GBC Trial General Discussion Thread #4

[Thinking]

In court I thought it weird that he stressed this point too. He had no qualms about having several affairs, belittling Allison at every opportunity, lying to his business partners, not paying his debts, insisting that his business was going well, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul (sometimes), deceiving the community about himself, etc etc, so most definitely he would not thing twice about leaving the children alone while he went for a little drive. :jail::jail::jail:

Hi BN Given your experience with serving on a jury in the past (in a murder trial from memory?) - which way do you think you would be leaning if you were serving on this one and would you feel firm about it, or wavering if others were strongly disagreeing? Hope this makes sense. TIA!

 

[BJsleuth]

When I have doubts about GBC being guilty I just have to remember the scratches on his face. Conclusive evidence, no matter what he says.

Oh yeah! The tissue under her nails which came from a second person (Not Allison) even if there was not enough to match up to GBC combined with the scratches on his face. What are the chances of those things occurring at the same point in time, let alone when Allison goes missing then later turns up deceased. If it was a suicide, she would not have that DNA under her nails.

 

[Trooper]

In court I thought it weird that he stressed this point too. He had no qualms about having several affairs, belittling Allison at every opportunity, lying to his business partners, not paying his debts, insisting that his business was going well, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul (sometimes), deceiving the community about himself, etc etc, so most definitely he would not thing twice about leaving the children alone while he went for a little drive. :jail::jail::jail:

oh hell no. didn't he go to 'conferences' in Sydney and go back to the office to 'work late ', and spend nights at TM's unit and flit about boffing all and sundry leaving the kids at home with a 'severely depressed woman , who was so dependant on him and hopeless and left all the heavy lifting to him in regards to the mopping and dusting and dishes and cooking and childcare?? '

if he left them for whole nights with someone who was incapable, he would surely , definitely leave them by themselves for a quick jaunt to the Kholo Bridge..

just the fact that he says he definitely wouldn't is fair grounds to conclude that he unequivocally did. Gerard couldn't lie straight in a morgue.

 

[BJsleuth]

I wonder if this was because of the 'agreed' list?

It was. It just didn't seem to have as much impact as the actual witnesses on the stand. KWIM?

 

[royster]

Countdown on for tomorrow .

 

[BJsleuth]

Yes, it would be more logical to look for what you last saw them wearing, not to check possibly the closet, the laundry hamper, the washing baskets, on the clothesline, the dryer etc for what they might be wearing. He had to make it fit the story of her going for a walk.

 

[Trooper]

Countdown on for tomorrow .

First up will be Mr Byrne and his idea of Gerard's story..... I already know this, and in the whole vast tapestry, the intricate embroidery of it, the ludicrous performance, only a few things stood out, for me..

'in my mind, I wasn't in a relationship'..

'I didn't know what a Crime Scene was'..

' I didn't know what C.I.D. meant'.

'I didn't know what a formal statement was'.

'I was naïeve and stupid'

4 and 1/2 verifiable facts out of a mountain of drivel. Gerard isn't naieve.

then, Mr Fuller, or Mr Boyle for the closing statements of the prosecution..

 

[alioop]

Can someone please tell me if what was presented to the court to deny bail is considered part of what the jury gets to see or mull over as part of the case as a whole.?
Thanks

No. Only what is presented at trial.

 

[alioop]

NB Earthworks have been done since April 2012 (to create the flat area) and the path was previously much less steep.

I hope the jury got the same sense I did on visiting Kholo Creek - it feels like a place to dump a body, not a place to take your own life.

Yes, it has changed. The first time I went I was able to get down the path no problems though I didn't go all the way down. When I went a couple of weeks ago it was much steeper and there was no way I would try to go down there now.

