General Discussion #7

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I found an interesting post on another forum here at WS. Here's the portion that intrigued me:

I found a mistake, or at least John Douglas has written differently in one of his books. In the appeals states brief it is stated RR .40: 3691-93 and it looks like it came also from the FBI that defendants bring knives to a crime scene. If my memory serves me the case John Douglas talks about in one of his books. The husband of the victim is suspect until he learns something. Criminals talk to each other in jail. They obviously have the time on their hands. They teach each other stuff, like don't break into a house with a weapon. If caught, and there is always a chance, you will get more time as you can say I only commited B AND E the state can say but with intent to do harm cause you brought a weapon with you. Logic tells you that every house in America has some kitchen knives. If you do break in, with your own knife, and eventually have a confrontation with the home owner and commit murder you get dp in some states cause it shows premeditated murder. If you were only there to rob why did you bring a weapon with you-clear intent. I swear it is in one of John Douglas's books. Since I use my public library I don't have a copy to quote. I can't remember the title either but I think the cover has his picture on it.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Poll: Did Darlie Routier murder her children?

I'm not sure what I think of this and I haven't been able to locate anything to either support or refute this concept just yet. (Of course, no matter how much information we find, it still can't account for every situation but it's an interesting thing to ponder nonetheless.) Any thoughts?

 

[Jenifred]

As posted by radar in Raven is Innocent Thread #3:

If Raven killed Janet as some have suggested after returning home from playing soccer, he would have had very little time to hide the knife. All of the knives in the house were taken by police and tested. If a knife was found in the surrounding area, Raven would have been considered a suspect.

What do you think about Raven's admitted collection of knives (the Christmas video "I like to collect knives.")? We don't know if his collection was taken and tested. In fact, they weren't on the list of seized items on the search warrant. And it would be quite easy for Raven to lie and say--everything is here, not a single one missing.

 

[juliagoulia]

There was a knife (with case) listed on the search warrant of the Durango. A "Bear Claw" knife, I believe. But you're right, we don't know about the other knives that might have been on the property.

 

[ewwwinteresting]

If I remember right, LE took a complete set of blocked knives from the kitchen. I can't imagine someone entering the house (since no signs of break in), fumbling their way in the kitchen looking for a knife that wasn't in the block, going upstairs and stabbing Janet and then leaving with nothing but a laptop? I'm thinking this person brought his own knife and according to the above post, most of them wouldn't to avoid "intent"...so we either have a really lousy burglar that ended up murdering for a laptop or a really smart husband trying to look like a lousy burglar!

 

[snapple]

If I remember right, LE took a complete set of blocked knives from the kitchen. I can't imagine someone entering the house (since no signs of break in), fumbling their way in the kitchen looking for a knife that wasn't in the block, going upstairs and stabbing Janet and then leaving with nothing but a laptop? I'm thinking this person brought his own knife and according to the above post, most of them wouldn't to avoid "intent"...so we either have a really lousy burglar that ended up murdering for a laptop or a really smart husband trying to look like a lousy burglar!

That one has my vote...Although I'm not completly convinced on the smart part.

 

[lauriej]

If I remember right, LE took a complete set of blocked knives from the kitchen. I can't imagine someone entering the house (since no signs of break in), fumbling their way in the kitchen looking for a knife that wasn't in the block, going upstairs and stabbing Janet and then leaving with nothing but a laptop? I'm thinking this person brought his own knife and according to the above post, most of them wouldn't to avoid "intent"...so we either have a really lousy burglar that ended up murdering for a laptop or a really smart husband trying to look like a lousy burglar!

..yep........and i don't think there was a shortage of knives in that house,if we factor in raven's 'collection'.....

..i recall debating this with 'rooster' last june, when s/he brought up the possible robbery motive/rape motive.........as i said then, it's my belief that robbers rob, rapists rape, and murderers murder.
..i can't see a burglar passing up everything else in the house except a laptop, especially after murdering the 'witness', which would have bought him all sorts of extra time to look around for items to steal..even a beginner robber would also shake out her purse and take whatever cash was available..

..this crime scene ended in murder-----because it began as a murder.

 

[terminatrixator]

The crime scene ended in murder, because it was premeditated to end in murder.

Do we really know if Raven had a "collection"? Seems Raven liked to embellish much, (bought house as opposed to rent house) having two knives to him could have been "a collection." There was the bear claw knife found but did they find the "In case I run across a deer" buck knife?

I believe the Bird knew what he was doing, and decided to make it look like a buglarly and get rid of his precious knife collection if he had one, his laptop, and moved his precious VX so LE would not later trash it, so he could commit murder and then claim that his laptop was missing and not bring up his one or two piece "collection."

