"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand? #2

[USARDOG]

....I also believe when Casey found Caylee with her mouth open and she couldn't close it because rigor mortis was setting in, she used duct tape and a heart. In my opinion I believe it was part of her mental illness, most of us can't understand. I think Caylees eyes were closed. This is JMO.

Here is the entire case:

http://www.5dca.org/Opinions/Opin2004/071204/5D03-1906.op.pdf

Your post Edited for brevity.

KC "found" Caylee? How did that happen, Caylee was lost? Caylee was in the pool?

KC's mental illness? Where is that diagnosed? I missed that post, please post a link.

I have seen a lot of dead people, and don't ever remember seeing one with their mouth open... Eyes open yes, mouth, no. Sorry, my personal experience prevents me from seeing this as a viable option.

PrincessRose made a statement about a band being placed around a dead person's head and jaw to prevent the mouth from opening. Having worked in hospitals, one would think I would have seen such a band. Having dissected cadavers, one would think I might have seen evidence of such a band. I have not.

 

[USARDOG]

Rigor Mortis, a stiffening of the muscles, usually starts to take place at around 3 hours after someone is dead with full rigor occuring at about 12 hours after death. After the 12 hour mark the rigor slowly ceases and at around 72 hours rigor disappears.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_does_it_take_before_rigor_mortis_sets_in

If you will notice, it does not mention contraction of the muscles, only stiffening, becuse contraction requires ATP, and energy. Also, if the jaw were to be opened by rigor, all the other muscles in the body would also be contracting, and the body would end up in a contorted position. This does not happen.

 

[Wudge]

Dr G said the tape was applied "before decomposition." I googled every way I could think of and all the results I got agreed that decomposition of animal tissue "begins at death." If that is true then Dr G basically said the tape was applied before death. Dr G did not reveal all in her autopsy report. We have no measurements of anything (including the pieces of tape). We know only the general placement placement of the tape ~ no specifics. While her autopsy reveals many important facts it also omits many. I think she chose her words carefully. . . But I think she and her autopsy will hold up well under questioning. She is highly regarded in her field and this is far from her first trial. She knew when she wrote her report what to expect at trial and I believe that was her reason for her careful wording.


If the tape was applied before decomposition/death then we do have evidence of premeditation; especially 3, mind you, 3 layers of tape. moo

What evidence ties the duct tape to Casey?

 

[Wudge]

The determination of the higher court which reviewed Huck's case is that it is not reasonable or logical to put duct tape over another human mouth except to make the other human stop screaming or breathing. I challenge anyone to find even ONE instance of a defendant successfully using the excuse that the "duct taping" happened after death.

Defendants, Brent Huck, Florida; Brookey West, Nevada and Kenneth Padgett, Alaska, tried to say it happened that way. The victim's cause of death in Huck's and West's cases could not conclusively be determined in any of the above cases because of decompostion. (West's victim was found 3 years after death.) Padgett's victim, like Caylee, wasn't found for months, but because of the tape, the medical examiner ruled death by suffocation. West said she'd panicked after her victim's death and didn't report it. She'd tied plastic over her victim's mouth as a shroud to keep her mouth closed. Padgett said he panicked over his victim's death because he had an outstanding warrant. He taped over his victim's mouth and nose after her death so he wouldn't have to look at her. None of the juries bought Huck's, West's or Padgett's explanations and all three were convicted of 1st Degree Murder. http://peninsulaclarion.com/stories/010602/ala_010602ala0100001.shtml, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/science/12file-fly.html

I challenge anyone to find a single, just one, instance of a parent in this century taping over their child's mouth and nose for any reason except to kill the baby.

moo

For the record, I hold the evidence that we know of is insufficient to support the murder one charge or the aggravated child abuse charges or the manslaughter charge. Accordingly, Casey should be found not guilty on those charges.

