GBC Trial General Discussion Thread #2

[toe]

So what's your take on this Doc? You've mentioned this a few times. It is a long way from the house to hear those " blood curdling screams", so given that there was a bit of political argy bargy going on, or about to be, do you think maybe he was trying to raise his profile and his community awareness in saying this? Personally I question how he said that he had a friend staying with him and couldn't wake him. Just too odd... Welcome your thoughts on this.

I feel sure I read somewhere GBC was being groomed for the QLD Liberal Party.

 

[sosocurious]

Was there an opportunity for GBC and TM to meet (after popping girls to bed and prior to or as Allison arrived home from hairdresser) on the 19th?

Could the philanderers have argued and TM scratched GBC's right cheek not Allison?

According to TMH statement she was on the phone to GBC between about 5.00pm and 5.30pm

In her 1st statement she has given detail to place him in the car driving to the shops buying sausages and then arriving at his parents home and hearing someone tell him the girls were in the pool.

5.52pm GBC logged onto net from Pullenvale.
6.12pm GBC logged on to net from Kenmore
6.21pm GBC loggedonto net from Brookfield
6.21 pm Allison phoned home land line from Chapel Hill
6.27 Allison called GBC's mobile from Chapel Hill
6.54 call diverted to GBC message bank
6.56 GBC connected to net from Mt Cootha
7.13 NBC phoned OW from Kenmore
GBC sent some text at 7.44 - 7.46
7.50 Allison text Kerri Ann Walker
8.28 pm Allison's phone rang OW
Olivia said she had been out to dinner and was arriving home about this time.
8.45pm - GBC takes phone of the charger. Home or car ??

 

[Mountain Misst]

OK, now I get it. 3 seconds call to Kate R wouldn't have been long enough to establish ABC was to meet her at the office at 8am would it? GBC told the police he didn't know that, Allison hadn't told him when they discussed it the night before, she'd just said she was leaving home at 7am. They asked what time he called Kate, he said "Ten past ni-, seven"

No record that GBC called Kate after that. Did Kate call GBC to enquire where ABC was?

From phone records:

GBC's last phone calls from his mobile on the night of the 19th were to Kate Rankin - 5:10pm - 05sec and 5:11pm - 06sec ...
She was however on the list of recipients of 'group texts' sent by GBC during the evening, however there was no direct SMS sent to her individually from his mobile in the evening of the 19th or the morning of the 20th.
The 7:09am call in the morning from GBC to KR was only .03sec

I would suggest that any voice call involving conversation beyond a grunt, would have likely originated from KR.

When I re-read the QPS interview transcript with GBC - GBC received a call from KR during that interview (page 21-22) at about 8:30am. GBC says that KR is not at the seminar, so she must have cancelled when she knew that Allison was missing.

 

[Thinking]

According to TMH statement she was on the phone to GBC between about 5.00pm and 5.30pm

In her 1st statement she has given detail to place him in the car driving to the shops buying sausages and then arriving at his parents home and hearing someone tell him the girls were in the pool.

5.52pm GBC logged onto net from Pullenvale.
6.12pm GBC logged on to net from Kenmore
6.21pm GBC loggedonto net from Brookfield
6.21 pm Allison phoned home land line from Chapel Hill
6.27 Allison called GBC's mobile from Chapel Hill
6.54 call diverted to GBC message bank
6.56 GBC connected to net from Mt Cootha
7.13 NBC phoned OW from Kenmore
GBC sent some text at 7.44 - 7.46
7.50 Allison text Kerri Ann Walker
8.28 pm Allison's phone rang OW
Olivia said she had been out to dinner and was arriving home about this time.
8.45pm - GBC takes phone of the charger. Home or car ??

Apologies if this has been discussed - but GBCs phone came off the charger at 8:45pm then went back on charger after 1am. Do you think IT forensics will be able to show where the phone travelled in that intervening time (8:45pm-1am)?

 

[KG1]

Excellent post JAM13. Thanks you for the refresher and summarization. It certainly shows the big holes in much of what his versions were on varous matters. Careful GBC - think you may fall down a hole and not be coming back - for a long time anyway. MOO

 

[BJsleuth]

Hand up! Sleeping in my walking gear is the only way I have been able to do morning walks when the weather gets colder. When you feel the cold badly, as the girls mentioned their mum did, it is impossible to get changed from pjs to trackies at that hour. Yes, even in Brisbane.

Thanks Mumma Bear. That makes sense. I used to throw bulky clothes over PJ's to walk the kids to the bus stop when they were little for the same reason.