Notice the votes for Jealous female? Notice the votes for revenge. It's as though someone wants us to believe that it was a female that did this, then someone (rave himself and his the few family/friends that believe in his innocence) wants us to believe that it was a revenge.

Jealous Guy? No, that doesn't fit either, because a Jealous guy would have no need for Raven's Precious Lap Top and Janet would not cheat on Raven, she would leave him before bringing some other guy into the mix, she's not a cheater.

Nobody would want to take revenge against Janet, because she never did anything wrong to anyone. Her husband did.

If someone wanted to take revenge against Raven, they would not go after Janet for it because they WOULD HAVE KNOW that Raven didn't give two a crap about his wife because Raven is so obviously narcissistic.

Whomever hated Raven enough to want revenge knows it would only make Raven's life easier and smoother without Janet! I don't buy any of these theories whatsoever, and it leads me back to square one.

Raven coldly, calculatingly, premeditated the Murder of Janet Marie and the precious child she was carrying, and I believe he knew she was Pregnant!

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Raven coldly, calculatingly, premeditated the Murder of Janet Marie and the precious child she was carrying, and I believe he knew she was Pregnant!

I've been very troubled lately that if the above is true, then perhaps the only reason that Kaiden was spared is because it would have been too obvious who the perp was if both of them were murdered that night. I don't know the family so I really have no idea one way or the other but the rumors have Raven as not being the most attentive father in the world. Rumor has it that Kaiden is more of a burden and gets pushed off on other people all of the time while Raven dates, bikes, etc. Like I said - I have no way of knowing for sure - Raven might be a great father and all of the above could just be talk to make him look bad. But going away biking on your son's first conscious Halloween after his mother was murdered and you were fortunate enough to be spared that child - it just seems to me that a mourning parent would pull that child as close as possible and never let go. Yet some do mourn differently.

I guess what I'm saying is that I hope that Kaiden at least has a good Daddy in you, Raven.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

We've been told all along that this crime was not random. We've learned that the definition of not random according to the Mayor of (I think) Durham (in an article I posted somewhere) means that there was some relationship between the perp and the victim. And we know that in Janet's case, Kaiden was not harmed.

So the perp intentionally went after Janet and if there was some relationship between her and the perp, then the perp would likely know that Janet had a child. If the perp was not Raven, then why would someone go after Janet? She went to work and came home. By all accounts, it seems impossible that she was involved in anything that would cause someone to want to harm her. The only way that I could begin to believe that someone might have wanted to hurt her was to get to Raven. And if they were brazen enough to enter that home during the evening hours when many people are still awake (and apparently Janet was too since she was fully dressed) and brutally murder her in a very hands-on sort of way, why didn't they also go after Kaiden? Wouldn't that have been a sure-fire way to get to Raven - to go after his child?

Unless it WAS a robbery but I just can't grasp the concept of a robbery - that a robber just happened to break in and steal a laptop and brutally murder Janet in the meantime. For a laptop? And one that was probably toted around with Raven most of the time? (Do we know if he would take his laptop with him when he went out?) How convenient that it happened to be at the house that night to be stolen.

One random thought that I wanted to mention again - if my spouse was brutally murdered in my home especially at a time when I might have been there on a regular night, I think that I would be paralyzed with fear - even if I moved to the other side of the country. Has Raven ever seemed paralyzed with fear? Refusing to go out of the house even to get a job or go to the dentist? Looking over his shoulder wherever he goes? Refusing to let Kaiden out of his sight for fear that this nameless, faceless murderer could have followed them back to Utah?

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Hey people,
Not much of a sleuth, but I do have some info that may help. I never met Raven in person but I conversed with him a few times via email after he left a business card on my motorcycle with his email address saying he had a ducati also and we should ride sometime. This was around April-June of 2004 when I was still living in carrboro. When emailed each other for a little bit, but stopped after a week or so, for no real reason. Both of us busy I guess. Then in Feb. of this year (2005) Raven posted a for sale ad for his Duc 748 in a forum I visit regularly. I recogized his name and emailed him. He informed me that he was layed-off and that was why he was selling the duc. Said he had a child now and seemed pretty up beat about life. He said we should go riding sometime and asked if I would look over his bike to make sure everything was good and ready to be sold. I said I would and to let me know when. Didn't hear from him again. Later I saw the story and picture of Janet on WRAL's site and thought her and the child looked familiar. I've been checking back on the story from time to time since then, which lead me here today. Anyway thats my history......

Do you mean that they looked familiar just from around the neighborhood? Since you never met Raven in person, I assume you never met his family in person either. Since none of the neighbors on Ferrand had ever seen them, I kind of got the impression that they didn't go out in the neighborhood much. At least you recognizing them might mean that they did enjoy outside walks and stuff together with Kaiden.