Regarding 'Huck', motions-in-limine have been underway for some time, and I have yet to hear that prosecutors argued to the Judge that 'Huck' should foreclose on a trial in this case, because the facts and evidence in this case are the same as in 'Huck', and, as such, the conclusion must necessarily be that Casey must be found 'guilty' of some felony based on 'Huck and that some degree of felony murder must then attach. (You have to love it ... chuckle)

Interestingly, I believe the ruling in 'Huck' referenced the fact that both the victim's eyes AND the victim's mouth had been covered with duct tape. As best I know, Caylee's eyes were not covered with duct tape [small footnote: nor were here hands bound].

Further, as best I know, there's no evidence that ties the duct tape to Casey. Like yours truly, some people would find this to be a clear and highly significant lack of evidence.

 

[robotdog]

since we dont know all the evidence... at this time

but based on the evidence that we know and of her actions

i would say its a sure bet

1. she is guilty

2. she will be found guilty


adios KC

 

[Gaia713]

She states that it was "clearly" placed before decomposition. To me, this is something she could see with the naked eye, but she didn't elaborate on how she concluded this. It was probably as far as she could go in her analysis without further lab testing. Surely, there's some sort of testing that can take her analysis further and prove placement before death. They brought the death penalty back 4 months after finding Caylee. If it was just the tape and no other evidence related to the tape that made them bring back the DP, why did they wait 4 months? We haven't seen the fiber results from the tape so it's reasonable that there could be other evidence related to the tape we haven't seen.

I think she's guilty of premeditated murder because of the tape. Not because it's there but because I think there's evidence regarding the tape that we haven't seen.

I would think there would be skn cells on the sticky side of the tape if it were placed before death. The defense is relying on word games when they say there was no tape on the mouth. Technically, there was no mouth left for the tape to adhere to. If the ends of the tape were still attached to the hair on the facial sides of the skull, it's not beyond reason that it was attached to the face at some time. If the tape were attached to the hair across the back of the skull, it would be harder to prove.

Juries are not stupid.

 

[Jolynna]

For the record, I hold the evidence that we know of is insufficient to support the murder one charge or the aggravated child abuse charges or the manslaughter charge. Accordingly, Casey should be found not guilty on those charges.

Regarding 'Huck', motions-in-limine have been underway for some time, and I have yet to hear that prosecutors argued to the Judge that 'Huck' should foreclose on a trial in this case, because the facts and evidence in this case are the same as in 'Huck', and, as such, the conclusion must necessarily be that Casey must be found 'guilty' of some felony based on 'Huck and that some degree of felony murder must then attach. (You have to love it ... chuckle)

Interestingly, I believe the ruling in 'Huck' referenced the fact that both the victim's eyes AND the victim's mouth had been covered with duct tape. As best I know, Caylee's eyes were not covered with duct tape [small footnote: nor were here hands bound].

Further, as best I know, there's no evidence that ties the duct tape to Casey. Like yours truly, some people would find this to be a clear and highly significant lack of evidence.

My point is, no parent has ever taped over a baby's mouth and nose except to kill the child. Other killers have tried to use the defense. They were convicted of First Degree Murder. I challenge you or anyone else to come up with a single example of benign duct taping up another human's mouth and nose, dead or alive, in this century.

I don't see a lack of evidence placing KC with the disposal of a dead Caylee.

Both of KC's parents say there USED to be a laundry bag exactly like the one Caylee's skull was in, in Caylee's room. It used to have balls in it. Now the balls are in a storeage shed. The ball/laundry bag is missing, just like a Pooh blanket from the Anthony house is missing.

It defies logic that an abductor would steal Caylee, then break into her grandparent's house, snag Caylee's ball/laundry bag, one of the rare rolls of the Anthony's Henkel duct tape (for later taping) and Caylee's Pooh blanket. The abductor would also have to have swiped Caylee's "Big Trouble" t-shirt and striped shorts (both of which Caylee has been pictured in wearing, both of which are missing from the Anthony house and neither or which are the clothes KC said Caylee was wearing when she was "abducted".)

