public search? Some new rule? Oh, let's all get together for a potluck instead and pass out flyers.

So unfair!!!!

 

[grayjay]

And WHY can't the public search? Some new rule? Oh, let's all get together for a potluck instead and pass out flyers.

So unfair!!!!

I think professionals will bring more experience, and the public would bring more passion to the search. Maybe. The alternative that I see in a space that isn't meant to handle nearly the expected number of visitors in a single day, would be to turn many people away.

While the Jeep Safari is going on, the BLM sets up a roadblock and restricts access to some roads to use by permit only. I (don't exactly) wonder why.

At the potluck, I hope they entice many families to spend a week out in the desert. We're studying up for such a trip right now, and it's very appealing to us now that we found out about Topaz Mountain, not just mine shafts. There's also a wildlife refuge out there we didn't know about before. It's 600 miles for us each way, not counting the searching.

 

[RayO]

Thanks for the link to some abandoned mines.

Does anyone know if the mines are sealed or open?
Would any on the mines/closures need a blow-torch or cutting torch to open them?

Are they locked with a chain and lock, steel doors, wooden doors, just how are the mines made safe from animals and tourists getting inside?
Does anyone have a guess why Josh would have needed to rent such an odd thing in the middle of winter??

I don't claim to be an expert on this but from what I have seen hiking around Colorado and Utah and poking around the internet they often seal horizontal shafts by just backfilling with rocks and dirt, maybe cement. The vertical ones seem to be protected by metal grates and maybe a fence around it.

 

[KBH5]

I read a comment the other day somewhere (I think underneath a media article or something) that was given by some guy who'd been out in the west desert last year. He was out there with some buddies and they came across a huge gaping hole in the ground (vertical mine shaft)...no blocks, doors, signs, grates, or anything. It was just there. He said it was about 10' x 10' across. They poured gasoline in an empty milk jug, stuck a rag in it, lit it, and dropped the thing. It was an entire minute before they saw it hit bottom.

 

[RubyRed]

Here is a better alternative, then a potluck and handing out flyers in WVC, which seems totally useless.
Spread the word about this search, this family needs help

Posted by Laytonian

URGENT - Search for Steven, Apr 10th
Steven Koecher
Henderson, Nevada
I
just received this from Steven's cousin, KC Naegle:

Hey!

I'm finally not the last to know something! It
was a close thing though.

Saturday April 10 there is going to be a search for
Steven near the Henderson airport around 9 am.

Apparently there was a tip that Steven's body
could be found in that area and either le or our
current pi are/is asking for help.

Spread the word where ever you think it would
be helpful! Thanks! KC"

More info here:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5022173&postcount=65"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NV NV-Steven T. Koecher, 30, Henderson MSG 13 Dec 09 thread #9[/ame]

 

[izehnder]

I read about her case in my Sunday paper today...how heartbreaking and disgusting...we have another child missing. What in the world are parents to do now days? Beside GPS under the kids skin or not letting them have any freedom at all....just tell them to run and scream like H?

This is an excellent article on how to handle a non-orgainized search. I'm bookmarking it. Kudos to Weld County Sheriff in Colorado.

Hope Isabelle can get this info to someone on Susan's case and get it out to the public! Isabelle----can you do this?


ETA: I'd much rather see the flyers with the basic info about Susan with the information listed HOW
people can help in the search by the methods listed by the Sheriff's Dept in Co. Give people a list and let them search in their city, town, county and highways/roads that week-end instead of a munchie get together. People need to be out looking for her--not sharing gardenig tips. I don't understand this thinking...sorry. People in WVC know about Susan missing. What good are these flyers going to do there...get more info to the public of what and how to search.

I've written an article about this and started a new thread called "Ideas of where the public can search on April 10 and beyond".

Thanks for the idea of sharing this with my readers.

Isabelle

 

[izehnder]

Is this for real??

