JAM13
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GBC Trial General Discussion Thread #2
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I think that would have been what he would said, not point in lying and it would have been "blokey", "got a bit rough last night boys" if you know what I mean.
The razor story was very badly thought out.
kiwijayne
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So I went for a drive today. Was checking out Wedding venues but went to Gold Creek Rd and took a picture of where OW apparently was stopping and asking people if they had seen Allison. Note the road is narrow and the footpath you see on the left wasn't completed in 2012. Behind where I was is the rest home.
You can see why she would have been easy to spot by the people who travel that road in the morning.
JAM13
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Part 2 of my thoughts and feelings of the last 2 pages of the bail application.
There were 26 points of interest in my first part on page 7. I'll continue on from this.
27. One of those recovered emails from "Bruce Overland" to McHugh dated 03 April 2012, at 5:40pm stated, "I have given you a commitment and I intend to stick to it. I will be separated by 1 July" going on to state his love for McHugh. (It's interesting he said he would be separated by 1 July. Why did he specifically choose 1 July? Why not the 1 of June? Well that's because his two largest debts owing to two single people totalled in the amount of approximately $290,000 and they were BOTH due by June 30 2012. Once he collected life insurance money he would be able to pay off these debts by the June 30 and leave the next day with his future love.)
28. Police have obtained a witness statement from a woman who cared for the children on 26 April 2012. One of the children, Sarah, stated that "I am sorry I know I am not allowed to say anything until the debrief at night". (At this girls age, I wouldn't have had any idea about what a 'debrief' was. This is quite strange.)
29. Investigations have revealed that the defendant is in severe financial difficulties that he owed in excess of $1million to family, friends, associates and financial institutions. (It's extremely ironic that these debts were needing to be paid ASAP and he had NO possible way of paying them off, and his wife also went missing only a few months before these heavy debts were due. The ONLY way he was able to pay off any of these debts was to kill his wife and claim on all of her life insurance. Here is one of the motives)
30. Enquiries to date have failed to identify any legitimate means of salvaging his debt or finances prior to July 2012 in order to meet his commitment to McHugh without a large influx of funds from these insurance policies. (Once again, it's a little ironic that the ONLY way he could come up with $1million was to get the $1million from his wife's life insurance policy. She had to die for this to happen.)
31. On the 12 April 2012 in the week leading up to the deceased's death, the defendant contacted one insurer, about one of the deceased's policies but was not provided with any information as he was not the policy holder. (So you're telling me, that 7 days before ABC goes missing, GBC has already enquired about his wife's $1million policy? IMO this is premeditated. It's a little too coincidental that she died 7 days later after he enquired about it, when he was in DESPERATE need of this amount of money.
32. A further query was made on the 17 April 2012, by the Baden Clay financial advisor on a life insurance policy of the deceased. (Two days before she "goes missing and commits suicide". This is premeditated.)
33. On April 30 2012, soon after the defendant was advised that a body had been located, the defendant's financial advisor made a further query with one of the deceased's life insurers. (On the same day he found out his wife's body had been located, he called up for the third time to enquire about the $1million.)
34. The defendant urgently sought a death certificate to be issued for the deceased. When a certificate was issued, on 21 May 2012, the defendant lodged claims in relation to each of these policies and had further asked that these claims be expedited. (You certainly needed the claims to be processed ASAP, didn't you? Because your largest debts of $290,000 were due within just 5 weeks on the 30th of June.)
35. Lawfully intercepted telephone calls on one of the defendant's phone lines supports that the defendant had used his parents to assist him in covertly contacting Toni McHugh on his behalf. (Why did you need to "lay low" GBC? And why did you need your mummy and daddy to call your mistress? If you are innocent and had nothing to hide, then you would have called her yourself on your own phone. Clearly you didn't want anyone to find out what you were talking about.)
These motives stick out in my mind-
1. He needed money very quickly in order to pay huge debts that were due in the coming weeks in the sum of $290,000.
2. He wanted to leave his wife for another woman.
3. He couldn't afford a divorce. He had to leave her in some other way whilst also gaining $$$ at the same time, instead of losing more money.
4. He couldn't even afford to live normally without overdrawing money from his credit cards ($45,000 credit card debt), so he needed money from elsewhere, and he clearly wasn't going to make it from his job at Century 21.