 

[Thinking]

:blushing:

Thanks HGL for your thought provoking comments today. It is certainly a worry that there could be a hung jury in this matter. It is a huge problem that we have no real definition for "beyond reasonable doubt" and I think it ends up being a largely personal concept. As another WS member said recently, I think some people think the jury need to be convinced "beyond ALL doubt", that is,with hard, non-refutable evidence - but I don't think this is actually the case. I'm not sure if this article has been shared yet, but I found it quite interesting:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...e-define-reasonable-doubt-20120523-1z5o9.html

After reading this and considering what they jury have seen and heard (and granting that we haven't yet heard the great storytellers do their summing up ) - do you still think you would say "not guilty" as a juror? I have lost sleep about this too.

Me again, sorry to keep reappearing today everyone :blushing: - I am supposedly "working" but am completely and utterly distracted by this case as you have probably gathered...

I found the second "comment" under the article which I linked above, very interesting. It was written by a reader who claims to have been a juror in the past. They mention what they were told to consider regarding reasonable doubt as follows:

In the trial I was a juror for it was explained that if there was any "reasonable" scenario in which the defendant could be innocent we had to pick not guilty. He didn't define reasonable, but he managed to define doubt which helped quite a bit.


Can anyone think of a reasonable scenario, on the evidence given at this trial, in which GBC could be innocent? The only one I could think of at a stretch was that maybe Allison heard a noise while she was watching TV (GBC and kids in bed) so went outside to investigate - and was attacked by a would-be robber (leaves in hair, screams heard), then taken away and placed at Kholo Creek. But this doesn't explain the scratches (there is no plausible alternative to these in my opinion) or the blood in the car .....

 

[Amee]

The information was one of almost 30 admissions crown prosecutor Todd Fuller said had been accepted as facts as he closed his case against Baden-Clay.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/06/25/diary-shows-allison-baden-clays-pain

 

[Fluffykins]

When I have doubts about GBC being guilty I just have to remember the scratches on his face. Conclusive evidence, no matter what he says.

Yes, and together with the injuries to his chest, clear evidence that he was involved in an altercation the night his wife disappeared.

I believe only one of the doctors who gave evidence about the facial scratches thought they could have been self inflicted - Dr. Rena Kumar.

She agreed it was possible the marks on Baden-Clay’s face were caused by a razor.

“If it’s an old razor yes you can, but it seems to me a bit wider than you would inflict with a razor, but certainly you can,” she said.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/day-7-gerard-badenclay-on-trial-accused-of-murdering-wife-allison/story-fnihsrf2-1226959211797

 

[Aliwonders]

I agree, I don't think he'd have any qualms at all leaving the girls alone when asleep, not sure why he stresses this as if it would be a worse crime than killing Allison. Quite bizarre.

I believe that GBC the man he wanted everyone to percieve him as, would not have left his children in the house alone, I don't believe that he would have killed his wife and I don't believe that he would have dumped her body under a bridge. NOT AT ALL. I don't believe he would have had numerous affairs and did dodgy business dealings either. I don't believe that he would have constantly lied to his wife and indeed his mistress and business partners. I don't believe that he would have deceived his parents, family and friends either. But tragically this man was living a double life. He had a facade, A different set of values to those he knew full well were right. He knew what he was doing was wrong but he was too weak to control himself and then before long he was in so deeply that everything he was portraying was in danger of being exposed. A Divorce, Bankruptcy, Embarassment, Losing his girls, Losing his status, losing the respect he had worked so long to build up. That is the crux of this matter. Was GBC capable of living a double life???? Was he a man who was respected because he WAS respectful, Was he a man who was seen as honest because he WAS honest, Was he seen as a family man because he was so skilled at caring for his family. Food for thought and JMO!!

 

[royster]

Alioop- can u answer me a question. Do you think in cases like this GBC own defence will be happy to lose? Or is that just completely not how this law game works?

 

[Her Honour]

No probs Herhonour, I have tough toes and am not a criminal lawyer so I am happy for any assistance!

You're lovely, Sexpert. Sexy expert, that is, not expert on sex, or, sorry, ohIdon'tknowIshutupnow.