I think their hearts were in the right place. Since the search was closed to the public I believe organizers were hoping to provide the public a place to get together that day to do something else.

I think it was tough coming up with something so quickly, and so the idea of passing out fliers came up with a pot-luck afterward so everyone would have a chance to talk and get to know each other. If I were closer I would have loved to meet some of the people I've gotten to know online and via phone.

At least now we have the new search tips from Weld County Sheriff's in Colorado with some great ideas for people everywhere.

Isabelle

 

[GrandmaTo4]

I read a comment the other day somewhere (I think underneath a media article or something) that was given by some guy who'd been out in the west desert last year. He was out there with some buddies and they came across a huge gaping hole in the ground (vertical mine shaft)...no blocks, doors, signs, grates, or anything. It was just there. He said it was about 10' x 10' across. They poured gasoline in an empty milk jug, stuck a rag in it, lit it, and dropped the thing. It was an entire minute before they saw it hit bottom.

(b&ubm)

I believe the adventurers were exaggerating the long time period, (a full minute) it took for the milk jug to hit the bottom of the hole -- OR the jug fell into an earthquake crevasse.

IMO, IF the flaming jug took an entire minute to reach the bottom, it certainly did not fall into a primitive man-made mine shaft.

My college basic physics is pretty rusty, but here's what I remember:

The general gravitational speed of free-fall is 32 feet per second, with no resistance.

During each second of fall the instantaneous speed of the object increases by an additional approximate 32' per second. This gain in speed per second is the acceleration.

The formula for finding the distance an object would fall is:

Distance = 1/2 (x) Gravitational speed (x) time/squared

The following shows the basic math steps to determine the distance to the bottom of the hole when one minute is the time from top to bottom.

Distance = 1/2 (x) 32' per sec (x) 60 seconds/squared

Distance = 1/2 (x) 32 (x) 3,600

Distance = 1/2 (x) 115,200

Distance to the bottom of the hole = 57,600 feet or 10.9 MILES

I doubt if the posters could have seen the flaming milk jug hit the bottom of the hole if the jug traveled 10 miles into the Earth. I doubt if they would have seen it if the jug traveled even ONE mile to the bottom.

moo

 

[Melanie]

Is it just me, or are most bodies found by complete strangers. The keystone cops (in this case) could use a lot of help finding Susan, and arresting that no-good-spouse of hers. I have no doubt that one day someone will find her body - but it probably won't be the police.

MOO

MEL

 

[hollyblue]

I've written an article about this and started a new thread called "Ideas of where the public can search on April 10 and beyond".

Thanks for the idea of sharing this with my readers.

Isabelle

TYVM Isabelle for getting this info out--not just for Susan, but anyone who has a loved one missing. Kudos.

 

[grayjay]

(b&ubm)

I believe the adventurers were exaggerating the long time period, (a full minute) it took for the milk jug to hit the bottom of the hole -- OR the jug fell into an earthquake crevasse.

IMO, IF the flaming jug took an entire minute to reach the bottom, it certainly did not fall into a primitive man-made mine shaft.

My college basic physics is pretty rusty, but here's what I remember:

The general gravitational speed of free-fall is 32 feet per second, with no resistance.

During each second of fall the instantaneous speed of the object increases by an additional approximate 32' per second. This gain in speed per second is the acceleration.

The formula for finding the distance an object would fall is:

Distance = 1/2 (x) Gravitational speed (x) time/squared

The following shows the basic math steps to determine the distance to the bottom of the hole when one minute is the time from top to bottom.

Distance = 1/2 (x) 32' per sec (x) 60 seconds/squared

Distance = 1/2 (x) 32 (x) 3,600

Distance = 1/2 (x) 115,200

Distance to the bottom of the hole = 57,600 feet or 10.9 MILES

I doubt if the posters could have seen the flaming milk jug hit the bottom of the hole if the jug traveled 10 miles into the Earth. I doubt if they would have seen it if the jug traveled even ONE mile to the bottom.

moo

LOL Gotta love the statistics. I don't think they're talking about a brick, and that would have to mean there's an updraft, right? It sounds to me like what we learn is that a milk jug behaves more like a feather than it does like a brick.

