GA - Kendrick Johnson, 17, Suspicious Death, Jan. 10/11, 2013, #2

[ScarlettScarpetta]

My aunt is a gymnastic coach and deals with these mats all the time. I have a lot of questions for her about them when I see her.

 

[Tawny]

For me - the discrepancies between the autopsy reports is huge. The strangeness of KJ going all the way to the bottom of the mat. I don't see gravity as being the cause. The complaints from the ME about not being called right away and honestly, I still wonder about the internal organs. So far I have not been satisfied by any explanations of why they were disposed of.

Those are a few things that keep me from believing it was just an accident. I'm not saying those things can't be explained, I'm just saying I haven't seen anything yet that explains them to my satisfaction.

Salem

That makes sense. Personally, I see it at most as incompetence in all of those areas you mentioned (ME not being called, internal organs, etc), but I also acknowledge that those things would not sit well with me AT ALL if I were family of the deceased.

 

[gxm]

For me - the discrepancies between the autopsy reports is huge. The strangeness of KJ going all the way to the bottom of the mat. I don't see gravity as being the cause. The complaints from the ME about not being called right away and honestly, I still wonder about the internal organs. So far I have not been satisfied by any explanations of why they were disposed of.

Those are a few things that keep me from believing it was just an accident. I'm not saying those things can't be explained, I'm just saying I haven't seen anything yet that explains them to my satisfaction.

Salem

BBM.

This is something that many people keep mentioning, the seeming impossibility that KJ could slip that far into the mat. IMO, unfortunately KJ probably thought the same thing.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

BBM.

This is something that many people keep mentioning, the seeming impossibility that KJ could slip that far into the mat. IMO, unfortunately KJ probably thought the same thing.

It is not that I think it was not possible and it was, I think it was not Possible period. Watching the video of the kid with the noise check and the mat he was in, I don't think it is even possible for him to just slide in easily. I think it would have taken force and manipulation.

 

[noZme]

In response to a few recent comments:

Back in this thread there is a link where GBI said viscera deteriorates faster & where a level of decomposition is present, it is SOP to dispose that at autopsy. My friends, owners of 2 different funeral homes said that is not unusual at all. However, both said stuffing a body with old newspaper is cheap & not acceptable. The industry has products for that purpose.

Coroners in Georgia are usually funeral home employees, NOT medical professionals. By all reports, it was clear KJ had been dead for some time & investigators began their work. The coroner only had to be called to sign-off before the body was moved. There was no conspiracy! Cops were taking statements, photos & such, as well as working with school officials to explain to students, faculty, parents, media & the community what was happening at the school without causing panic.

Force and manipulation would have made it MORE difficult to stick a healthy, adult-sized, high school athlete into the center of a mat. Just a little resistance would make it impossible. And stuffing an unconscious, limp body into that hole seems quite unlikely to me.

The justice team had a lot to say about the death being ignored by the schools. Then it came out that there was a representative of the school who spoke at the funeral...,. also linked back in this thread.

<modsnip>

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

In response to a few recent comments:

Back in this thread there is a link where GBI said viscera deteriorates faster & where a level of decomposition is present, it is SOP to dispose that at autopsy. My friends, owners of 2 different funeral homes said that is not unusual at all. However, both said stuffing a body with old newspaper is cheap & not acceptable. The industry has products for that purpose.

Coroners in Georgia are usually funeral home employees, NOT medical professionals. By all reports, it was clear KJ had been dead for some time & investigators began their work. The coroner only had to be called to sign-off before the body was moved. There was no conspiracy! Cops were taking statements, photos & such, as well as working with school officials to explain to students, faculty, parents, media & the community what was happening at the school without causing panic.

Force and manipulation would have made it MORE difficult to stick a healthy, adult-sized, high school athlete into the center of a mat. Just a little resistance would make it impossible. And stuffing an unconscious, limp body into that hole seems quite unlikely to me.

[modsnip]

I don't know. Really. I can think of cases where things were declared an accident and then found to be a murder. Just had the one of the man who killed his wife and had it not been for her family pushing and pushing, He would still be free. I just don't know. I will have to see good evidence of accident.