5. His wife was also a financial burden on him. She didn't have a separate job with her own income. His mistress T.M had her own means to fund her own life, unlike ABC who was relying on GBC and his business. Her income and livelihood was coming from their business that was making absolutely no money.
Once again, these are just MOO and I am no expert or super intelligent person. These are just my observations and thoughts that I believe
.
There were 26 points of interest in my first part on page 7. I'll continue on from this.
27. One of those recovered emails from "Bruce Overland" to McHugh dated 03 April 2012, at 5:40pm stated, "I have given you a commitment and I intend to stick to it. I will be separated by 1 July" going on to state his love for McHugh. (It's interesting he said he would be separated by 1 July. Why did he specifically choose 1 July? Why not the 1 of June? Well that's because his two largest debts owing to two single people totalled in the amount of approximately $290,000 and they were BOTH due by June 30 2012. Once he collected life insurance money he would be able to pay off these debts by the June 30 and leave the next day with his future love.)
28. Police have obtained a witness statement from a woman who cared for the children on 26 April 2012. One of the children, Sarah, stated that "I am sorry I know I am not allowed to say anything until the debrief at night". (At this girls age, I wouldn't have had any idea about what a 'debrief' was. This is quite strange.)
29. Investigations have revealed that the defendant is in severe financial difficulties that he owed in excess of $1million to family, friends, associates and financial institutions. (It's extremely ironic that these debts were needing to be paid ASAP and he had NO possible way of paying them off, and his wife also went missing only a few months before these heavy debts were due. The ONLY way he was able to pay off any of these debts was to kill his wife and claim on all of her life insurance. Here is one of the motives)
30. Enquiries to date have failed to identify any legitimate means of salvaging his debt or finances prior to July 2012 in order to meet his commitment to McHugh without a large influx of funds from these insurance policies. (Once again, it's a little ironic that the ONLY way he could come up with $1million was to get the $1million from his wife's life insurance policy. She had to die for this to happen.)
31. On the 12 April 2012 in the week leading up to the deceased's death, the defendant contacted one insurer, about one of the deceased's policies but was not provided with any information as he was not the policy holder. (So you're telling me, that 7 days before ABC goes missing, GBC has already enquired about his wife's $1million policy? IMO this is premeditated. It's a little too coincidental that she died 7 days later after he enquired about it, when he was in DESPERATE need of this amount of money.
32. A further query was made on the 17 April 2012, by the Baden Clay financial advisor on a life insurance policy of the deceased. (Two days before she "goes missing and commits suicide". This is premeditated.)
33. On April 30 2012, soon after the defendant was advised that a body had been located, the defendant's financial advisor made a further query with one of the deceased's life insurers. (On the same day he found out his wife's body had been located, he called up for the third time to enquire about the $1million.)
34. The defendant urgently sought a death certificate to be issued for the deceased. When a certificate was issued, on 21 May 2012, the defendant lodged claims in relation to each of these policies and had further asked that these claims be expedited. (You certainly needed the claims to be processed ASAP, didn't you? Because your largest debts of $290,000 were due within just 5 weeks on the 30th of June.)
35. Lawfully intercepted telephone calls on one of the defendant's phone lines supports that the defendant had used his parents to assist him in covertly contacting Toni McHugh on his behalf. (Why did you need to "lay low" GBC? And why did you need your mummy and daddy to call your mistress? If you are innocent and had nothing to hide, then you would have called her yourself on your own phone. Clearly you didn't want anyone to find out what you were talking about.)
These motives stick out in my mind-
1. He needed money very quickly in order to pay huge debts that were due in the coming weeks in the sum of $290,000.
2. He wanted to leave his wife for another woman.
3. He couldn't afford a divorce. He had to leave her in some other way whilst also gaining $$$ at the same time, instead of losing more money.
4. He couldn't even afford to live normally without overdrawing money from his credit cards ($45,000 credit card debt), so he needed money from elsewhere, and he clearly wasn't going to make it from his job at Century 21.
5. His wife was also a financial burden on him. She didn't have a separate job with her own income. His mistress T.M had her own means to fund her own life, unlike ABC who was relying on GBC and his business. Her income and livelihood was coming from their business that was making absolutely no money.
Once again, these are just MOO and I am no expert or super intelligent person. These are just my observations and thoughts that I believe
.
