GBC Trial General Discussion Thread #2

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
In regards to the debrief of the children I have a few perspectives on this. I can definitely see the potential for a manipulative debrief to assist with a coverup, but I can also see the validity of other more positive reasons for a debrief. I can see the value in taking the time to clarify with the children the myriad of things happening in their life at a very tragic and confusing time. I can also see the value of giving children (who have probably been taught to respect adults) the power to not feel they have to answer every prying and possibly gossipy adults questions. I am talking about adults that have no legitimate reason to find out details (not police and people like grandparents). Some adults do see children as easy people to find out juicy information from. Some children are so respectful, innocent and honest that they don't have the confidence, skills, nor power to resist answering questions from prying adults. I can remember as a child my parents giving me the tools, confidence and permission to not answer the questions of prying adults. It was about things like confidential details about my foster siblings that were important for me to understand, and not at all necessary for prying adults. There were other situations that it was appropriate too. We have done the same thing with our own children from time to time, not to facilitate a coverup of anything but for appropriate reasons. I think there is a fine balance with children in teaching them to be open and transparent and able to confidently report to adults appropriate things (eg. Reporting abuse, assisting with a police investigation etc.) and giving them the tools to have the confidence to not answer the questions of adults who are really just prying for their own ends.

You know if this debrief was done by people who loved and supported Allison then I would have no problem accepting the situation and I would say great the girls are being cared for. BUT ....the fact it is done by people who have not given police statements when asked, who have appeared in court to speak with a hidden agenda of Allisons ineptitude and sickness. Who continue to deride her amazing accomplishments.

In fact Allison was constantly trying to fix her marriage, make herself more understanding and open - she wanted her family above all costs. She wanted her extended family happy and proud. This was her aim - unfortunately she was never ever good enough for them.
 
Part 2 of my thoughts and feelings of the last 2 pages of the bail application.

There were 26 points of interest in my first part on page 7. I'll continue on from this.

27. One of those recovered emails from "Bruce Overland" to McHugh dated 03 April 2012, at 5:40pm stated, "I have given you a commitment and I intend to stick to it. I will be separated by 1 July" going on to state his love for McHugh. (It's interesting he said he would be separated by 1 July. Why did he specifically choose 1 July? Why not the 1 of June? Well that's because his two largest debts owing to two single people totalled in the amount of approximately $290,000 and they were BOTH due by June 30 2012. Once he collected life insurance money he would be able to pay off these debts by the June 30 and leave the next day with his future love.)

28. Police have obtained a witness statement from a woman who cared for the children on 26 April 2012. One of the children, Sarah, stated that "I am sorry I know I am not allowed to say anything until the debrief at night". (At this girls age, I wouldn't have had any idea about what a 'debrief' was. This is quite strange.)

29. Investigations have revealed that the defendant is in severe financial difficulties that he owed in excess of $1million to family, friends, associates and financial institutions. (It's extremely ironic that these debts were needing to be paid ASAP and he had NO possible way of paying them off, and his wife also went missing only a few months before these heavy debts were due. The ONLY way he was able to pay off any of these debts was to kill his wife and claim on all of her life insurance. Here is one of the motives)

30. Enquiries to date have failed to identify any legitimate means of salvaging his debt or finances prior to July 2012 in order to meet his commitment to McHugh without a large influx of funds from these insurance policies. (Once again, it's a little ironic that the ONLY way he could come up with $1million was to get the $1million from his wife's life insurance policy. She had to die for this to happen.)

31. On the 12 April 2012 in the week leading up to the deceased's death, the defendant contacted one insurer, about one of the deceased's policies but was not provided with any information as he was not the policy holder. (So you're telling me, that 7 days before ABC goes missing, GBC has already enquired about his wife's $1million policy? IMO this is premeditated. It's a little too coincidental that she died 7 days later after he enquired about it, when he was in DESPERATE need of this amount of money.

32. A further query was made on the 17 April 2012, by the Baden Clay financial advisor on a life insurance policy of the deceased. (Two days before she "goes missing and commits suicide". This is premeditated.)

33. On April 30 2012, soon after the defendant was advised that a body had been located, the defendant's financial advisor made a further query with one of the deceased's life insurers. (On the same day he found out his wife's body had been located, he called up for the third time to enquire about the $1million.)

34. The defendant urgently sought a death certificate to be issued for the deceased. When a certificate was issued, on 21 May 2012, the defendant lodged claims in relation to each of these policies and had further asked that these claims be expedited. (You certainly needed the claims to be processed ASAP, didn't you? Because your largest debts of $290,000 were due within just 5 weeks on the 30th of June.)

35. Lawfully intercepted telephone calls on one of the defendant's phone lines supports that the defendant had used his parents to assist him in covertly contacting Toni McHugh on his behalf. (Why did you need to "lay low" GBC? And why did you need your mummy and daddy to call your mistress? If you are innocent and had nothing to hide, then you would have called her yourself on your own phone. Clearly you didn't want anyone to find out what you were talking about.)