 

[Yoda]

These were a few on the videos I found of kids getting stuck in mats. Fortunately others were around. It helps to see how difficult it was to get out. Jmo

http://youtu.be/_dFYcArAGos

http://youtu.be/LLStG8hK4oQ

http://youtu.be/MY1UcPBXwfE

http://youtu.be/ouYdg3Dbf_w

http://youtu.be/fOnSXub6Gg4

http://youtu.be/xiqfACjebvk

 

[momrids6]

BBM that is something he would have known before he even got in there, That is why I don't think he did this willingly. It makes no sense.
I Think the mat suspended him. I think he would have had to fight to go up or down so I don't see him slipping in.

with his head down and arms up, especially with long sleeves on, combined with gravity, he most certainly would slip in- the mats give somewhat ( foam backed carpeted top)- the link to the very mats in question is upthread. He was within the foam backing the way it was rolled. He most likely tried to back out- (his one bent arm), kicked, etc, and simply could not.

 

[Tawny]

I will have to see good evidence of accident.

Usually, it's the other way around. Evidence is generally needed to prove a crime. :twocents:

 

[BeginnersLuck]

For me - the discrepancies between the autopsy reports is huge. The strangeness of KJ going all the way to the bottom of the mat. I don't see gravity as being the cause. The complaints from the ME about not being called right away and honestly, I still wonder about the internal organs. So far I have not been satisfied by any explanations of why they were disposed of.

Those are a few things that keep me from believing it was just an accident. I'm not saying those things can't be explained, I'm just saying I haven't seen anything yet that explains them to my satisfaction.

Salem

I'm not sure if you've seen this video or not. Right around 1:00 in the video she really is starting to panic. She states that she's about to fall through down further in the mat, even though she is stuck and they can't pull her out.

[video=youtube;xiqfACjebvk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiqfACjebvk[/video]

Also, I have posted two different links previously that pertained to procedures at autopsy. Disposing of the organs in routine under certain circumstances. Both links said that either the organs are placed in a bag and put back in the body, or they are disposed of and the body is packed with some kind of material. Both links came from medical examiner sites. I think the organs are disposed of at times due to various circumstances. Decomp being one and I also wonder if it can have anything to do with them being replaced in the body in a bag and how that effects embalming and odor.

 

[noZme]

I don't know. Really. I can think of cases where things were declared an accident and then found to be a murder. Just had the one of the man who killed his wife and had it not been for her family pushing and pushing, He would still be free. I just don't know. I will have to see good evidence of accident.

Thanks for the reply. This is somewhat local to me & I have followed it in the media since day one. I only recently began reading about KJ on WS.( I find it better to avoid the crimes against children.) Thank goodness, we do not often hear of a child dying at school.

At first, I had concerns about kids joking around - the ultimate wedgie prank gone terribly wrong. Kids are quite inventive. But research through the months has answered my questions satisfactorily.

We all came here looking for answers & peace of mind that this child gets justice. It's natural to want to blame someone, for someone to have to pay for the loss of a young man. But, I am convinced that it was an accidental death.... bizarre circumstances we never heard before... yet, accidental. I wish he could have respect & dignity in death instead of this circus.

Leigh Touchton delved into every aspect of this case & independently explained the curiosities backed up with simple facts. I urge anyone who has difficulty accepting the rulings to read her notes. Maybe that will help you resolve the the doubts & have peace about what happened.


.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

with his head down and arms up, especially with long sleeves on, combined with gravity, he most certainly would slip in- the mats give somewhat ( foam backed carpeted top)- the link to the very mats in question is upthread. He was within the foam backing the way it was rolled. He most likely tried to back out- (his one bent arm), kicked, etc, and simply could not.

Sorry. I don't see this. I don't. I don't think he slipped in.

 

[ferretnurse]

Haven't posted in a while, but I thought I'd jump in with shoulder measurements. I had a friend measure my shoulder span with my arms at my sides, both raised, and one raised. My span with arms down was 16 in, both up 13 in, and one up about 14.5.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Usually, it's the other way around. Evidence is generally needed to prove a crime. :twocents:

You would think but in this case, I think they are going to have to prove it was an accident considering how it has all been handled so far. I think they need to come out and prove it was an accident forensically.

