GA - Suspicion over heat death of Cooper, 22 mo., Cobb County, June 2014, #3

[Linda7NJ]

Where did you read that? Link please..



But again, Some parents will do anything to try and revive the child.

Scarlett I love ya and all.... But these links have been repeatedly posted.
It's not fair to keep asking others to post them, again, just for you.


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[Linda7NJ]

He should know better IMO.



Stay professional.

He's human.


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[snowblossom2]

I am done with that reporter. I just don't trust him for real and valid info. But I do believe there is more to this if they charged him so quickly. I don't know what it is they know but I don't think it was because of the computer. They would not have had that so quick. HE is an IT guy. He knows how to make it hard to find stuff and to cover his tracks. AND it seems less likely that he would search anything incriminating on his own computers or ones he had access too.

I think that it is hard to know and when rumor is stuck in the mix, It makes it harder to really see the case and know what is really going on.

Just bc he's an IT guy doesn't mean he knows how to cover his tracks, so to speak. He doesn't have a long history, either, in an IT role if you look at his employment history. It's a big assumption IMO that you are ascribing all of these skills to someone who is an IT guy when IT is a very broad field, we don't know his training etc etc

 

[Salem]

Where?

I don't have time to find the link for you right now. If you have time, the link is in the media thread. One of the first articles published has a witness saying the child was in full rigor and his body still had the shape of the car seat when the child was removed from the car. Witness said it was a sight he would never forget

Salem

 

[popsicle]

So they should have been close enough to smell something if they helped get Cooper out of the car and do CPR no?

I think the one civilian witness was but I also do not think he was interviewed by the press...thankfully.

 

[gitana1]

I am done with that reporter. I just don't trust him for real and valid info. But I do believe there is more to this if they charged him so quickly. I don't know what it is they know but I don't think it was because of the computer. They would not have had that so quick. HE is an IT guy. He knows how to make it hard to find stuff and to cover his tracks. AND it seems less likely that he would search anything incriminating on his own computers or ones he had access too.

I think that it is hard to know and when rumor is stuck in the mix, It makes it harder to really see the case and know what is really going on.

Can you say why you distrust this reporter so much? Others have said he's very well respected, wins awards, etc.

As to why an IT guy would put incriminating stuff on his computer, criminals are often simply stupid.

Per the TOS, we are allowed to treat media reports as fact, not rumor. However, I do see why that People.com quote from LE would cause you pause. It certainly does indicate, the way it is worded, that LE is discounting the internet search rumor.

trying very hard to follow your breadcrumbs to comment on the FB link you provide about who put Cooper in the car seat at 11:05. But there are over 1200 comments under that link, lol. Do you happen to recall the initials of that poster? TIA if not I will have more work cut out for me this evening but willing to try.

Mom put the kid in the car, it states.

Im sorry. I don't believe it. There is nothing at all that substantiates that.
Don't get me wrong. I think it looks bad for this guy but I am not willing to tie things to his neck that are not true to make is sound better. I just don't believe it.

And again. reported by whom and where is the link?

I'm still struggling with the thought that the car would have smelled that bad.

As someone mentioned upthread, there have been many cases where a parent forgets to drop the child off at daycare, and at the end of the day returns to daycare to pick them up. And the poor deceased baby has been in their car all the while.

I don't think usually LE jumps up and says that their car reeked so bad they must have known.

I am very interested in further information directly from LE, and the ME about what the car must have smelled like. Even when kids are found dead in a trunk of a car after 18 hours or so, cadaver or search dogs don't seem to always find their scent. Googling, decay becomes very noticeable at 2.5 days and reaches peak at about 4-5 days. And that's for adults. Little babies smell sweeter than adults and this one was very small.

Scarlett, can you say why you don;t believe the death smell report?

Is it because of the info that JeannaT found? Because I agree. What I've found online indicates it takes days before that decomp smell is readily apparent. That's why when I heard that report I instantly thought the kid died days before.

I mean Caylee was in a trunk in hot Florida for days before there were comments indicating the vehicle smelled.

I would think a human left in a boiling car for hours may smell like cooked meat, , but not decomp. Not yet.

And bodily fluids do not smell, unless they are poop and pee, until they've decomped for days.

Does the heat make a difference? I don;t know. I have often had food left over in my car. Often. It usually seems to take 24 hours or more.

I found these posts in the Caylee archive. Maybe someone can make sense of them for me:

BrandyMarie
07-28-2008, 11:56 PM

How long does it take a body to really start to smell?