Really though, can't answer anything directed to you as:

1. It's rude; and
2. You know more.

 

[Couldbe]

GBC's scratches to his face ....... when pondering if, in fact, these may have been caused by TM? Maybe I am completely off-track, but to consider that she had, I conclude that it is unlikely ... because there would have been quite some indignity and pain experienced by GBC; which should have evoked an apology by TM, and she would not have been forgiven quickly by GBC, interrupting their love for one another.

Also don't believe that she may have inflicted them upon while trying to protect Allison from GBC.

Allison is the only person who would have scratched his face ...... another mistake was for him to try and shave over them to misrepresent their cause.

 

[Her Honour]

oh hell no. didn't he go to 'conferences' in Sydney and go back to the office to 'work late ', and spend nights at TM's unit and flit about boffing all and sundry leaving the kids at home with a 'severely depressed woman , who was so dependant on him and hopeless and left all the heavy lifting to him in regards to the mopping and dusting and dishes and cooking and childcare?? '

if he left them for whole nights with someone who was incapable, he would surely , definitely leave them by themselves for a quick jaunt to the Kholo Bridge..

just the fact that he says he definitely wouldn't is fair grounds to conclude that he unequivocally did. Gerard couldn't lie straight in a morgue.

Oh man. The inimitable Trooper! Thank you for taking our minds off the suspenseful wait.

 

[Cattail]

Yes, it has changed. The first time I went I was able to get down the path no problems though I didn't go all the way down. When I went a couple of weeks ago it was much steeper and there was no way I would try to go down there now.

I hope this was made clear to the jury on their field trip


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[Trooper]

:blushing:


Me again, sorry to keep reappearing today everyone :blushing: - I am supposedly "working" but am completely and utterly distracted by this case as you have probably gathered...

I found the second "comment" under the article which I linked above, very interesting. It was written by a reader who claims to have been a juror in the past. They mention what they were told to consider regarding reasonable doubt as follows:

In the trial I was a juror for it was explained that if there was any "reasonable" scenario in which the defendant could be innocent we had to pick not guilty. He didn't define reasonable, but he managed to define doubt which helped quite a bit.


Can anyone think of a reasonable scenario, on the evidence given at this trial, in which GBC could be innocent? The only one I could think of at a stretch was that maybe Allison heard a noise while she was watching TV (GBC and kids in bed) so went outside to investigate - and was attacked by a would-be robber (leaves in hair, screams heard), then taken away and placed at Kholo Creek. But this doesn't explain the scratches (there is no plausible alternative to these in my opinion) or the blood in the car .....

No Truly.. I do not think there is an alternative explanation.. the evidence given by Nige and Olivia in regard to Alison's depressive status is entirely anecdotal, unsupported by medical evidence, they are not medically qualified to conclude that, and in addition, they gave evidence that totally undercut their capability of rational conclusion .... Nige's silliness re the colour of her clothing, Olivia's unsupported claim of assistance gives their evidence no credence at all. On top of that, they have a clear and current motive to portray that scenario.. it isn't objective..

The Defence Medical witness , Dr Schramm , was handicapped in the extreme by not ever treating Alison, not ever meeting Alison, not being privy to her input into her own state of mind, and therefore stuck in the position of an opinion in the most broadest of terms. The Doctors who were her clinicians told a differing story.

Added to that, even the defence hasn't proposed a third party involvement.. at all. At any time. And wisely, too. That would require a whole other set of circumstances for Gerard to deal with defensively.

 

[Cattail]

GBC's scratches to his face ....... when pondering if, in fact, these may have been caused by TM? Maybe I am completely off-track, but to consider that she had, I conclude that it is unlikely ... because there would have been quite some indignity and pain experienced by GBC; which should have evoked an apology by TM, and she would not have been forgiven quickly by GBC, interrupting their love for one another.

Also don't believe that she may have inflicted them upon while trying to protect Allison from GBC.

Allison is the only person who would have scratched his face ...... another mistake was for him to try and shave over them to misrepresent their cause.

With the picture painted of TM as volatile, quick to anger, throwing things - I could very easily believe she did scratch him. But I can't see why he wouldn't have told the police it was her if she had done it.


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