 

[Mumma Bear]

2. The hair in the Captiva.

Nothing of significance Imo. The blood is a big deal, especially how vividly it shows up under luminol.
The hair on the other hand?
It was always going to be in the car.
My (Thankfully) Ex girlfriend had very long hair. She was only ever in my ute about 2 days of the week maximum, yet every time I rolled my window down to have a smoke while driving *Whap* Huge piece of hair would wrap around my face/eyes.
Ladies, you shed more hair than you'd like to admit!
As for it being stuck to the blood, Defence could argue blood was there first and the hair found its way there afterward.

Hi Breno - great info there about the ropes, thanks! The hair is significant though, due to being blonde. This dates it exactly to the evening of the 19th. If it had been red or brown (her two previous chemical treatments over the 8 weeks they'd had the car, as recorded with exact shade numbers by the hairdresser in her statement) only then it would be irrelevant. The forensics team would have popped it under the microscope to confirm the bleaching rather than colouring (definitive changes in the surface and thickness of the hair) and the nil regrowth would also show the hair could only be from the hours before her death, and hence the blood is also from that timeframe as well. That the court docs point out that it is blonde, stuck in the blood and they went to the trouble of DNA-matching it to Allison, was not just for the heck of it.

If it were red or brown, defence could easily dismiss it as you explain. Being blonde though, they can't.

With the plant material, wasn't her hair/head covered by her jumper? It's possible that plants from miles away could have been transported during that insanely wet period after Allison's death, but the jumper could have preserved the evidence from the time of her death. Reasonable doubt though.

Imagine GBC sweating it during all that torrential rain, with no body found for days and days. Where was his big payout? Swept down the river perhaps - but how could he go check with all the busybody police hassling him? Must have seemed like forever to him, and the noise of the rain deafening.

 

[DrWatson]

Hi everybody! long time no talk, though I have been lurking on and off since....
Great to see some familiar names still contributing from last time the discussion was this hot.

What follows will be a somewhat lengthy post, but there are a few discussions happening on here that I feel have run their course, and I'll give my (At times professional) opinion on them.

1. Gererd (Or is it Geraaard?) Using some elaborate rope system to lower a body.

I'm afraid there's no way this happened. Believe it or not, ropes will always put you at a disadvantage unless they are coupled with a mechanical aid.
Ropes lose their load capacity incrementally over distance, not to mention the weight of the rope adding to the pressure on the anchor point-which some have suggested may have been GBC himself.
Personally, I've seen 5tonne chains fail on a lift of 2tonne... because the inclusive chain angle was more than 120 degrees. Anyone with a DG ticket would know what I'm on about.
Load + Angle and/or length = fail
Anchoring yourself into such a situation would be Suicide....And only one 'Suicide' was meant to happen that night.

2. The hair in the Captiva.

Nothing of significance Imo. The blood is a big deal, especially how vividly it shows up under luminol.
The hair on the other hand?
It was always going to be in the car.
My (Thankfully) Ex girlfriend had very long hair. She was only ever in my ute about 2 days of the week maximum, yet every time I rolled my window down to have a smoke while driving *Whap* Huge piece of hair would wrap around my face/eyes.
Ladies, you shed more hair than you'd like to admit!
As for it being stuck to the blood, Defence could argue blood was there first and the hair found its way there afterward.

3. The leaf matter....

I find it hard to believe that the leaf matter collected from Allissons Hair could have only come from the carport.
You only have to take a wander along any watercourse to see the variation in vegetation etc.
Not to discount the Botanist, but how far did he travel in his observations? We are talking about a tidal creek which had suffered significant rain activity over a 10 day period.......If I were on the jury, this is the kind of evidence I'd throw over my shoulder, sorry to say.

4. Injuries

Now here is something that really got me thinking.......
Allissons injuries. The Chipped tooth, Decomposition in the jaw
Smacks of an uppercut punch. Would explain the bleeding (Bit tongue)
Chipped tooth from both jaws slamming together?

Now as far as I'm concerned;
Did he do it? of course.
Can I prove it? nope
Does the prosecution have more up their sleeve?
You betcha!
Stay safe everyone, been great to see some familiar names as always
-Breno

A well thought-out post. Just a couple of comments on those points, though:

Agree with you completely about the use of ropes etc. Not even a vague possibility - not to mention how or where he got the ropes or disposed of them. Or how he disengaged the rope from the body once it was down below.

Now the hair in the Captiva - I would disagree with you on that - I think that is highly significant. Yes ladies (and long-haired gents) can shed hair, and she obviously did. But if the hair WAS stuck in the blood, then that implies strongly that the blood was still at least semi-fluid when the hair got there. In other words - fresh. So the hair arrived after the blood. And if your point is that it could have been shed earlier, and just blown around the back of the car, that is a reasonable point. But once again, the condition of the hair (colouring etc) could indicate that it could only have happened SINCE the hair appointment the evening before. But we haven't heard that yet.....