STELLA85
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What time did Toni find out that Allison would be at the conference? Was it the 5 pm call? I just cant see Toni going in the morning to the conference in the morning with out confirming if Allison would be there or not. I am sure it would influence her and demeanour if she knew she was going to be there. She seems the type who would need to know. IMO
I am also sure when the jury goes to Kholo Creek on Monday they will see how impossible it would be to walk there from Brookfield.
Sorry to be random i just needed to get this out of my system
I am also sure when the jury goes to Kholo Creek on Monday they will see how impossible it would be to walk there from Brookfield.
Sorry to be random i just needed to get this out of my system
Maigret
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Maigret
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kiwijayne
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It does and with the trees gone too.
BBM for emphasis..
well, Stell , that's my fave bit, really.. it's where one is truly obligated to suspend any logic at all. Let's enter into the Gerard/Toni sphere of thought for a few seconds..
She has completely done her block at him not 18 hours previously.. her words.. ' I lost it, I was in a rage , '... she pretends she is interested in Alisons actual welfare, to boot, by stating that Alison deserves to know she, Toni, will be there.. like, as if.. What Alison deserves from both Toni and Gerard has not exactly been a driving force up until that moment , but let's take it on it's face..
She leaves Gerard with the ultimatum. Alison isn't to go .. I presume that Toni means that merely by Gerard telling Alison Toni will be there will do the trick.. that Alison wont go, and she , Toni will be free to enjoy this conference, which from her statements all up, conferences seem to be the highlight of her life.. all that buzz and backslapping etc.. they meant a lot to her.
Does Gerard trudge home and lay this news out on Alison?? I very much doubt it. Doubt if he had told Alison by 8.3pm because Alison is calmly speaking with Olivia re a sleepover .. Alison hasn't rung Kate Rankin to cancel their arrangement to meet the next morning ( Gerard is out of the loop about this particular meeting ) .. and at no time does Alison ring Kate to cancel, not then, not later ,and not when she gets up early to 'go for a walk'. Of course, now we know she couldn't. She was dead.
So Toni , obviously, goes to the conference.. has Gerard rang her to tell her to suck it up , Alison just wouldn't co-operate and Toni will have to deal with it? or.. I tried, Toni, but I just couldn't get it across without dropping you in it.?? or.. .bad luck , GG , can you pretend to be ill and not go??
not a bit of it. And they have the means to contact each other by phone, but this call that isn't made is equivalent to the dog that didn't bark in the night..
Toni knows two people from Gerards office are going to it. ..the evening before she even had advice to Gerard about how he can afford to send two. She rings Gerard, she says, at the lunch break from the conference, this is about 1pm ( Gerard is mid burble with detectives ) to tell him Alison isn't at the conference.. no mention of why Kate Rankin isn't at it from Toni.. just Alison.. From Toni's position, realistically, both Kate Rankin and Alison are 'missing'...
If Alison isn't at the conference,.. where does Toni think she is? and why does she take the risk to ring Gerard to tell him?? She told him that Alison wasn't to go, so what's the mystery to Toni? Alison could be standing right next to him as far as Toni should know.. right at his elbow, if she isn't at the conference, surely this is such a peculiar risk to take at this stage of their entwinement... Alison could be right there in his office, leaning over his desk, or in the car with him showing property now that she has agreed to not go to the conference, why does Toni take this enormous risk in ringing Gerard at that time ?
unless she actually DID get a call from Gerard which neither are mentioning... a quick buzz before all this police stuff, or a call from someone else on the sly, who isn't being scrutinised as closely as Gerard is that morning.. unless she already knows that Alison is 'missing'..
Like you, I cant see Toni girding her girlish loins in happy anticipation of the great time she is going to have at the conference with this conundrum still unresolved, and serenely turning up at the seminar, flags flying.. Just cant see that at all.
as it stands, only Gerard knew, and knew comprehensively that she wouldn't be at the conference.. .. Toni has demanded that Alison doesn't go, and Gerard is also going to tell Alison that he is leaving her and selling the business as well..
I don't believe he had any such confrontation with Alison on any of these matters at all. He simply avoided it. It was one more thing he could avoid.
But Gerard has to act as if Alison is on schedule to be at the conference.. it's essential, other wise he has to explain why she chose not to go, and it doesn't solve the problem of where she is right now.. nor does it follow that she is in any sense missing, at that time of the day, if she doesn't have to go to the conference..
