GA GA - Shirley, 87, & Russell Dermond, 88, Putnam County, 2 May 2014 - # 3

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I have been on Sinclair all weekend this weekend. This case is all I can think about as we ski and fish with my kids. So tragic and so close to my old stomping grounds.


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Same here!

This seems far-fetched to me but this crime is so horrific; does anyone know how MS-13 operates? Would they leave a recognizable signature for all to identify? They would stand out like a sore thumb anywhere in the area, wouldn't they? I think there is a significant? immigrant population in the county working in the dairy farms but I have no idea from what county/countries and not even sure that would connect to MS-13 anyway.

Reaching here because nothing makes sense to me.
 
This is what I was trying to say last night when I got slammed and dunked.


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Even though unsubstantiated talk is not permitted,
I found that particular bit of info to be......very
intetesting.
 
Even though unsubstantiated talk is not permitted,

I found that particular bit of info to be......very

intetesting.


Wouldn't alligators be unsubstantiated? Just sayin


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Same here!



This seems far-fetched to me but this crime is so horrific; does anyone know how MS-13 operates? Would they leave a recognizable signature for all to identify? They would stand out like a sore thumb anywhere in the area, wouldn't they? I think there is a significant? immigrant population in the county working in the dairy farms but I have no idea from what county/countries and not even sure that would connect to MS-13 anyway.



Reaching here because nothing makes sense to me.


Very true about the dairy farms and migrant labor


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Same here!

This seems far-fetched to me but this crime is so horrific; does anyone know how MS-13 operates? Would they leave a recognizable signature for all to identify? They would stand out like a sore thumb anywhere in the area, wouldn't they? I think there is a significant? immigrant population in the county working in the dairy farms but I have no idea from what county/countries and not even sure that would connect to MS-13 anyway.

Reaching here because nothing makes sense to me.

City data has a pie chart regarding races in Eatonton
http://www.city-data.com/city/Eatonton-Georgia.html

Here is the city data link for Greensboro, Ga
http://www.city-data.com/city/Greensboro-Georgia.html
 
Wouldn't alligators be unsubstantiated? Just sayin


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That wasn't meant as a dig, OMB. I learn more by letting
people just talk. And, if you have been reading all the
threads, you'd understand the question about gators.
I live in FL and I know only too well their capabilities.
So go back and reread the threads before you enter in
your "opinion".
 
One last thought. Is it possible the beheading took place out of the killer's shame or embarrassement? Is it possible, in a fit of rage, something much beyond a whack on the head happened to Mr. Dermond? I won't go into detail, but I think we can all imagine several scenarios that would likely surpass killing someone in a fit of rage and progress into a sick scenario. Perhaps once the adrenaline wore off and the killer saw what he had done, he had a moment of contrition and shame? After all, he left Mr. Dermond to be found but he hid Mrs. Dermond. Perhaps there is a shred of...a hate to say decency, because clearly that's is totally the wrong word in this scenario...but that he was embarrassed that he killed a woman, a very nice woman. And perhaps did something that surprised even him to Mr. Dermond. And so he panicked and tried to hide that as well.

Someone mentioned early on that maybe Mr. Dermond was lucky enough to get a bite in on the killer and that's why he removed his head--because of DNA. That might be likely too. VERY likely it would seem, if the killer is so aware of procedural LE things such as jurisdictional evidence and the exact line in the lake that separates two counties. Such a thing would NEVER occur to me, and probably not to most people who weren't somehow, some way involved in government or LE. The impression I got from Sills when he said that was that he thinks the perp put the body in that area on purpose, to mess up their investigation. That smells like someone with intimate knowledge of police matters....

<BBM for Focus>

Good post & food for thought Bethanthony....
RE: BBM:

The placing of victims or items that may tie them to an abduction across police jurisdiction lines by the perps is referred too as jurisdiction linkage blindness(lack of communication between LEAs). The phrase was coined by criminology professor Dr Steve Egger back in the 1970s.

