GBC Trial General Discussion Thread #4

[alioop]

Paragraph 24 of the agreed statement of facts says that exhibit 178 contains the details of Allison and GBC's assets and liabilities at 29 April 2012. So that's the reason why the prosecution hasn't produced witnesses like the forensic accountant and the ex partners to give evidence on the loans, debts assets, etc. it's all neatly summarised in a statement that is simple for the jury to understand. The same with the insurances on Allison and GBC. There is an exhibit of a table showing each of these so they don't need witnesses to get this info before the jury.


http://multimedia.aapnewswire.com.au/Search.aspx?search=Baden+clay

 

[Couldbe]

When I have doubts about GBC being guilty I just have to remember the scratches on his face. Conclusive evidence, no matter what he says.

Hi jens ...... most likely from a female ... named Allison (even though he said that Allison had never scratched him on the face ..... likely to be just another lie). With such emphasis on the scratches, one would think that if it had been TM then she would have offered that evidence!!

 

[Saxons]

I have just made my first visit to Kholo Creek to pay my respects. A few things struck me as it gives so many more perspectives to actually see the bridge.

That track down is STEEP. Even my photo doesnt do it justice. It looks slippery as well, so trekking up and down it in the dark dragging/carrying a body seems next to impossible for one person to do.


I am not sure which way GBC would have driven to the bridge. I went out there via Rafting Ground Rd from Brookfield Road, and came back via Moggill Rd. No matter which way you go - its a long drive. And now I am completely convinced Allison didnt walk to Kholo Creek! Mt Crosby Rd has no shoulders or grass verges to walk on in a lot of areas, and walking on the road even in daylight would be dangerous, as the traffic is quite fast. In the dark? No way in the world. It makes me hope the jury got the same perspective of this as I did



The memorial was beautiful in the sun today. RIP Allison.

 

[volunteer]

NBC would have had to go through that roundabout to get to GBC;s wouldn't he? And OBW? It would be interesting to see what times their cars came through as I doubt they'd go through the roundabout to get to Anstead.

No. He could have gone up Kilkivan Ave, along Aberfeldy st. and Aronia Stnto Brookfield rd. Bypassing the roundabout completely.

 

[LadyBird1]

I wonder if the defence will use this in summing up. If the prosecution case is that Alison was murdered and back home by 1.48 then if Alison had gone for a late night walk to clear her head (there is ample evidence she had plenty on her mind-marital stress, weverevfinancial stress, coping with long term depression, back in the workforce full time and all the juggling that entails etc.) then what were the cars doing there and could they be somehow be independently connected to Alison's disappearance?

Happygo
With all due respect: All the evidence would suggest that the Clay family would stoop to anything at all to protect G's innocence. Allison's justice appears irrelevant to them.

My uncharitable opinion was formed when they spoke openly in a Court of Law, with a world audience, of Allison's character in altogether negative tones.
They used this opportunity to denigrate Allison to pieces.

No-one, not her blood family or her friends, or her work mates can substantiate anything they said. No-one.
Allison was murdered. Brutally, callously evilly.

To speak of the dead like this is an evil thing. They ran rough-shod over her, even in death.
Thus also they portrayed their own natures, openly in the Court of Law with a world audience.

The Latin phrases De mortuis nihil nisi bonum “Of the dead, nothing unless good.”
De mortuis nil nisi bene [dicendum]
“Of the dead, nothing [spoken] unless good.” indicate that it is socially inappropriate to speak ill of the dead

 

[Milisi]

point number 2about the phone , very good...makes me think there was one or more phones happening concurrently.. Maybe the prepaid variety...wouldn't show up on phone records...

QUOTE=spratsmum;10706397]Just a couple of observations from some the posts recently:

1. The Life Assurance policy - in this situation and probably many others (terminal illness, coma, expected death) it would be appropriate to contact the Insurance company in the days leading up to the discovery of Allison's body. People who are preparing for someone to die or in this found dead do these things and on checklists for this sort situation you would find contacting the insurance company high on the list. Particularly if they Insurance agent, I think the company would have been aware that Allison was missing. Just to be totally practical, as there financial situation was so precarious, they would have needed money to pay for the funeral, funerals are required to be paid upfront, and are in excess of $5000.