I'm wondering if her parents smelled it when they picked the car up and LE smelled it when they searched...how long was the body in and out of the car?
Seriously, if it was in the trunk for a few hours(driving to an alternate location)...could it smell that bad and can the smell linger for weeks? Seriously, why would the smell be there 3 weeks to a month after the fact?

truecrime
07-29-2008, 01:05 AM

I'm wondering if her parents smelled it when they picked the car up and LE smelled it when they searched...how long was the body in and out of the car?
Seriously, if it was in the trunk for a few hours(driving to an alternate location)...could it smell that bad and can the smell linger for weeks? Seriously, why would the smell be there 3 weeks to a month after the fact?Pallor mortis (Latin (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Latin): paleness of death) is a postmortem (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Postmortem) paleness which happens in those with light skin almost instantly (in the 15–120 minutes after the death) because of a lack of capillary (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Capillary) circulation throughout the body (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Body). The blood sinks down into the lower parts of the body creating the Livor mortis (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Livor_mortis).
Paleness develops so rapidly after death that it has little to no use in determining the time of death, aside from saying that it either happened less than 30 minutes ago or more, which could help if the body was found very quickly after death.
But it all depends on the conditions where the dead thing is.
if it is hot it will decompose faster and will start to smell. If it is cold it takes longer.
So if it's 80 degrees a dead body will start to smell alot sooner than one that is where the temperature is cold outside
with light skin almost instantly (in the 15–120 minutes after the death) because of a lack of capillary (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Capillary) circulation throughout the body (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Body). The blood sinks down into the lower parts of the body creating the Livor mortis (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Livor_mortis).
Livor mortis or postmortem lividity or hypostasis (Latin (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Latin): livor—bluish color, mortis—of death), one of the signs of death (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Death), is a settling of the blood (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Blood) in the lower (dependent) portion of the body, causing a purplish red discoloration of the skin:
Coroners (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Coroner) can use the presence or absence of livor mortis as a means of determining an approximate time of death. The presence of livor mortis is an indication not to start CPR (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Cardiopulmonary_resuscitation), or to stop it if it is in progress. It can also be used by forensic investigators to determine whether or not a body has been moved (for instance, if the body is found lying face down but the pooling is present on its back, investigators can determine that the body was originally positioned face up).
Livor mortis starts 20 minutes to 3 hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in 4 to 5 hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6-12 hours.
Decomposition (or spoilage) refers to the reduction of the body of a formerly living organism (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Organism) into simpler forms of matter. The body of a living organism begins to decompose (as part of a succession) shortly after death (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Death). Such decomposition can be categorized by two stages: In the first stage, it is limited to the production of vapors. In the second stage, liquid materials form and the flesh or plant matter begins to decompose.
Environmental influences affect decomposition. A body that is exposed to air (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Air) will decompose more quickly and exhibit more insect (http://www.websleuths.com/wiki/Insect) activity. A buried body will decompose eight times slower than a body exposed to air. This is due in part to limited insect activity and possibly lower temperatures. Likewise a body submerged in water decomposes at half the rate of an exposed body. The rate of decomposition depends on the temperature of the water. Cold water slows decomposition and warm water causes faster decomposition. The body is also shielded from insect activity as long as it is submerged. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-68134.html

 

[JeannaT]

Seriously?

Yes, seriously. Do a google search yourself, "when do human dead bodies start to smell".

You won't find a reliable link written by a coroner or ER physicians that says a matter of hours.

That's why when children die, you can't find them. Even if they're within 50 yards and it's baking summer. Because they don't smell for a long time.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2014/06/26/justin-ross-harris-cooper-search-animal-hot-car-die

This media source describes the CPR and the scene at the pizza place, per one bystander.

Nothing about smell or rigor.. Thanks. And in fact if he was in rigor, Then no one would have helped him with cpr.

"“The child looked sweaty and tired. Two guys started to give the boy CPR. I was on the curb and the father and another individual brought the boy out. The father kept circling around us yelling and screaming, “What did I do? Oh my God, my child is dead!” Smith added."


BBM. Not rigor.

 

[tlcya]

When I posted that presser link I didn't state anything about statements made in it. I posted it because someone here wanted to see it for the mannerisms and facial expressions etc. fyi

no no no, you did not, absolutely.

I was thrilled when you found it as were others because it had been said by members who watched it that some comment was made about first responders smelling a distinct overwhelming odor upon arrive emitting from the vehicle.

I am so sorry if my post seemed to assert anything other than total appreciation for finding that link. The poster could not provide one as I do not think video of the presser had been uploaded online yet.

 

[Judicious1]

Where did you read that? Link please..

But again, Some parents will do anything to try and revive the child.

I would like to see it to because I never ever read that. Only that a conclusion was drawn ( I know I did) after Dale Hamilton witness on scene said Cooper was on the concrete laying in the same position he was sitting in the carseat. I assumed that meant he was rigid and rigor started to set in

 

[tlcya]

Nothing about smell or rigor.. Thanks. And in fact if he was in rigor, Then no one would have helped him with cpr.

"“The child looked sweaty and tired. Two guys started to give the boy CPR. I was on the curb and the father and another individual brought the boy out. The father kept circling around us yelling and screaming, “What did I do? Oh my God, my child is dead!” Smith added."


BBM. Not rigor.

I have read direct quotes and or seen video interviews of approx four witnesses. Two females two males.

One of the males is quoted about the child being stiff and still maintaining a seated pose when removed form the vehicle.l

Let me see if I can find it.

 

[snowblossom2]

Yes, seriously. Do a google search yourself, "when do human dead bodies start to smell".