Couple of things that I would like to mention is;

* there are many tools and objects that are of the same diameter as a crow bar, someone mentioned iron pipe, also a police baton is approximately the same diameter as a crow bar.

* the Public Grocery Store visit keeps haunting me for some unexplained reason..


<read down around the middle of the article - very interesting about crime locations, etc>
* The perp brings something to the crime scene, leaves something there, and takes something away.. Locard's Exchange Principle

http://prtl.uhcl.edu/portal/page/pct/USN/TheSignal/Life?articleId=402

__________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locard's_exchange_principle
Paul L. Kirk[1] expressed the principle as follows:

"Wherever he steps, whatever he touches, whatever he leaves, even unconsciously, will serve as a silent witness against him. Not only his fingerprints or his footprints, but his hair, the fibers from his clothes, the glass he breaks, the tool mark he leaves, the paint he scratches, the blood or semen he deposits or collects. All of these and more, bear mute witness against him. This is evidence that does not forget. It is not confused by the excitement of the moment. It is not absent because human witnesses are. It is factual evidence. Physical evidence cannot be wrong, it cannot perjure itself, it cannot be wholly absent. Only human failure to find it, study and understand it, can diminish its value."
____________________________

"There is no such thing as a perfect crime, only imperfect investigations, imo"...
 
Thanks to all of you that have been posting, including the links. It has been very easy to get up to speed.

There is something deeply personal about this crime. Rage. The decapitation of RD IMO seems like deep seated rage and purposeful. The "care" and "placement" of SD IMO seems more like her murder was incidental as there could be no witnesses, and the killer had no "relative" ill will towards her.

What I find odd is that it seems that whoever killed them wanted the house itself to remain untouched and therefore without stigma. From what I have read here, nothing was disturbed or taken from the house. ITA with those that have said the murderer(s) were known to this couple and chances are the couple had no reason to fear whoever did this.

I would imagine the FBI is looking closely into who would benefit from their deaths... JMV
 
exactly, why take the head? There is absolutely no logical motive to take the head. And if the perpetrator wants heads for some sick reason, why not take both victims heads. There really is no logical reason for any of this bizarre case. It is all a red herring.

there is a reason
 
Sorry, I missed that. Did the ME say it was consistent
with being hit by a crowbar? Please advise.

Yes, he did say that but imo a golf club could be a likely weapon that could cause similar damage. It was just a thought on my part.
 
Interesting read about the case.

Ga. killings 'a crime that can be solved,' former FBI profiler says

http://www.arcamax.com/currentnews/newsheadlines/s-1524806?fs

Thank you for posting this article. It is very interesting to read what the FBI profiler had to say. I, too, am puzzled why GBI is not more involved. Sometimes the person in charge needs to set aside their ego for the better good.

Question: Why aren't their children there? And why aren't they insisting GBI be involved? They have a say in this investigation don't they? TIA
 
NO, i think someoen would have found her before now if she was placed on a tree limb,

i think she was meant to be tangled in the underwater roots and limbs adn the many fish there woudl take care of it and the head is in there I bet

Also think that because it was stated in an article last, that the head may not be able to be found becuase of the many tree roots and bramble under there

I'm not an avid fisherman but have been around, i think the area would be more for fisherman to leave their lines out all night on a jug, whats that called and i thnk for sure i wouldnt' be draggig a line thru that mess, BUT ONLY SURFACE FISHING, fisherman know they'll get tangled in that if it's as bad as LE said about not being able to find the head due to all the tree roots

that being said, no one would have snagged her if she were under there likely

If they wanted them found they'd have left them both at the house or hung them from a tree there to make a statement

i think the moving of her was to waylay the investigation

but the beheading is what the LE is looking at mostly I think

of course they have to follow thru with everything

JMO, i've slept on it and have a whole new view, errr, rather my beginning views and it's getting clearer to me

but I may be WRONG but that's how i feel !!