2. I wonder why GBC phone records don't show him being hounded by Westpac re the missed credit card payments and overlimit spends. They are usually quite relentless in their pursuit of defaulters. Did they use the card between February and April? banks usually won't let you use the card once you are overlimit and in default.

3. To a young child, if Mum goes for a walk three times, she goes every day, she went last Monday - so she walks every Monday, there reasoning is not the same as an adult. The same goes for "coaching" children, they would remember the latest idea put into there minds, having said that though they can be brutally honest.

4.The roundabout and all the other things we don't quite understand - there is so much in this case that has not been explained - including the cause of death, transporting to Kholo Creek, the importance of the phone (I wonder if it was of that much importance, or the police where searching hoping it may give them some clues) and the intriguing roundabout, that the prosecution case is very circumstantial,but once that silly man put himself on the stand and exposed all of his lies, you just could not believe him about anything.

5. The scratches - could someone more knowledgeable tell me if you are smothered in your sleep, would you wake up and therefore be able to inflict the scratches, or do you just slip away. Babies who smother don't seem to wake themselves and cry and with plastic bags children (in movies) seem to lose consciousness quickly.[/QUOTE]

 

[kiwi50]

Im a bit frustrated by the concept that GBC would not ever never couldnt kill his wife
with 3 daughters in the house and oh he would never leave his daughters alone.
He has low morals he is a liar he is so many low things.......of course he would
leave his daughters at home by themselves of course he would kill his wife with them
in the house....why is this so hard to believe......he isnt a good nice person he is
the opposite of it.....MOO.....:tantrum:

I agree, I don't think he'd have any qualms at all leaving the girls alone when asleep, not sure why he stresses this as if it would be a worse crime than killing Allison. Quite bizarre.

 

[Anonthemouse]

Can someone please tell me if what was presented to the court to deny bail is considered part of what the jury gets to see or mull over as part of the case as a whole.?
Thanks

 

[BreakingNews]

No. Neither Phil's, Jocelyn's nor Ben Bassingthwaite or the Forensic Accountant gave evidence. There was much in the bail hearings which didn't come out in the trial. It seems weird but I'm assuming the defence had it removed because it would appear prejudicial.

I wonder if this was because of the 'agreed' list?

 

[catswhiskers]

It could be argued
1. he lived close to his parents and initially asked them for help. He was not close to Alison's parents and may not have wanted to alarm them unnecessarily and this early stage.
2. Why would he be worried about ringing TM when his wife was missing
3. Was he ever asked to make Alison's pyjamas available?
4. The phone is a mystery. The fact that it was not found despite extensive searcing by police and SES etc causes me to wonder whether tracking devices were working correctly. GBC did not have the opportunity to run out and find it once the police were at his house. This seems to be one of the biggest mysteries of this case
5. Yep agree the blood in the Captiva is a biggie. However as there is no evidence he actually cleaned the car (otherwise the contents of the vacuum cleaner would have been submitted as evidence) were any other inquiries made of the girls whether mum ever sat in the back seat as a passenger? A long, long shot but was it ever asked? Why was the blond hair that was found in the rivulet of blood not examined in more detail. I understand if the root is not present that there is no DNA but surely with todays modern scientific advances they should be able to tell whether the hair is chemically coloured and whether the colour matched the recent (only the day before) colour treatment. If this was the case it would place the hair in the car in blood post the hairdressing appointment and would have been the clincher for me. Why wasn't it tested and if it was why were we not given the result?
6. Despite lots of speculation NBC has never been charged as an accomplice. There was no evidence presented that he was an accomplice
7. Is it a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't. He would have been acused as gutless if he did not take the stand.
8. Certainly lack of remorse if you are guilty. And he did not seem to have much remorse for his other "dastardly" behaviour

Just addressing your first point only here Can you imagine being the parent and not being informed that your son or daughter was missing until after well after all manner of others including the spouse's parents, friends, business colleagues and even police were involved. It honestly beggars belief that Allison's parents weren't contacted earlier than they were, and that they were told in such an offhanded manner as well.

 

[Trooper]

One of the problems I have with this case is that I have read all the statements from committal. However, they were not witnesses at trial and not subjected to a trail defence lawyers cross examination. Some of the committal statements painted a dire financial situation. It may well have been a dire financial situation but GBC was not given the opportunity to present his financial side properly. The jury have not been shown these, nor can they be used as part of the case. The fact that GBC was not a good financial manager, treated friends and business associates poorly, lied, cheated etc. does not make him a nice bloke but probably is not directly relevant to the case

the statements at the committal have been agreed to in respect to this trial.. a quick perusal of the Agreed events... that is, the prosecutor and the defence agree to the substance and veracity of these events, will make this plain..