There was a substance consistent with adipocere wiped all over napkins found in a trash bag in KC's trunk. There will be testimony from the body farm that there was decomposition in the trunk. Casey's mother, Simon L., George, Yuri, all of the sheriff's office that smelled the car, and KC herself say KC's car smelled like death.

Then there is KC deliberate "cover-up" of whatever happened and KC purposefully leading LE in the wrong direction. That can't be explained if the defense says somebody else "did the taping".

Sure you can debate each point. I'm sure KC's defense will. But, the state isn't putting all of their eggs into any one piece of circumstancial evidence. I think they've got a lot of baskets. The rate of death penalty reversals in Florida is extremely high, but, to me, that says Florida juries aren't afraid to dole out the ultimate sentence. I don't think KC will ever be executed. But, I don't think she'll be out on the streets before menopause, if ever, either.


jmo

 

[ziggy]

Not to mention keeping it simple: Casey was the last one in charge of Caylee...the last one with her. Then she tells a lot of fanciful lies (which the jury will believe to be lies and a cover up) and the child is found deceased, "wrapped" and very close to home in a place Casey is familiar with.

It

is

just

too
easy...

I don't think the jury will have any problem seeing through the circus antics of the defense.

 

[Wudge]

My point is, no parent has ever taped over a baby's mouth and nose except to kill the child. Other killers have tried to use the defense. They were convicted of First Degree Murder. I challenge you or anyone else to come up with a single example of benign duct taping up another human's mouth and nose, dead or alive, in this century.

I don't see a lack of evidence placing KC with the disposal of a dead Caylee.

Both of KC's parents say there USED to be a laundry bag exactly like the one Caylee's skull was in, in Caylee's room. It used to have balls in it. Now the balls are in a storeage shed. The ball/laundry bag is missing, just like a Pooh blanket from the Anthony house is missing.

It defies logic that an abductor would steal Caylee, then break into her grandparent's house, snag Caylee's ball/laundry bag, one of the rare rolls of the Anthony's Henkel duct tape (for later taping) and Caylee's Pooh blanket. The abductor would also have to have swiped Caylee's "Big Trouble" t-shirt and striped shorts (both of which Caylee has been pictured in wearing, both of which are missing from the Anthony house and neither or which are the clothes KC said Caylee was wearing when she was "abducted".)

There was a substance consistent with adipocere wiped all over napkins found in a trash bag in KC's trunk. There will be testimony from the body farm that there was decomposition in the trunk. Casey's mother, Simon L., George, Yuri, all of the sheriff's office that smelled the car, and KC herself say KC's car smelled like death.

Then there is KC deliberate "cover-up" of whatever happened and KC purposefully leading LE in the wrong direction. That can't be explained if the defense says somebody else "did the taping".

Sure you can debate each point. I'm sure KC's defense will. But, the state isn't putting all of their eggs into any one piece of circumstancial evidence. I think they've got a lot of baskets. The rate of death penalty reversals in Florida is extremely high, but, to me, that says Florida juries aren't afraid to dole out the ultimate sentence. I don't think KC will ever be executed. But, I don't think she'll be out on the streets before menopause, if ever, either.


jmo

First, I don't know what highly reliable evidence you believe places Casey at the location where Caylee's body was found, but I know of none.

Second, you're 'begging the question' (a logical fallacy) that Casey murdered (murder one charge) Caylee, for you are assuming what you wish to prove; i.e., that Casey committed a premeditated murder.

Off of that logical fallacy, you then place the duct tape in Casey's hands. So you do this off a premise that is based on a logical fallacy, which means the derivation of your holding (duck tape placed in Casey's hands) is flawed. Moreover, you comfortably place the duct tape in Casey's hands even though there is no evidence that ties Casey to the specific roll of duct from which the tape on Caylee was cut (or torn).

I recommend focusing on building your argument that Casey committed a premeditated murder by first building highly reliable premises from inculpatory evidence that's in the public domain.