 

[gxm]

These were a few on the videos I found of kids getting stuck in mats. Fortunately others were around. It helps to see how difficult it was to get out. Jmo

http://youtu.be/_dFYcArAGos

http://youtu.be/LLStG8hK4oQ

http://youtu.be/MY1UcPBXwfE

http://youtu.be/ouYdg3Dbf_w

http://youtu.be/fOnSXub6Gg4

http://youtu.be/xiqfACjebvk

Well, these videos prove several things. 1) Rolled up mats are an "attractive nuisance" as kids, especially teens, have a tendency to play around on them. 2) They are a safety hazard because kids get stuck in them and can not extricate themselves without assistance. 3) The mats are heavy and difficult to move. 4) Teenage boys can fit inside the center ring.

 

[gxm]

It is not that I think it was not possible and it was, I think it was not Possible period. Watching the video of the kid with the noise check and the mat he was in, I don't think it is even possible for him to just slide in easily. I think it would have taken force and manipulation.

If it was impossible for KJ to worm his way into the mat while alive, it is even more impossible for someone to try to shove his inert body into the mat. That leaves only the scenario that he was killed or unconscious when he was rolled into the mat, and the mats rearranged and KJ placed in the center of the pile. The problem with this last scenario is the timeline. There just isn't enough time for this to occur. IMO, it is a fact that kids can get themselves into a rolled mat and become stuck as there is ample video evidence of this happening.

 

[vlpate]

I'm not sure if you've seen this video or not. Right around 1:00 in the video she really is starting to panic. She states that she's about to fall through down further in the mat, even though she is stuck and they can't pull her out.

cheerleading sleep over at destiny - YouTube

Also, I have posted two different links previously that pertained to procedures at autopsy. Disposing of the organs in routine under certain circumstances. Both links said that either the organs are placed in a bag and put back in the body, or they are disposed of and the body is packed with some kind of material. Both links came from medical examiner sites. I think the organs are disposed of at times due to various circumstances. Decomp being one and I also wonder if it can have anything to do with them being replaced in the body in a bag and how that effects embalming and odor.

If that video doesn't convince someone how quickly this can become a deadly situation, nothing will. I don't understand why these kids never just unroll the mats. What are they secured with, anyone know?

 

[vlpate]

If it was impossible for KJ to worm his way into the mat while alive, it is even more impossible for someone to try to shove his inert body into the mat. That leaves only the scenario that he was killed or unconscious when he was rolled into the mat, and the mats rearranged and KJ placed in the center of the pile. The problem with this last scenario is the timeline. There just isn't enough time for this to occur. IMO, it is a fact that kids can get themselves into a rolled mat and become stuck as there is ample video evidence of this happening.

and even though the tops of the mats can't be seen in the videos, they would be seen if moved and one rolled out to place a body in. Nothing so far has shown mats being moved around (on video tape).

 

[vlpate]

BBM.

This is something that many people keep mentioning, the seeming impossibility that KJ could slip that far into the mat. IMO, unfortunately KJ probably thought the same thing.

Not to be gross, but after 16 hours a lot of his bodily fluids were expelled through different means and his skin was slipping...no doubt making his descent further into the mat possible and why, when they turned the mat over, he slid partially out. When they saw him in the mat, they saw his socks closer to the edge than we see in the crime scene photos because they had already turned the mat over.

 

[vlpate]

For me - the discrepancies between the autopsy reports is huge. The strangeness of KJ going all the way to the bottom of the mat. I don't see gravity as being the cause. The complaints from the ME about not being called right away and honestly, I still wonder about the internal organs. So far I have not been satisfied by any explanations of why they were disposed of.

Those are a few things that keep me from believing it was just an accident. I'm not saying those things can't be explained, I'm just saying I haven't seen anything yet that explains them to my satisfaction.

Salem

Any theories on the organs? Not having them didn't inhibit either of the autopsies...the actual organs were autopsied by GBI and slides (tissue, etc) were used in the second (pretty typical). What would they have found if they had the actual organs that might indicate coverup that the external exams and tox screens would not have caught?

The discrepancy in the autopsies is why I'd like to see a coroner's inquest, to put it to rest, one way or the other. However, blunt force trauma does not equal murder, even if not self-inflicted. Had he been in a fight or had an injury in the days or weeks before the accident, there might still be signs of trauma. (link up thread)

As for gravity, with all due respect, he would not have remained suspended dead weight forever, gravity would definitely have taken him down once he lost consciousness and his entire body relaxed. Besides his shoulders, the only other obstacle would have been his hips...14" at the most wide? I don't know, just a guess.
JMO