It is not a matter of 'he well may have been in a dire financial situation', he was, indisputably and categorically.. this has been agreed to , and Gerard's opining in the witness stand that 'things were looking up', is merely an unverified and hopeful opinion, to which he is entitled, except it isn't borne out by the agreed to Facts of the Matter..

I noticed you like to play devils advocate, and it's a game I enjoy as well, .. on that basis... one could ask, why didn't Gerard have a tame CPA as a defence witness to expound on the viability of his business and the way he ran it?? The short answer is... no CPA would testify to that and retain his/her registration as a CPA.. no accountant could do that , either, and retain any possibility of employment. Because it just isn't so...There are thousands of CPA"s and ACC. in QLD.. not one could be found to bolster up , from a study of the books, and a simple flowchart of his financial position, . that is.... the reality, the actuality of his situation, and state, on oath, that it 'was looking up'.

The fact that the defence DIDNT call up a CPA, in regard to the money from the insurance payout being the PRIME motivation for Alison's murder tells us all we need to know in that regard.. As a motivator, the money is all, and in the light of the witnesses called for the defence in regard to his business failings and his imminent collapse, the Three C's only testified to the money he owed them.. ($ 280,000.00) not the remaining $600,000.00 owing and due come June 30th .

 

[Amee]

The Prosecutor tendered a number of admissions to the court, including a text message from the accused to his wife at 6.41am on April 20, 2012.

He also tendered a copy of assets and liabilities belonging to the Baden-Clays that totalled $74,663.

The jury saw a number admissions made by the defendant in relation to the trial, relating to generally uncontested facts, such as the timing of phone calls, the sending of emails between Bruce Overland and Toni McHugh, the purchase of cars and interviews conducted by police.

It also contained an admission that a diagram showing a unit plan that was drawn in the journal of Allison Baden-Clay was done by the hand of the accused.

It included an admission the couple had not paid any amounts owing on a Westpac credit card between January 24 and May 30, 2012

http://m.news.com.au/QLD/fi11785752.htm

 

[Amee]

The jury was shown an agreement for sale of shares and units that belonged to Jocelyn Frost, Benjamin Bassingthwaite and Baden-Clay’s real estate business on November 23, 2011.

He tendered a deed of variation that related to the same parties and a second guarantor, called Settle Westside Pty Ltd, dated December 20, 2011.

The jury was shown a number of clauses which set out payments of $180,000 to Ms Frost and $90,000 to Mr Bassingthwaite be made by June 30, 2012.

http://m.news.com.au/QLD/fi11785752.htm

The admissions also revealed that Mr Baden-Clay contacted Asteron Life Insurance the day after his wife’s body was discovered to ask about making a claim.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-husbands-affair/story-e6frg6nf-1226966903008

 

[catswhiskers]

Her Honour: Very revealing that he didn't even look for them whereas one would, if your loved one went 'missing' without explanation, try to look for all the relevant pieces to the puzzle.

Thank you for contributing towards clear thinking on this thread. Appreciate your posts. Question: 'Will the Jury see it as clearly?'
Hopefully the Prosecution will include this in their closing argument and the Judge may give some direction re evidence. My opinion only.

I think if you woke up and found a loved one missing, before assuming they were on a walk you might look about and see if there was any sign that they had changed into exercise gear - knowing what specific gear they may have changed into seems less important than establishing whether or not the pajamas or other sleeping gear was on the floor/bed or in the washing basket etc.

 

[Trooper]

a correction in my post , re ' imminent collapse ' of Gerard's franchise real estate venture.. it wasn't imminent, it had collapsed.. comprehensively, his income had stopped, his Rent Roll had reverted back to the partners due to his inability to raise the loan to pay the interest (never mind the capital sum ) on the purchase, his payment to Charles Tarbey in regard to the franchise name rental had inexorably risen to an unpayable sum, his payment of interest on the loans by the Three C's had not been paid, his credit cards had not been attended to, his staff hadn't been paid, his actual rent on the premises hadn't been paid, and couldn't be paid, and even the one bill he had to pay, the Insurance Premium on Alison's life , was in jeopardy, with the payment of $1100.00 due April 9th and extended to May 6th , if a part payment came thru..