These motives stick out in my mind-

1. He needed money very quickly in order to pay huge debts that were due in the coming weeks in the sum of $290,000.

2. He wanted to leave his wife for another woman.

3. He couldn't afford a divorce. He had to leave her in some other way whilst also gaining $$$ at the same time, instead of losing more money.

4. He couldn't even afford to live normally without overdrawing money from his credit cards ($45,000 credit card debt), so he needed money from elsewhere, and he clearly wasn't going to make it from his job at Century 21.

5. His wife was also a financial burden on him. She didn't have a separate job with her own income. His mistress T.M had her own means to fund her own life, unlike ABC who was relying on GBC and his business. Her income and livelihood was coming from their business that was making absolutely no money.

Once again, these are just MOO and I am no expert or super intelligent person. These are just my observations and thoughts that I believe :).

33. On April 30 2012, soon after the defendant was advised that a body had been located, the defendant's financial advisor made a further query with one of the deceased's life insurers. (On the same day he found out his wife's body had been located, he called up for the third time to enquire about the $1million.)

This advice to GBC by police at his office on 30 April 2012 was before the body had been identified!!!!
 
I think physiologists were called in to help the children through the trauma.

Psychological Debriefing for children

While children and young people are equally affected by traumatic events, the specific manifestations of their symptomatology occur among a developmental perspective .The cognitive development of preschool children (less than 5 years) is more limited. Their thinking is concrete and egotistical and they are unable to imagine ways in which the trauma could be prevented or altered. They may appear withdrawn or subdued and re-enact the trauma in a very factual and descriptive way through their play.

http://ispub.com/IJPSY/1/1/12214

There are a number of sites regarding this.
http://www.health.vic.gov.au/chiefpsychiatrist/creatingsafety/ntac/module10.pdf
 
BBM for emphasis..


well, Stell , that's my fave bit, really.. it's where one is truly obligated to suspend any logic at all. Let's enter into the Gerard/Toni sphere of thought for a few seconds..

She has completely done her block at him not 18 hours previously.. her words.. ' I lost it, I was in a rage , '... she pretends she is interested in Alisons actual welfare, to boot, by stating that Alison deserves to know she, Toni, will be there.. like, as if.. What Alison deserves from both Toni and Gerard has not exactly been a driving force up until that moment , but let's take it on it's face..

She leaves Gerard with the ultimatum. Alison isn't to go .. I presume that Toni means that merely by Gerard telling Alison Toni will be there will do the trick.. that Alison wont go, and she , Toni will be free to enjoy this conference, which from her statements all up, conferences seem to be the highlight of her life.. all that buzz and backslapping etc.. they meant a lot to her.

Does Gerard trudge home and lay this news out on Alison?? I very much doubt it. Doubt if he had told Alison by 8.3pm because Alison is calmly speaking with Olivia re a sleepover .. Alison hasn't rung Kate Rankin to cancel their arrangement to meet the next morning ( Gerard is out of the loop about this particular meeting ) .. and at no time does Alison ring Kate to cancel, not then, not later ,and not when she gets up early to 'go for a walk'. Of course, now we know she couldn't. She was dead.

So Toni , obviously, goes to the conference.. has Gerard rang her to tell her to suck it up , Alison just wouldn't co-operate and Toni will have to deal with it? or.. I tried, Toni, but I just couldn't get it across without dropping you in it.?? or.. .bad luck , GG , can you pretend to be ill and not go??

not a bit of it. And they have the means to contact each other by phone, but this call that isn't made is equivalent to the dog that didn't bark in the night..

Toni knows two people from Gerards office are going to it. ..the evening before she even had advice to Gerard about how he can afford to send two. She rings Gerard, she says, at the lunch break from the conference, this is about 1pm ( Gerard is mid burble with detectives ) to tell him Alison isn't at the conference.. no mention of why Kate Rankin isn't at it from Toni.. just Alison.. From Toni's position, realistically, both Kate Rankin and Alison are 'missing'...

If Alison isn't at the conference,.. where does Toni think she is? and why does she take the risk to ring Gerard to tell him?? She told him that Alison wasn't to go, so what's the mystery to Toni? Alison could be standing right next to him as far as Toni should know.. right at his elbow, if she isn't at the conference, surely this is such a peculiar risk to take at this stage of their entwinement... Alison could be right there in his office, leaning over his desk, or in the car with him showing property now that she has agreed to not go to the conference, why does Toni take this enormous risk in ringing Gerard at that time ?

unless she actually DID get a call from Gerard which neither are mentioning... a quick buzz before all this police stuff, or a call from someone else on the sly, who isn't being scrutinised as closely as Gerard is that morning.. unless she already knows that Alison is 'missing'..

Like you, I cant see Toni girding her girlish loins in happy anticipation of the great time she is going to have at the conference with this conundrum still unresolved, and serenely turning up at the seminar, flags flying.. Just cant see that at all.

But Trooper, if she did get a call from someone, it would need to be someone in the loop, so to speak, and weren't all the BC phones and OW phone checked out by police? Even if Allison's phone was used, then the call could be tracked. It is very odd though that she made a call to GBC, with the possibility that Allison could have been beside him (if TMcH knew nothing). Perhaps she couldn't contain her curiosity and just had to call, regardless of any risk.
 