When talking with Raven around feb. of this year. He seemed the same attitude wise if not more upbeat (He's referring to Feb. 2005). Said he was in durham now and was looking to move to raleigh. Which I think was where his new job was. Seemed proud of his new child and family life in general.

I wonder if that could have been the mania. I can't imagine being more upbeat - he was in the beginning stages of the embezzlement fallout. Yet upbeat seems to be the recurring theme in jager's written recollections here about Raven.

...When talking with Raven b/w Apr-Jun of 04 IIRC he and Janet were living in the chapel hill/carrboro area, might have been in durham though. He played pickup soccer games at least once a week on the field at a school (name escapes me at the moment) in carrboro (the big field in the picture on s merritt mill rd.) I believe he said he usually played on sunday, but also played/practiced during the week sometimes. He also said he played in an adult league and usually had games in charlotte and other close cities on the weekends during soccer season...

Thats about all I can think of for now. All of the stuff above is all from memory since I deleted the emails pretty much after I read them.

Wow, that's an AMAZING memory ... you can remember all of that detail about Raven nearly a year after getting those e-mails! I honestly can't even remember what I talked about last week! :crazy:

Interesting site you guys have here. Has this site actually helped solve a crime before? There seem to be some great internet detectives and crime minds on here and some great information being shared. I would not be suprised if you guys have helped the LE on some cases before. If so great work.

Thanks for your interest ... we're trying!

And btw, I really enjoyed your insights and wish that you would have stuck around longer. The offer is always on the table to jump back in if you want.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

SES, you had asked jager about his impressions of Raven in person, not realizing that he had never met Raven in person. I found this part of his response interesting:

As a said before, I never met Raven in person. I really don't have too much to offer as a judge of his personality for a couple of reason. One all of our emails probably only add up to a couple of paragraphs...

What I find interesting about that is that apparently, in just those couple of paragraphs, Raven had told jager all kinds of stuff about himself and his soccer activities. How does one find an opening to talk about oneself that much in the space of just a couple of introductory paragraphs??? Some interesting personality traits at play there, IMO.

Two I'm not really analytical when it comes to people. And finally it’s hard to remember what my thoughts of him were almost a year ago ...

At least the soccer detail stood out in his memory. It did prove helpful in figuring out some stuff.

But here are my thoughts based on our correspondence, which mostly limited to motorcycles and soccer. Definitely outgoing, nice and likeable. He was a little materialistic, but really not much more than any other 25 year old male. We were a lot alike: ducatis, soccer, mountain biking, snowboarding, IT field, and the same age. He seemed to be an optimist, even more so the second time I talked to him, after he was “layed-off” as he told me (can’t blame him for lying I wouldn’t tell people either). Seemed intelligent and self motivated. Has read some of the same books I have on motorcycle riding techniques. I don’t recall him talking at Janet, he might have said something once or twice, but as I said are emails were mainly about motorcycles and some soccer stuff. I know I never said anything about my girlfriend. I’ll let you know if I remember anything better, or can dig up some old emails.

Very interesting.

 

[ewwwinteresting]

When was raven ever "layed off"???????? I guess being hauled off in handcuffs from your place of work is considered layed off:doh:

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Laid off is what Raven allegedly called it when communicating with Jager. In his post, Jager states that he doesn't blame Raven for lying about the actual circumstances of his departure from ES. I guess some people tolerate lying better than others.

 

[terminatrixator]

I've been very troubled lately that if the above is true, then perhaps the only reason that Kaiden was spared is because it would have been too obvious who the perp was if both of them were murdered that night. I don't know the family so I really have no idea one way or the other but the rumors have Raven as not being the most attentive father in the world. Rumor has it that Kaiden is more of a burden and gets pushed off on other people all of the time while Raven dates, bikes, etc. Like I said - I have no way of knowing for sure - Raven might be a great father and all of the above could just be talk to make him look bad. But going away biking on your son's first conscious Halloween after his mother was murdered and you were fortunate enough to be spared that child - it just seems to me that a mourning parent would pull that child as close as possible and never let go. Yet some do mourn differently.

I guess what I'm saying is that I hope that Kaiden at least has a good Daddy in you, Raven.

Then again, without Kaiden there would have been no Social Security to Kaiden and that's a meal ticket right there.

Also, there is the Widowers benefits, because he has to support Kaiden and therefore will be receiving widowers benefits only because we all know he's not a worker and since he doesn't work full-time or hasn't yet, he would be under the tax bracket and be allowed to collect widowers benefits.

I think he's allowed to make about 13,000 before a reduction in those benefits.

We all know that Raven should be able to make at least 30,000.00 to support himself and his child, even with all the FELONY CONVICTIONS, but that would mean he would have to work like a real man and he would lose Widowers benefits.
Can you say:loser:

Also, it's much harder to not screw up a crime scene on one murder as opposed to two. There would have been too many chances of slipping up, or maybe he does have a conscience, albiet VERY VERY VERY VERY SMALL.