Morning Everyone!:seeya:

I have been thinking about what we have learned about Shirley's body being 'placed' where it was found.

Being a Georgia girl myself, I at first thought this was just the way the man who found her phrased it, and it shouldn't be taken literally. We do have our own way of talking that's fur shur!:floorlaugh:

But now for LE to know that she was placed there I am beginning to think the fisherman that found her told it just like it was and she was found 'hanging in the trees.'

If LE now knows she was placed there instead of drifting there then there has to be evidence of 'placement.' which can only mean they discovered that she was tied to the trees by some kind of cord or rope to keep her in place. Something they knew wouldn't break.

It just seems whoever this is .......is playing a cat and mouse game. With whom? Maybe LE. Leaving evidence behind but knowing they cant catch him even if they do find what he has left for them to find?

IMO
 
Is GBI or the FBI looking at transfer DNA/DNA on the body/clothing of RD? I would imagine LE has a good idea about the method used to behead RD.
 
You dont' need to go back and read all the threads to speculate about gators in GA, he's said he's been in the 3 major ones all his life


I live in rural ga. I work in agriculture. I hunt and fish and have all my life. I have been in oconee, Sinclair, Blackshear, hartwell, and Clark's hill all my life. I have lived above the Fall and below it......gators do not abound above it....they do below it.......


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Good morning OMB!

That is true it could be.

But the ME has seen her skull injuries during the autopsy and he thinks it is consistent with being struck by a crowbar. So she must have had several skull fractures. Also many times ME can see a pattern on the skin of the weapon used. The injuries have to show it was done by a long cylindrical object such as a crowbar or a long piece of pipe with the diameter of a crowbar.

That is why LE is trying to find a crowbar. This happens often in bludgeoning cases. The ME after the autopsy is done will give his opinion to the police as to what weapon he thinks was used so they can know what to search for.

IMO


IMO

I am not totally tied to the crowbar being the weapon. The only thing I have seen to suggest crowbar may be the weapon is the reporter outside the Dermond residence yesterday stating that LE have returned to look for "a crowbar or something" that was used as the weapon.

To me, that does not translate to ME has seen the injuries and told police with certainty that a crowbar and nothing but a crowbar is the weapon. I read that more as the ME has stated that the injuries are consistent with something like a crowbar or similar implement was the likely weapon. As you say, crowbar OR SOMETHING similar to a crowbar. We are assuming the ME has instructed the weapon is something like a crowbar but frankly the ME has said nothing publicly about the case so we cannot say the ME has told LE to like for a specific item. We simply don't know. All we can do is surmise based on our knowledge following previous cases.

I am still thinking that a golf club could just as easily have been the weapon based on the limited info we have at the moment.

Thanks for letting me bounce that off yours OBE, now I am off to catch up on what I missed since last night.
 
Sorry, I missed that. Did the ME say it was consistent
with being hit by a crowbar? Please advise.

Yes, he did say that but imo a golf club could be a likely weapon that could cause similar damage. It was just a thought on my part.

If the ME has stated that a crowbar is the weapon could someone link it please. Sorry but I must have missed it while I selpt last night. I believe LE are looking for something along the lines (similar) to a crowbar and have surmised they do so based on ME findings but I have not seen where it has been confirmed that ME says - crowbar. Thanks for any help in getting caught up.
 
I have several crowbars, but what I'm wondering, what purpose would the Desmond's have for a crowbar? Or do they think the perp(s) could have brought one there? If so, imo, it would have been disposed of when the body was, or taken back to the perp(s) home, and not left at the Desmond's. I don't see this couple tearing down walls, or doing their own construction/deconstruction type things.

Not having any information on the autopsy, I can only state that a crowbar is much thicker, and I don't think any of ours are round. IIRC, they all are long, and have edges like hexagon shape or something. They are much thicker and stronger than golf clubs.

All my own opinion as always. I'll have to go look at the crowbars when I go outside later.
 
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