The leaves and the botanist's evidence I think ARE relevant. Kholo creek is tidal, yes - but the vegetation down anywhere near water level is sparse at best - it is very muddy. And although I am no botanist, I think that the leaves from plants that were growing in the back garden of the BC house up against the patio would be a particular combination that would be unlikely to be replicated elsewhere, especially in the wild at Kholo. If it were just 2 or even 3 plant types, maybe. But SIX (on both the body AND next to that back patio)? I think that is almost a signature combination.

Your comment about the chipped tooth is possibly valid, but there was NO evidence of decomposition of the jaw/mandible. It was intact on both the CT scan ond on Dr Forrest's odontology evidence too, where he specifically stated "Examination of the teeth and jaws of the deceased demonstrates no obvious signs of trauma apart from a small mesio-incisial chip on tooth 33, which may or may not be of recent origin".
Mesio-incisal is on the SIDE of the tooth, not the tip or biting edge. Also, tooth 33 (using the FDI numbering system) is the left LOWER canine next to the incisor. There is no other "tooth 33" given that we only have 32 teeth. So the chip is off the side of the canine that faces the incisor next to it. Which doesn't appear to me, at least (I'm not a dentist), to be due to a blow from below, or even from the front.

So, in summary, and with respect to your well considered post, I'd agree that no ropes were used, but I think the evidence about the hair and the leaves ARE relevant, and the small chip on the SIDE of one lower jaw tooth does not suggest an uppercut punch to me.

Ain't it great that we can have civilized discussions and disagreements without being offended - I hope? :blushing:

 

[AAAA]

Morning AAAA

I think I'd better keep any thoughts and theories to myself on this one. I just get the feeling that there is a back story to it, but I don't really know what it is. And any theories would be just that - theories - so better kept in my head!:banghead:

Thanks DW

 

[sosocurious]

Apologies if this has been discussed - but GBCs phone came off the charger at 8:45pm then went back on charger after 1am. Do you think IT forensics will be able to show where the phone travelled in that intervening time (8:45pm-1am)?

I have no idea about phones, pings and towers but IMO the phones will be very significant in the jig saw.

NBC and OW IMO have told their stories to fit in with the calls made.

We heard nothing about the 18th April 2012 until GBC phone was seized and it was discovered that he had searched taking the fifth at 10.08pm that evening.

Just as little was heard from Dr Flegg until I assume it was discovered his phone had been lent to his friend BUT only through the Chamber of Commerce.

 

[Amee]

OK, now I get it. 3 seconds call to Kate R wouldn't have been long enough to establish ABC was to meet her at the office at 8am would it? GBC told the police he didn't know that, Allison hadn't told him when they discussed it the night before, she'd just said she was leaving home at 7am. They asked what time he called Kate, he said "Ten past ni-, seven"

No record that GBC called Kate after that. Did Kate call GBC to enquire where ABC was?

Kate rang GBC while he was being interviewed the police also spoke to Kate during that call.

GBC interview at Brookfield 8:18am

 

[sosocurious]

Kate rang GBC while he was being interviewed the police also spoke to Kate during that call.

GBC interview at Brookfield 8:18am

When Kate found out Allison was missing she did not attend the conference, she changed her plans. Unlike GBC and NBC - no they discussed packing the car with a vac and hose so as those pressing chores could be attended.

 

[Champagne4lulu]

When are we going to hear analysis of the vacuum and hose?

 

[LadyBird1]

Recordings at this link...

LISTEN to Gerard Baden-Clay explain his scratches to police

LISTEN to police interview day Allison went missing

LISTEN to Badebn Clay admitting to his affair


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AU-Allison Baden-Clay,43,Brisbane QLD, 19April2012 MEDIA/TIMELINE LINKS,NO DISCUSSION

I Appreciate MW for providing these links.
First thoughts were of the C21 advertising spiel from way back before Allison's death. He was being interviewed by a C21 person wearing a mustard coloured jacket.
If this matter were not so serious, that C21 spiel would be laughable.
Lots of stuff re how great we are and how we do it better
Not exactly sure why he can it better etc, but it is certain, though full of bull dust, that he is proficient at "winging it" it's like he believes his own publicity. And has done so for some time. Also it appears that he has not been corrected about making a fool of himself.
G is always right. Must be always right because no one has taken him to task about being any different.
I wish that the jury could hear that C21 interview.
Perhaps they might be able to decipher the difference between a confident real estate salesman who is trying to sell something,
And a distressed and anxious husband who is keen to help police find his missing wife.
Because I can't tell the difference.