So complicated.. .. above all else, Gerard has to maintain this illusion of the attendance at the conference thing until his last breath.. everything falls apart at that point.
And, as per one of the children Allison opened the door to them when they arrived home, yet she hadn't left the hairdresser by that time.
they'll get you
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RSBM. My take is that maybe TM thought G had done what she'd asked but she probably expected it would cause a drama and end the marriage once and for all... so why hasn't G messaged her/called her because he should be free now. Do you know what I mean?
Makara
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BBM.
This has been my main bone of contention with TM. I mentioned the same thing ages ago so thanks Trooper for bringing it up again.
GBC and TM had been so careful not to phone each other because Allison was monitoring GBC's phone. Why then, on the day that Allison is reported missing, does TM throw caution to the wind and phone GBC, knowing full well that Allison would see that call when she eventually returned home? Allison could have been standing right next to GBC when TM called. Allison may have even answered the call. Why was TM so reckless? Was it out of concern for Allison? I don't think so.
TM knew that Allison wasn't coming home.
TM knew that Allison wasn't missing.
TM knew that Allison was dead.
D
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I imagine the situation as follows:
Toni has attended the conference until lunchtime, hasn't seen Allison but Kate. She knows, she urgently had demanded GBC to hold of Allison going to the conference. But she knows her lover and is doubting, whether he should have been able to prevent his wife of participation and how. Toni doesn't know precisely, whether Allison suddenly would be "standing on the mat" or not. Toni wants to learn, what is going on and calls GBC.
Toni is asking the correct questions: Allison isn't here - why? What happened? Had you an arguement?
IF Toni would know, then she wouldn't ask the last question.
Later on Toni finds out: lover's wife is missed, he hadn't done anything, he doesn't know what happened, he's loving her, both shall lay low.
"Lay low" he hadn't to tell on phone, if GBC had had a special murder plan together with Toni. - GBC told Toni to fell in love with someone other - that also doesn't fit, if Toni knew more.
I hope, 5 statements of Toni are enough to learn the truth finally.
IMO IMO IMO
Does something makes sense?
Toni has attended the conference until lunchtime, hasn't seen Allison but Kate. She knows, she urgently had demanded GBC to hold of Allison going to the conference. But she knows her lover and is doubting, whether he should have been able to prevent his wife of participation and how. Toni doesn't know precisely, whether Allison suddenly would be "standing on the mat" or not. Toni wants to learn, what is going on and calls GBC.
Toni is asking the correct questions: Allison isn't here - why? What happened? Had you an arguement?
IF Toni would know, then she wouldn't ask the last question.
Later on Toni finds out: lover's wife is missed, he hadn't done anything, he doesn't know what happened, he's loving her, both shall lay low.
"Lay low" he hadn't to tell on phone, if GBC had had a special murder plan together with Toni. - GBC told Toni to fell in love with someone other - that also doesn't fit, if Toni knew more.
I hope, 5 statements of Toni are enough to learn the truth finally.
IMO IMO IMO
Does something makes sense?
frustrated detective
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I wonder if it ever crossed Allison's mind, during those final weeks, that her life may be in danger?
D
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Part 2 of my thoughts and feelings of the last 2 pages of the bail application.
There were 26 points of interest in my first part on page 7. I'll continue on from this.
27. One of those recovered emails from "Bruce Overland" to McHugh dated 03 April 2012, at 5:40pm stated, "I have given you a commitment and I intend to stick to it. I will be separated by 1 July" going on to state his love for McHugh. (It's interesting he said he would be separated by 1 July. Why did he specifically choose 1 July? Why not the 1 of June? Well that's because his two largest debts owing to two single people totalled in the amount of approximately $290,000 and they were BOTH due by June 30 2012. Once he collected life insurance money he would be able to pay off these debts by the June 30 and leave the next day with his future love.)
28. Police have obtained a witness statement from a woman who cared for the children on 26 April 2012. One of the children, Sarah, stated that "I am sorry I know I am not allowed to say anything until the debrief at night". (At this girls age, I wouldn't have had any idea about what a 'debrief' was. This is quite strange.)