Third, I'm not sure what you are using for the rate of death penalty reversals in Florida and your holding that they are high. However, by my measure, that goes or would go against the reliability of jury verdicts in Florida. Bottom line, I doubt it's something that the people in Florida would feel proud of or want to be broadcasted.

 

[wonders]

For the record, I hold the evidence that we know of is insufficient to support the murder one charge or the aggravated child abuse charges or the manslaughter charge. Accordingly, Casey should be found not guilty on those charges.

Regarding 'Huck', motions-in-limine have been underway for some time, and I have yet to hear that prosecutors argued to the Judge that 'Huck' should foreclose on a trial in this case, because the facts and evidence in this case are the same as in 'Huck', and, as such, the conclusion must necessarily be that Casey must be found 'guilty' of some felony based on 'Huck and that some degree of felony murder must then attach. (You have to love it ... chuckle)

Interestingly, I believe the ruling in 'Huck' referenced the fact that both the victim's eyes AND the victim's mouth had been covered with duct tape. As best I know, Caylee's eyes were not covered with duct tape [small footnote: nor were here hands bound].
Further, as best I know, there's no evidence that ties the duct tape to Casey. Like yours truly, some people would find this to be a clear and highly significant lack of evidence.

BBM

We do NOT know if Caylee's hands were bound or not. We will probably never know.
Can you please tell us why you keep saying Caylee's hands weren't bound?

 

[Brini]

No question- guilty. This because of a literal mountain of circumstantial evidence. However we nitpick the evidence, some facts are utterly incontestable:

1) Caylee was in KC's care and control. No one elses. Period.

2) KC did not report Caylee missing-- ever.

3) KC exerted her prodigious talent for mendacity in a blatant attempt to mislead and balk the investigation. She literally lied about everything, except her name.

4) The decomp was in KC's car-- no one elses.

5) KC's behavior, while she claimed that Caylee was missing, was celebratory.

6) KC made no attempt to search for Caylee. KC made no attempt to plead with the "kidnapper" through the media.

7) Thus, NONE of KC's behavior was that of a normal, caring, nother who was worried sick about her baby.

Even if we discuss NO other evidence, that has been more than enough to convict other killers. Recent example, the oft-cited SP.

The fact that the oft-cited Huck survived appeal all the way to the Supremes gives precident for at least aggravated child abuse, which constitutes Murder I, as the child died.

Until those facts remain unexplained (and they will, despite the defense's posturing) no one ELSE had motive, method, and opportunity. Especially opportunity.

SODDI isn't an option, without explaining who, where, and how the SOD got Caylee away from KC. Also, no jury will buy that KC is taking the rap for anyone else.

So.. It looks to me like a slam dunk.

Bottom line-- NOBODY had access to Caylee EXCEPT through KC. Nothing can change that fact.

 

[reeseeva]

BBM

We do NOT know if Caylee's hands were bound or not. We will probably never know.
Can you please tell us why you keep saying Caylee's hands weren't bound?

I also would like to know why, as it seems Wudge keeps this out there, and this has been gone over and over, there has been no evidence, as to if they were or were not.

There are other, larger pieces of duct tape, Q318, (13.5" x 2") that could have bound her hands, and/or feet that have not been addressed as yet!

 

[Wudge]

BBM

We do NOT know if Caylee's hands were bound or not. We will probably never know.
Can you please tell us why you keep saying Caylee's hands weren't bound?

Because I'm assessing the evidence and there's no evidence that supports Caylee's hands having been tied. Moreover, in the absence of such evidence, the jury could not deliberate on the possibility that her hands were tied nor conclude that her hands were tied.

Some posters in this forum haved speculated that Caylee hands were tied. Other posters here have used the 'if her hands were tied' approach to advance their theory or belief. However, neither of these approaches are evidence, so they're not worth anything in a trial.