 

[louisepiglet]

Was there an opportunity for GBC and TM to meet (after popping girls to bed and prior to or as Allison arrived home from hairdresser) on the 19th?

Could the philanderers have argued and TM scratched GBC's right cheek not Allison?

Why not say that then. Why lie?

 

[BJsleuth]

People probably do that, yes, and I guess Allison may have done this - but I reckon she was in the oversized ones for comfort that night after a big day, not with any intention of walking in them at any point. I would never have done this when I was younger, but after having three kids myself, I love the oversized stuff for chilling at home at the end of the day - not very glam I know

Also, we don't know that the oversized stuff was her usual walking gear anyway, do we. We only have GBCs word for that. I reckon it was probably her chilling at home gear, and shoes were likely put on her later.

Thanks Thinking! I can relate to that.

 

[possumheart]

On the morning of April 20, Gerred was quick to establish with police attending his home that he and his wife were 'on the bones of their arse'. This is a metaphor for being broke, but insinuates the very rock bottom.
Being half way through the trial, we can now look forward to hearing more accurate analysis of G and A's business woes. G hadn't been able to pay staff, so he, Allison and Nigel's services to Century 21 were in the shadow of desperation. The meeting that Allison had on the 19th with the consultant at the office would have cost money that they didn't have - which leads me to think that Gerred wasn't being honest with his wife about those arse bones. I tend to think Nigel would have had to know as he had done the books, was owed money by G on top of covering a loan that G couldn't pay back to his brother. To send two members of his staff to the conference would have cost $350. (http://archives.informz.net/clients/reiq/archives/archive_518883.html)
Toni must have known how bad things were financially to throw a hissy fit about the cost of two staff attending.
So here is why I think G is guilty. It was unsustainable to have his wife work for him - it was negative $ for both his business and his household. Even if it placated Allison to work for him, it made no sense at all financially. G was treading water with no shore in sight. I think he had to chose between going bankrupt, burning down his business or killing his wife for the insurance. His other option was to erase himself, and his parents would have encouraged any alternative option to that. Didn't G tell Carmel the counsellor that he 'looked after his parents' in his self-defining snapshot?
Bottom line is, had Allison not disappeared between April 19 and 20 Gerard still had a lot oh manoeuvring and explaining ahead of him. ROCK BOTTOM.

 

[Mumma Bear]

Now the hair in the Captiva - I would disagree with you on that - I think that is highly significant. Yes ladies (and long-haired gents) can shed hair, and she obviously did. But if the hair WAS stuck in the blood, then that implies strongly that the blood was still at least semi-fluid when the hair got there. In other words - fresh. So the hair arrived after the blood. And if your point is that it could have been shed earlier, and just blown around the back of the car, that is a reasonable point. But once again, the condition of the hair (colouring etc) could indicate that it could only have happened SINCE the hair appointment the evening before. But we haven't heard that yet.....

What we have heard so far in the trial:
• hairdresser's information
• hair is blonde
• hair was stuck in blood
• hair DNA matched
• photo shown in court which clearly shows hair is held down by the blood, and has a bright blonde colour - very much the glowy colour you get after bleaching - only settles down after a few days (or at least mine does this after streaks)

What we haven't heard so far in the trial:
• forensic expert to testify that there is no regrowth
• forensic expert to confirm bleaching
• close up photos/microscope photos to underline the point
• prosecution to connect the dots between this, the timeline and the hairdresser's records/statement/testimony during their summing up.

 

[sosocurious]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...rder-of-his-wife-allison/story-fnihsrf2-12269

Ms Neilsen said she had a 4 hour meeting with Allison to discuss business development and growth strategies.
Allison was extremely positive.
Ms Neilsen said she met GBC at the end of the meeting. He was on the phone when we entered the room.
The meeting ended at 1.30pm.

The hairdresser Monique Waymouth said in her statement:
Allison said she was sick in a roundabout way and she guessed it wasn't going to go away.
I wonder if Allison was referring to finances/relationship and not to her flu.

Did GBC express discontent when Ms Neilsen left.

Because he phoned
14.36pm NBC from Taringa - NBC returned this call from Kenmore
14.43pm Toni McH from Kenmore for 5mins
14.58pm Rob Cheeseman from Pullenvale.

These three people have all had phones and/or computers seized by the police.

 

[sosocurious]

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...ive-coverage-day-3-week-1-20140612-39yck.html

NBC said he remembers GBC dropping sausages off early in the afternoon.
He returned to the BC home about 5pm.
Had a "fairly short" dinner.
GBC left "fairly early for home about 6.30pm.

But GBC phone logged on at 17.52pm at Pullenvale. Go figure!!