Alison had $20 in her bank account that Friday.

In anyone's world.. that's a collapsed business and also, a collapsed personal financial situation.

 

[Mumma Bear]

I have just made my first visit to Kholo Creek to pay my respects. A few things struck me as it gives so many more perspectives to actually see the bridge.

That track down is STEEP. Even my photo doesnt do it justice. It looks slippery as well, so trekking up and down it in the dark dragging/carrying a body seems next to impossible for one person to do.

View attachment 54170
I am not sure which way GBC would have driven to the bridge. I went out there via Rafting Ground Rd from Brookfield Road, and came back via Moggill Rd. No matter which way you go - its a long drive. And now I am completely convinced Allison didnt walk to Kholo Creek! Mt Crosby Rd has no shoulders or grass verges to walk on in a lot of areas, and walking on the road even in daylight would be dangerous, as the traffic is quite fast. In the dark? No way in the world. It makes me hope the jury got the same perspective of this as I did

View attachment 54171

The memorial was beautiful in the sun today. RIP Allison.

View attachment 54169

NB Earthworks have been done since April 2012 (to create the flat area) and the path was previously much less steep.

I hope the jury got the same sense I did on visiting Kholo Creek - it feels like a place to dump a body, not a place to take your own life.

 

[louisepiglet]

When driving home from work the other night I set the trip meter back to zero so I could assess how far 14kms actually is. It is a bloody long way!

 

[BreakingNews]

I agree, I don't think he'd have any qualms at all leaving the girls alone when asleep, not sure why he stresses this as if it would be a worse crime than killing Allison. Quite bizarre.

In court I thought it weird that he stressed this point too. He had no qualms about having several affairs, belittling Allison at every opportunity, lying to his business partners, not paying his debts, insisting that his business was going well, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul (sometimes), deceiving the community about himself, etc etc, so most definitely he would not thing twice about leaving the children alone while he went for a little drive. :jail::jail::jail:

 

[BreakingNews]

a correction in my post , re ' imminent collapse ' of Gerard's franchise real estate venture.. it wasn't imminent, it had collapsed.. comprehensively, his income had stopped, his Rent Roll had reverted back to the partners due to his inability to raise the loan to pay the interest (never mind the capital sum ) on the purchase, his payment to Charles Tarbey in regard to the franchise name rental had inexorably risen to an unpayable sum, his payment of interest on the loans by the Three C's had not been paid, his credit cards had not been attended to, his staff hadn't been paid, his actual rent on the premises hadn't been paid, and couldn't be paid, and even the one bill he had to pay, the Insurance Premium on Alison's life , was in jeopardy, with the payment of $1100.00 due April 9th and extended to May 6th , if a part payment came thru..

Alison had $20 in her bank account that Friday.

In anyone's world.. that's a collapsed business and also, a collapsed personal financial situation.

I agree 100%, Trooper. Yet in court he was still insisting that his business was OK. He is either in denial or totally delusional. Or he believes all the lies he has told.

 

[Saxons]

NB Earthworks have been done since April 2012 (to create the flat area) and the path was previously much less steep.

I hope the jury got the same sense I did on visiting Kholo Creek - it feels like a place to dump a body, not a place to take your own life.

That makes more sense if the track was less steep before the grading of the memorial area. I'll have to search back and find the photos from back then. Do you think its still something only one person by themselves could have done? Assuming Allison weighed roughly 70kg,
and in the pitch dark, it seems like it would have been very difficult.

And how would GBC have known if another vehicle had stopped to check out what was going on and he was halfway down or up the track carrying/dragging Allison? Could he have hidden the Captiva completely off the road? If it WAS the silver Captiva, its not like it was a dark colour that would blend in with the bushes.

It just seems to me that there almost had to have been 2 people to carry this out - even if one one just acted as a lookout. I dont know who that person might have been (?NBC)- just puzzling.

I agree. Its not a place that I think she would have tried to take her own life at all. Its a eerie place. Its a beautiful memorial, but I couldn't shake the feeling of uneasiness. Its a place where a beautiful woman was cruelly dumped and left to the elements.