Thanks kiwijayne. Is that a wreath for Allison on the fence?

I would say yes.

I was going to get out to take more photos but there where lots of people around. My guess for the building site and also getting ready for Monday.
 
It surprised me that EBC is not a witness.
She was the first person GBC called from his mobile the morning Allison went missing.
 
It surprised me that EBC is not a witness.
She was the first person GBC called from his mobile the morning Allison went missing.

Probably worried she can't 1) Keep her story straight or 2) she can't keep her story straight lol
 
But Trooper, if she did get a call from someone, it would need to be someone in the loop, so to speak, and weren't all the BC phones and OW phone checked out by police? Even if Allison's phone was used, then the call could be tracked. It is very odd though that she made a call to GBC, with the possibility that Allison could have been beside him (if TMcH knew nothing). Perhaps she couldn't contain her curiosity and just had to call, regardless of any risk.

When did G borrow the Flegg phone?
 
This was Allison's house about an hour ago. A hive of activity.

View attachment 44449

It's been like this throughout the construction next door. Maybe they're using it as site office? It has been discussed weather it isowned by the childcare?

Thank you all for these latest posts. They make me feel so inadequate in verbalising my thoughts, you are all so clever and well spoken!
 
Marly or Makara (or any clever ws member out there :) ) I recall that some (long) time ago we were looking at aerial shots of the BC property. From memory, we were able to see that a car could drive around the back and could be accessed from the back patio, does that sound right? I can't locate the photos and I could be remembering it incorrectly, but it might be food for thought if we can look at them again - does anyone know the ones I mean?
 
It's been like this throughout the construction next door. Maybe they're using it as site office? It has been discussed weather it isowned by the childcare?

Thank you all for these latest posts. They make me feel so inadequate in verbalising my thoughts, you are all so clever and well spoken!

It is owned by the childcare people there was talk of turning it into a training facility.
 
You know if this debrief was done by people who loved and supported Allison then I would have no problem accepting the situation and I would say great the girls are being cared for. BUT ....the fact it is done by people who have not given police statements when asked, who have appeared in court to speak with a hidden agenda of Allisons ineptitude and sickness. Who continue to deride her amazing accomplishments.

In fact Allison was constantly trying to fix her marriage, make herself more understanding and open - she wanted her family above all costs. She wanted her extended family happy and proud. This was her aim - unfortunately she was never ever good enough for them.

Given what has come out in the trial so far I understand where you are coming from Liadan. The reality though is that until GBC's arrest as the Dad, he was the person responsible for his girls and therefore any debriefing they had. I am sure that the police are aware of that and that appropriate counselling will have been given to the girls. If any person has been subject to or involved with any manipulative debriefing as a result of this tragedy I believe that adds to the crime, and I hope any perpetrators are exposed. Whilst acknowledging the potential there was manipulative debriefing, there is always hope that in amongst possible manipulation, that there was some constructive and loving debrief too. Waiting for justice, hoping for confession and remorse from the person or people responsible for this horrible crime. Thinking of all who grieve. Hoping that all can rebuild their lives.
 
I think the house itself does look nicer having had some attention, but the trees, shrubs, vines etc are what can make an ordinary home look special.
I don't think that what they have done to the garden and surrounds is an improvement.
I bet those remaining few trees end up going too.


It does and with the trees gone too.
 
Does anyone remember back in the olden days when everyone had Nokia phones? You could set your phone's location to display on the screen. What it was displaying was actually the tower that it had the best connection to, and you could "change suburbs" by walking from one end of the house to the other. Same principle.

Okay so I'm a nerd...and getting a bit old.

If I check the weather on my iPhone with location services, my kitchen and loungeroom are in different suburbs to each other.
 
Marly or Makara (or any clever ws member out there :) ) I recall that some (long) time ago we were looking at aerial shots of the BC property. From memory, we were able to see that a car could drive around the back and could be accessed from the back patio, does that sound right? I can't locate the photos and I could be remembering it incorrectly, but it might be food for thought if we can look at them again - does anyone know the ones I mean?

I remember once seeing a photo of a pile of compost out the side/back but only saw those once early on..
 
I think the house itself does look nicer having had some attention, but the trees, shrubs, vines etc are what can make an ordinary home look special.
I don't think that what they have done to the garden and surrounds is an improvement.
I bet those remaining few trees end up going too.

I agree, but more importantly, DID THEY FIND A PHONE?
 
Marly or Makara (or any clever ws member out there :) ) I recall that some (long) time ago we were looking at aerial shots of the BC property. From memory, we were able to see that a car could drive around the back and could be accessed from the back patio, does that sound right? I can't locate the photos and I could be remembering it incorrectly, but it might be food for thought if we can look at them again - does anyone know the ones I mean?

Thinking, I remember that photo of the carport with a yellow camper and blue tarp wedged there. I can't find that one either.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
76
Guests online
2,076
Total visitors
2,152

Forum statistics

Threads
601,856
Messages
18,130,802
Members
231,162
Latest member
Kaffro
Back
Top