You won't find a reliable link written by a coroner or ER physicians that says a matter of hours.

That's why when children die, you can't find them. Even if they're within 50 yards and it's baking summer. Because they don't smell for a long time.

But he was trapped in a car, not in a field or anywhere where there was air circulating

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I would like to see it to because I never ever read that. Only that a conclusion was drawn ( I know I did) after Dale Hamilton witness on scene said Cooper was on the concrete laying in the same position he was sitting in the carseat. I assumed that meant he was rigid and rigor started to set in

And yet the other account from the witness at the pizza place said the child looked tired and sweaty and tired. There is no way that child was in rigor if that is the case.
I am calling the rigor comment rumor too.

When the CA trial happened I remember that there was a big thing if she had died in the pool why no one did CPR. EMS guy said he had seen people trying to revive obviously dead children. That parents will try till they pass out if let alone.

IT is a normal reaction to want to help save your child.

 

[Judicious1]

I saw it on CNN and I know it was also written because I commented here that I don't like when important witnesses are interviewed in the media.
Check CNN



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The witness never used the words rigormortis or even stiff.
It was derived from his comment of the position the child was in on the ground being that of a shape of the carseat.

 

[lightlady]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-animal-die-hot-car-toddler-son-died-way.html

And another that does talk about the rigor, however.

 

[LaborDayRN]

I don't have time to find the link for you right now. If you have time, the link is in the media thread. One of the first articles published has a witness saying the child was in full rigor and his body still had the shape of the car seat when the child was removed from the car. Witness said it was a sight he would never forget

Salem

Thanks Salem. I didn't even know where to begin to find it for her. I should have thought about the media thread.

 

[JeannaT]

Can you say why you distrust this reporter so much? Others have said he's very well respected, wins awards, etc.

As to why an IT guy would put incriminating stuff on his computer, criminals are often simply stupid.

Per the TOS, we are allowed to treat media reports as fact, not rumor. However, I do see why that People.com quote from LE would cause you pause. It certainly does indicate, the way it is worded, that LE is discounting the internet search rumor.



Mom put the kid in the car, it states.





Scarlett, can you say why you don;t believe the death smell report?

Is it because of the info that JeannaT found? Because I agree. What I've found online indicates it takes days before that decomp smell is readily apparent. That's why when I heard that report I instantly thought the kid died days before.

I mean Caylee was in a trunk in hot Florida for days before there were comments indicating the vehicle smelled.

I would think a human left in a boiling car for hours may smell like cooked meat, , but not decomp. Not yet.

And bodily fluids do not smell, unless they are poop and pee, until they've decomped for days.

Does the heat make a difference? I don;t know. I have often had food left over in my car. Often. It usually seems to take 24 hours or more.

I found these posts in the Caylee archive. Maybe someone can make sense of them for me:

And that, Gitana, may be exactly what made LE IMMEDIATELY suspicious. That may be the whole thing, in it's entirety, and what caused them to issue that cryptic statement about not being able to verify that the child was in the car that morning. Because at that time, due to not expecting a smell from a child so recently deceased, they believed firmly the baby had been dead for many days and Harris was lying about him dying that day.

I think that's exactly it. They arrive to a call about a child who died that morning accidentally, and are greeted by a smell typical of a child that had been dead for 5 days and immediately they went into the mode of knowing Harris to be lying, and then they worked to discover what had actually happened to the baby despite this father's indication the child died that day.

I think that's it. For some reason this baby smelled (or didn't, who knows what all the witness reports will say, and whoever did forensics on the car) like he'd been dead for a very long time instead of under 8 hours.

 

[Lorne Malvo]

Yes, seriously. Do a google search yourself, "when do human dead bodies start to smell".

You won't find a reliable link written by a coroner or ER physicians that says a matter of hours.

That's why when children die, you can't find them. Even if they're within 50 yards and it's baking summer. Because they don't smell for a long time.

You're saying the Cobb County police lied when they stated the strong odor inside auto was overwhelming? [modsnip]

MOOYA. :moo:

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

'But the baby didn't look like it had been choking, it looked like it had been sweating, like it had been in a swimming pool, his hair was all wet.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-car-toddler-son-died-way.html#ixzz35t7u19mI
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

First, The mailonline, Not my favorite source.

But again. The child being sweaty and no mention of odd position.

I just am not sure it is true.

 

[tlcya]

as to rigor reports

Eyewitness Edward Cockerham, 49, told MailOnline: 'I was interviewed by the police last night and I told them I thought the guy was acting, he was really over-reacting to the situation.


'I know he had lost his baby but he was acting up more than he should have been. It seemed like acting to me. When he pulled in and people started asking him what had happened, he said that the baby had just started choking.

SNIP

Artiyka also believes the baby had been dead for many hours before Harris pulled the child out of the car.
'The baby was a grey/blue color, not its natural color. I know he was in the car seat but when the dad placed him on the ground his legs stayed in the same sitting position, as if he was laying on the ground with his knees up in the air stiff. It wasn't natural.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-car-toddler-son-died-way.html#ixzz35t7We9Ne