FWIW

HTH

 

[christee]

Because I'm assessing the evidence and there's no evidence that supports Caylee's hands having been tied. Moreover, in the absence of such evidence, the jury could not deliberate on the possibility that her hands were tied nor conclude that her hands were tied.

Some posters in this forum haved speculated that Caylee hands were tied. Other posters here have used the 'if her hands were tied' approach to advance their theory or belief. However, neither of these approaches are evidence, so they're not worth anything in a trial.

FWIW

HTH

Since WS is not a courtroom we are free to debate, analyze, dissect, discuss, argue, examine, and "speculate" any piece of evidence concerning this case. I have yet to hear anyone claim they know with absolute certainty that a piece of known evidence is proof of KC's guilt.
I'm not sure why the same questions are being frustratingly answered over and over. The answers given are from some very knowledgeable people. Anything more definitive will come out at trial.
MHO :angel:

 

[Muzikman]

For the record, I hold the evidence that we know of is insufficient to support the murder one charge or the aggravated child abuse charges or the manslaughter charge. Accordingly, Casey should be found not guilty on those charges.

Regarding 'Huck', motions-in-limine have been underway for some time, and I have yet to hear that prosecutors argued to the Judge that 'Huck' should foreclose on a trial in this case, because the facts and evidence in this case are the same as in 'Huck', and, as such, the conclusion must necessarily be that Casey must be found 'guilty' of some felony based on 'Huck and that some degree of felony murder must then attach. (You have to love it ... chuckle)

Interestingly, I believe the ruling in 'Huck' referenced the fact that both the victim's eyes AND the victim's mouth had been covered with duct tape. As best I know, Caylee's eyes were not covered with duct tape [small footnote: nor were here hands bound].

Further, as best I know, there's no evidence that ties the duct tape to Casey. Like yours truly, some people would find this to be a clear and highly significant lack of evidence.

For the record, I hold the evidence that we know of IS sufficient to support the charges. Accordingly, Casey will be found guilty on those charges.

BBM - Wudge, the Motions in Limine are for the FRAUD trial, not the murder trial. In addition, they were filed Oct 12 - less than 2 weeks ago, not "underway for some time." Setting the record straight. This makes me question how well you are keeping up with the facts, discovery and motions filed in this case in order to state your opinions.

Further, it appears highly likely that the rare Henkel duct tape emanated from the house that Casey lived in with Caylee, and there is not a "clear and significant lack of evidence." As stated in other threads, there should be even more forthcoming about this issue.

Common sense and logic as well as forensics will clearly tie Casey directly to the demise of Caylee. I believe that the defense will not be able to create "reasonable doubt" in the minds of any sane juror.

 

[sleutherontheside]

For the record, I hold the evidence that we know of IS sufficient to support the charges. Accordingly, Casey will be found guilty on those charges.

BBM - Wudge, the Motions in Limine are for the FRAUD trial, not the murder trial. In addition, they were filed Oct 12 - less than 2 weeks ago, not "underway for some time." Setting the record straight. This makes me question how well you are keeping up with the facts, discovery and motions filed in this case in order to state your opinions.

Further, it appears highly likely that the rare Henkel duct tape emanated from the house that Casey lived in with Caylee, and there is not a "clear and significant lack of evidence." As stated in other threads, there should be even more forthcoming about this issue.

Common sense and logic as well as forensics will clearly tie Casey directly to the demise of Caylee. I believe that the defense will not be able to create "reasonable doubt" in the minds of any sane juror.

:dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance:
I would have just applauded, but it would not have demonstrated "elation" near as much as a "dance". This has been a shameless plug for "logic and reasoning" you may now return to your scheduled programming.

 

[JBean]

PSA:
No one is under any obligation to post and if one posters viewpoints are not in line with yours and you are satisfied with your opinion and viewpoint and evidence, then keep scrolling.