Myself, I'm thinking he knew that Kaiden was his meal ticket and it was a decision based on $$$ as opposed to any real feelings for his child.

 

[LTUlegal]

(edit to delete something that could be far-reaching the distasteful)
It seems to me that in life, Janet was carrying Raven...and now in death she's carrying him, too. Yep, I agree, he's a :loser:

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I think he's allowed to make about 13,000 before a reduction in those benefits.

Ah, so maybe that's why he was only working part-time. And maybe that's why he was even more upbeat after he was laid off - he was just happy that he didn't have to get up and go to work anymore?

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

... or maybe he does have a conscience, albiet VERY VERY VERY VERY SMALL.

Myself, I'm thinking he knew that Kaiden was his meal ticket and it was a decision based on $$$ as opposed to any real feelings for his child.

As we all know, if he's a genuine sociopath, he has no real feelings for anyone. Except for himself, of course. And even those feelings are probably based more on self-preservation than anything else.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Do people really believe this stuff???

Home
[font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]Just last week, on 2 August 2004, AmeriPlan[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]®[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace] introduced a brand new benefits plan that was more than 5 years in the making. [/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]AmeriPlan Health[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]™ is a discount plan for doctors,
lab tests and hospitalization. [/font]

[font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]It’s only a week old, and already, the demand is greater
than the dental plan ever was. We anticipate AmeriPlanUSA[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]®[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]
sales will increase from $100 million to $300 million this year - simply because of the health plan. [/font]

[font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]As you can imagine, a 200 million dollar increase in sales is great news for us as Brokers [just think about all that commission]. [/font]

[font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]Obviously you know the income potential or you would never
have invested in an AmeriPlan[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]®[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace] business. [/font]

[font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]With that in mind, I’m inviting you look at your business from a whole new perspective... [/font]

[font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]Picture this. You’re positioned on the FRONT END [/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]of the “NEW” AmeriPlan[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]®[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]... and imagine the money that front end Brokers like us will be earning as you ride the tidal wave that [/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]AmeriPlan Health[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]™ is literally unleashing into the multi-billion dollar marketplace. [/font]

[font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]This is the Gold Rush and the Oil Boom of our modern times. This is opportunity knocking. You can choose to claim your
good fortune or not. That, is for you to decide...

Brokers on our team are FIRING their bosses, they’re leaving their full time jobs and they are making money...

Is it going to be EASY? Absolutely not.

However, if you see it, and if you want it, and if you
are willing to work for it, I-will-help-you-get-it...

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]P.S.[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace] If the timing just isn’t right for you to be one of the Brokers on the front end of the new AmeriPlan[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]®[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace], but you sure could use a big ole discount when you go to the doctors office... why not [/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]go to my website[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace], get the details and upgrade your membership to include the new Health Plan? ...[/font]

[font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]The REGULAR PRICE is $59.95 per month for a household
membership, [/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]but for YOU as an AmeriPlan[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]®[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace] Broker...[/font]

[font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]YOUR SPECIAL PRICE is just $40.00 per month! [/font]

[font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]For only $40.00 - you’re going to save a ton of money when you use the plan... [/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace]And I didn’t even tell you about the medical Master Card that you’ll receive[/font][font=Courier New,Lucida Console,Courier,Monaco,Monospace,monospace] so you can go to the doctor, get a big ole discount and pay for it on credit![/font]

http://64.233.179.104/search...

Ameriplan Health is NOT insurance - it is a discounted fee for service just like the dental plan. -- The discounts range from 50% to 80% -- Additionally, with the Health plan, you will be issued a medical master card. The cost will be $49.95 a month for an individual or $59.95 a month for a household, anyone living at one address, related or not.

:doh: :doh: :doh:
[/font][/font]

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Raven and the family members left Buena Vista after the funeral to travel to the burial site. So he would have only been in Buena Vista for the day before and the day of the funeral.

Hmmmm, this keeps eating away at me.

So then there was one day between the funeral and the memorial service. And on that day, Raven was NOT at the guest house at SVU. And from what I understand, Karyn and Jim were driving Janet's car and Raven was driving the VX. (Convenient that those cars weren't in the possession of LE at the time - good thing that they weren't at the scene the night of the murder or what would they have driven? And would Raven and his parents have had to share ONE rental car rather than Raven having the opportunity to drive around Virginia on his own had those vehicles been impounded?) So did Raven have Kaiden with him or was Kaiden with someone else during that time? Especially the day in between the funeral and the memorial? A day would surely have been enough time to visit Smith Mountain Lake.

 

[juliagoulia]

A day would surely have been enough time to visit Smith Mountain Lake.

Especially since SML is only about an hour away (65 miles) from Buena Vista.