Even if they exaggerate greatly, and it took three seconds, that's still one very deep hole to have left open like that.

 

[PickieChickie]

I read about her case in my Sunday paper today...how heartbreaking and disgusting...we have another child missing. What in the world are parents to do now days? Beside GPS under the kids skin or not letting them have any freedom at all....just tell them to run and scream like H?

This is an excellent article on how to handle a non-orgainized search. I'm bookmarking it. Kudos to Weld County Sheriff in Colorado.

Hope Isabelle can get this info to someone on Susan's case and get it out to the public! Isabelle----can you do this?


ETA: I'd much rather see the flyers with the basic info about Susan with the information listed HOW
people can help in the search by the methods listed by the Sheriff's Dept in Co. Give people a list and let them search in their city, town, county and highways/roads that week-end instead of a munchie get together. People need to be out looking for her--not sharing gardenig tips. I don't understand this thinking...sorry. People in WVC know about Susan missing. What good are these flyers going to do there...get more info to the public of what and how to search.

It would be fair to assume that Susan Powell was in the back of the van covered with something. So, what good is it going to do to pass out flyers like have been used in the past?

What people need to see is Josh Powell's face and photos of the children. Law enforcement needs to know who spotted Josh Powell and the children between 5:00 PM Sunday, December 6, 2009 and 5:00 PM Monday, December 7, 2009.

Why they are afraid to spread around a flyer featuring a photo of Josh Powell asking anyone who saw him during these hours, or doing anything suspicious, for that matter, is beyond me.

The past excuse was that the Cox's didn't want to upset Josh so they would be able to maintain their relationship with Susan and Josh Powell's children, Charlie (5) and Braden (3).

WHAT IS THE EXCUSE NOW?

 

[hollyblue]

It would be fair to assume that Susan Powell was in the back of the van covered with something. So, what good is it going to do to pass out flyers like have been used in the past?

What people need to see is Josh Powell's face and photos of the children. Law enforcement needs to know who spotted Josh Powell and the children between 5:00 PM Sunday, December 6, 2009 and 5:00 PM Monday, December 7, 2009.

Why they are afraid to spread around a flyer featuring a photo of Josh Powell asking anyone who saw him during these hours, or doing anything suspicious, for that matter, is beyond me.

The past excuse was that the Cox's didn't want to upset Josh so they would be able to maintain their relationship with Susan and Josh Powell's children, Charlie (5) and Braden (3).

WHAT IS THE EXCUSE NOW?

Maybe legal consequences Pickie.

 

[izehnder]

Maybe legal consequences Pickie.

Agreed, Hollyblue. The family wants her found more than anyone else, I'm sure. I'm not sure any of us can imagine what they are really going through. If they say there's a reason to hold off I tend to think we should respect their wishes. After all ...... it is their daughter.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Maybe legal consequences Pickie.

What possible legal consequence could there be?

Do you honestly think "no talk" Joshy would file a lawsuit against someone? That would be the best thing in the world that could happen. He would have to testify under oath in court and back up his story. It would never happen.

There is no explaining what has been done in this case and what hasn't been done.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Agreed, Hollyblue. The family wants her found more than anyone else, I'm sure. I'm not sure any of us can imagine what they are really going through. If they say there's a reason to hold off I tend to think we should respect their wishes. After all ...... it is their daughter.

JMO but i feel there is something really wrong with this family and the way they are going about things.

Thank god we are a society that does not leave it up to the wishes of a family how a search is to be conducted or a murder investigated.

 

[hollyblue]

Dr. Fessel: I am no legal expert by a looong shot. But if he hasn't been convicted and just a POI, could the family bring up defamation of character of some kind if his pic was on a search flier? I don't think he would have to tesitfy to anything actually. Not sure of this...just thinking out loud.