I will never understand why when an alternate opinion is posed, some feel compelled to respond and then complain that thay "have" to respond and keep going over the same material.
There is tons of material on this forum that I am not inclined to revisit. So, I skip it and move on to topics that imo need more analysis or I am not satisfied with personally.
If you do not want to revisit material that is old or complete to you, then scroll right by or feel free to respond but don't complain about it.

All points of view are welcome here at WS as long as they are presented respectfully and other members are not attacked. But what I am seeing is members with different view points bullied off threads as though they have no business having a different opinion.

 

[Wudge]

For the record, I hold the evidence that we know of IS sufficient to support the charges. Accordingly, Casey will be found guilty on those charges.

BBM - Wudge, the Motions in Limine are for the FRAUD trial, not the murder trial. In addition, they were filed Oct 12 - less than 2 weeks ago, not "underway for some time." Setting the record straight. This makes me question how well you are keeping up with the facts, discovery and motions filed in this case in order to state your opinions.

Further, it appears highly likely that the rare Henkel duct tape emanated from the house that Casey lived in with Caylee, and there is not a "clear and significant lack of evidence." As stated in other threads, there should be even more forthcoming about this issue.

Common sense and logic as well as forensics will clearly tie Casey directly to the demise of Caylee. I believe that the defense will not be able to create "reasonable doubt" in the minds of any sane juror.

Casey might have placed Caylee where the body was found, but no evidence that we know of places her at that location. Most importantly, neither is there evidence we know of that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Caylee died as a result of murder or manslaughter.

As regards the duct tape, what evidence are you using to conclude that: "it appears highly likely that the rare [alleged to be rare?] Henkel duct tape emanated from the house that Casey lived in with Caylee"? As best I know, the tape on Caylee is not said to match any tape that was sourced from the house.

 

[Jolynna]

First, I don't know what highly reliable evidence you believe places Casey at the location where Caylee's body was found, but I know of none.

Second, you're 'begging the question' (a logical fallacy) that Casey murdered (murder one charge) Caylee, for you are assuming what you wish to prove; i.e., that Casey committed a premeditated murder.

Off of that logical fallacy, you then place the duct tape in Casey's hands. So you do this off a premise that is based on a logical fallacy, which means the derivation of your holding (duck tape placed in Casey's hands) is flawed. Moreover, you comfortably place the duct tape in Casey's hands even though there is no evidence that ties Casey to the specific roll of duct from which the tape on Caylee was cut (or torn).

I recommend focusing on building your argument that Casey committed a premeditated murder by first building highly reliable premises from inculpatory evidence that's in the public domain.

Third, I'm not sure what you are using for the rate of death penalty reversals in Florida and your holding that they are high. However, by my measure, that goes or would go against the reliability of jury verdicts in Florida. Bottom line, I doubt it's something that the people in Florida would feel proud of or want to be broadcasted.

In response to the sentence I bolded.

Florida leads the nation in death penalty reversals. (http://www.abanet.org/moratorium/assessmentproject/florida/report.pdf page 11) Until fairly recently 80% of all death row convictions in Florida were reversed. http://www.truthinjustice.org/fla-deathrow.htm http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/List_of_reversed_death_sentences_-_United_States/id/1705808

 

[luvmygarden]

Like everyone said there is probably evidence we haven't seen from the state.
And of course the defense has their version of evidense they have she is innocent.
I have read here since july and read all opinions both ways.
I say GULTY. KC has never ever, ever been upset like a normal person about Caylees
dissappearance even after 31 days when it became public knowledge. After her little body was found we haven't heard one demand from the family or KC to find who did this to their baby. Never said they want this person found and punished. Never ever, ever acted like they are living in anguish and broken hearted.
I have seen them act like the ways I have mentioned regarding KC in jail and charged with the murder, Anguished and Broken hearted.
BUT not for Caylee. I am sure Caylee's grandpa could pass that test of emotion if he would stick up for Caylee instead of following the money with CA.
I probably live in my small world but am thankful I have never known anyone like this family. Rest in peace little Caylee, you are in a safe place now.