29. Investigations have revealed that the defendant is in severe financial difficulties that he owed in excess of $1million to family, friends, associates and financial institutions. (It's extremely ironic that these debts were needing to be paid ASAP and he had NO possible way of paying them off, and his wife also went missing only a few months before these heavy debts were due. The ONLY way he was able to pay off any of these debts was to kill his wife and claim on all of her life insurance. Here is one of the motives)
30. Enquiries to date have failed to identify any legitimate means of salvaging his debt or finances prior to July 2012 in order to meet his commitment to McHugh without a large influx of funds from these insurance policies. (Once again, it's a little ironic that the ONLY way he could come up with $1million was to get the $1million from his wife's life insurance policy. She had to die for this to happen.)
31. On the 12 April 2012 in the week leading up to the deceased's death, the defendant contacted one insurer, about one of the deceased's policies but was not provided with any information as he was not the policy holder. (So you're telling me, that 7 days before ABC goes missing, GBC has already enquired about his wife's $1million policy? IMO this is premeditated. It's a little too coincidental that she died 7 days later after he enquired about it, when he was in DESPERATE need of this amount of money.
32. A further query was made on the 17 April 2012, by the Baden Clay financial advisor on a life insurance policy of the deceased. (Two days before she "goes missing and commits suicide". This is premeditated.)
33. On April 30 2012, soon after the defendant was advised that a body had been located, the defendant's financial advisor made a further query with one of the deceased's life insurers. (On the same day he found out his wife's body had been located, he called up for the third time to enquire about the $1million.)
34. The defendant urgently sought a death certificate to be issued for the deceased. When a certificate was issued, on 21 May 2012, the defendant lodged claims in relation to each of these policies and had further asked that these claims be expedited. (You certainly needed the claims to be processed ASAP, didn't you? Because your largest debts of $290,000 were due within just 5 weeks on the 30th of June.)
35. Lawfully intercepted telephone calls on one of the defendant's phone lines supports that the defendant had used his parents to assist him in covertly contacting Toni McHugh on his behalf. (Why did you need to "lay low" GBC? And why did you need your mummy and daddy to call your mistress? If you are innocent and had nothing to hide, then you would have called her yourself on your own phone. Clearly you didn't want anyone to find out what you were talking about.)
These motives stick out in my mind-
1. He needed money very quickly in order to pay huge debts that were due in the coming weeks in the sum of $290,000.
2. He wanted to leave his wife for another woman.
3. He couldn't afford a divorce. He had to leave her in some other way whilst also gaining $$$ at the same time, instead of losing more money.
4. He couldn't even afford to live normally without overdrawing money from his credit cards ($45,000 credit card debt), so he needed money from elsewhere, and he clearly wasn't going to make it from his job at Century 21.
5. His wife was also a financial burden on him. She didn't have a separate job with her own income. His mistress T.M had her own means to fund her own life, unlike ABC who was relying on GBC and his business. Her income and livelihood was coming from their business that was making absolutely no money.
Once again, these are just MOO and I am no expert or super intelligent person. These are just my observations and thoughts that I believe
Thank you for part 1 and 2! That are the points!!
Berry
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No I do not feel this woman would ever let that enter her lexicon, let alone her thoughts.
Murder is not something Allison would ever let run wild in her imagination.
She was a forward planner working on herself to hold the marriage together and felt it was all her fault.
Her marriage and her children were her lifes' blood always, god bless her. Believe me, we are always put in that position when the husband is totally dismissive and uses us to lay the blame on, so we start to ask others 'how can we improve'?
Berry
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Originally Posted by JAM13 View Post
Part 2 of my thoughts and feelings of the last 2 pages of the bail application.
Snipped respectfully by me:
28. Police have obtained a witness statement from a woman who cared for the children on 26 April 2012. One of the children, Sarah, stated that "I am sorry I know I am not allowed to say anything until the debrief at night". (At this girls age, I wouldn't have had any idea about what a 'debrief' was. This is quite strange.)
I agree Jam that this childs' statement is horrifyingly astounding........BCs are very very scary to have imprinted the girls initially with this language.
Part 2 of my thoughts and feelings of the last 2 pages of the bail application.
Snipped respectfully by me:
28. Police have obtained a witness statement from a woman who cared for the children on 26 April 2012. One of the children, Sarah, stated that "I am sorry I know I am not allowed to say anything until the debrief at night". (At this girls age, I wouldn't have had any idea about what a 'debrief' was. This is quite strange.)
I agree Jam that this childs' statement is horrifyingly astounding........BCs are very very scary to have imprinted the girls initially with this language.
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