I too am perplexed at the search situation. I'm not familiar with the area, so maybe it is a safety concern....but why open it up for recreation if it's so dangerous? Sort of like Giant City State Park???

We now have the same situation in Steven Koecher's case. They are having a search for his remains, upon a tip, but no media "outing" of it as of yet--just FB and WS. I don't understand how the public is asked to help find someone and then when a search is announced--it's handled with kid gloves. It sends my hinky meter into orbit, but as said, it's their daughter and son.

 

[izehnder]

Recent Examiner.com articles re ground search effort for Susan Cox Powell:

Experts gearing up for April 10 search for Susan Cox Powell (Slideshow)

April 9, 2010 - Teams are gearing up for the first organized volunteer ground search effort in the case of missing Utah mom, Susan Cox Powell... click here for article.

Volunteer equipment list for Susan Cox Powell April 10 ground search

April 9, 2010 - Search organizers for the April 10 volunteer ground search effort for Susan Cox Powell provided a list of items they required searcher bring when searching in Simpson Springs... click here for article

The decision to close the April 10 search to the public; public search tips

April 9, 2010 - A group of four individuals came together to organize what was to be a mass volunteer ground search effort in Susan's case. It was estimated they would have between 200-2,000 searchers, which alarmed police and local sheriffs due mostly to safety and liability issues... click here for article.

Strategic Tactical Group's role in the April 10 volunteer ground search for Susan Cox Powell

April 9, 2010 - Professionals will be combing Utah's West Desert Saturday for clues into the disappearance of 28-year old Susan Cox Powell. One of the groups planning to assist in the search is Strategic Tactical Group... click here for article.

April 10 search, what to do if a searcher finds a body

April 9, 2010 - Linda Osborne, who has been searching for Susan Cox Powell since she went missing early December, provided the following information to Examiner.com about what to do if a searcher finds the remains of a body while searching for Susan ... click here for article.


Ground searches Saturday for two missing Utahans, Steven Koecher and Susan Cox Powell

April 10, 2010 - (Slideshow) Two desert ground searches, one in Utah, one in Nevada, are planned Saturday for both Susan Cox Powell, 28, and Steven Koecher, 30 ... click here for article.

 

[RayO]

(b&ubm)

I believe the adventurers were exaggerating the long time period, (a full minute) it took for the milk jug to hit the bottom of the hole -- OR the jug fell into an earthquake crevasse.

IMO, IF the flaming jug took an entire minute to reach the bottom, it certainly did not fall into a primitive man-made mine shaft.

My college basic physics is pretty rusty, but here's what I remember:

The general gravitational speed of free-fall is 32 feet per second, with no resistance.

During each second of fall the instantaneous speed of the object increases by an additional approximate 32' per second. This gain in speed per second is the acceleration.

The formula for finding the distance an object would fall is:

Distance = 1/2 (x) Gravitational speed (x) time/squared

The following shows the basic math steps to determine the distance to the bottom of the hole when one minute is the time from top to bottom.

Distance = 1/2 (x) 32' per sec (x) 60 seconds/squared

Distance = 1/2 (x) 32 (x) 3,600

Distance = 1/2 (x) 115,200

Distance to the bottom of the hole = 57,600 feet or 10.9 MILES

I doubt if the posters could have seen the flaming milk jug hit the bottom of the hole if the jug traveled 10 miles into the Earth. I doubt if they would have seen it if the jug traveled even ONE mile to the bottom.

moo

True, one minute is actually a very long time for something to fall. I supect they didn't actual count 60 secs, but it was more than a few seconds.

One thing missing from your calculation is something called the "terminal fall speed". An object will accelerate until the gravitational force is balanced by the air frictional forces which generally go up by the square of the speed of the object and are related to its surface area. The terminal velocity is function of weight and surface area (steel ball high weight, low area, vs. parachute, low weight very large area).