General Discussion and Theories #3

[matou]

Here is an example of a search warrant (an American one). It starts on page 4. It details specific items to search for and places to search. I'm not sure if Canadian ones are similar but I would suspect yes.

http://media.star-telegram.com/smedia/2013/08/13/21/57/aO2iw.So.58.pdf

 

[SnooperDuper]

IT is conceivable that there was and is nothing to find in the barn. TB's body, based on the location of LE tents, was not found near it.

It's possible that LB met the same fate as TB, in the same manner, and there is no trace left. For instance perhaps the incinerator was first used for LB and never emptied, then used for TB. In that case LB's remains would have been incinerated twice and there would be little chance of any trace of evidence remaining - and the act would not have involved the barn.

It could be the barn has nothing to do with TB and LB.

 

[swanna]

I think it is a little odd that LE either didn't see 54 barrels in May, or that at least one of them didn't have the same suspicion many here instantly jumped to:great place to hide another body or evidence. Once they found TB at the farm they didn't just pack up and leave, saying, 'Well, the warrant was only to search for a body, we can't get out our microscopes yet.' In my opinion they would have likely had permission in that warrant to continue looking for say, blood splatter or a murder weapon, or further victims. Which would make me wonder why they didn't look under they hay or in the barrels the first time.

If, as some suggest, they were waiting for lab results for further warrants to continue their search of the barn, I believe that they would have put up at least some crime scene tape warning the public not to cross it. Wouldn't that be cheaper and easier than hidden cameras? I would think hidden cameras would only be used if LE strongly suspected the third suspect would return after they were gone, to tamper with evidence. But I think that even in that situation that they would have put up some tape, so that they could prove that it was in fact still a crime scene that was being tampered with.

In May, the crime had just occurred and evidence would have been fresh. A look around in the barn would be enough to notice if there had been recent activity in the barn - tracks in the dust, places with no dust that looked like something that had been there had been moved, items with no dust among dust covered items indicating they were recent additions to the barn, and many other indicators for recent activity or movement in the barn. In LEs defense, they were on the farm investigating a crime that had only just occurred and therefore, perhaps lack of evidence of recent activity inside the barn precluded it from more in depth investigation - IMHO

I understand what both of you are saying and it puzzles me as well. I know they were initially only looking for TB but after he was arrested and before MS was arrested were Toronto LE and other LE not back at the farm searching and digging in hopes of finding something in regards to LB.

I just find it odd as the current trial I am watching where they found the body across the road and not on the family property. AS she was killed in another state and dumped here. They still thoroughly searched all the outbuildings, property and home taking samples.

Just my :twocents: for what it is worth and I realize they are supposedly back now due more information or a tip but it still puzzles me as well. :moo:

 

[swanna]

Wouldn't it follow then that if they discovered something in the barn or saw something suspicious that they would have filed for a warrant to search the barn in May?

Of course, I am talking about in relation to TBs case. They are now investigating LBs case which was not part of the investigation of the farm in May.

I just found the link when Toronto LE were back at the farm re: LB.

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/police-back-on-scene-at-millard-farm-in-north-dumfries-1.1300149

It looks like they were there May 28th regarding LB. I guess the warrant they had this time only included the property not the barn?? :moo:

 

[Arnie M]

Too many folks getting worked up about the latest barn search
Remember back in May LE were looking for TB and they found him (outside the barn)

To fault LE for not spending all of May in the barn is foolish .... TB was not there !!!! Of course they took a careful look in the barn in May ... but they were not looking for a missing person from a year ago (LB) ... now they are ... and they have reasons to think the barn holds evidence.

Going by some posters here , it is almost like they think LE should have been spending the first month searching for TB in old barrels in the barn , instead of outdoor burn areas and incinerators.

LE are not the incompetent idiots portrayed by some folks.

Regards
AM

 

[cansleuther]

Remember back in May LE were looking for TB and they found him (outside the barn)

To fault LE for not spending all of May in the barn is foolish .... TB was not there !!!! Of course they took a careful look in the barn in May ... but they were not looking for a missing person from a year ago (LB) ... now they are ... and they have reasons to think the barn holds evidence.

TPS actually did search the farm in connection to LB's disappearance on May 28. This is the search most posters are referring to in regards to being surprised the barn was not investigated. The current search is the third time LE has been at the farm.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/05/28/tim_bosma_toronto_police_homicide_unit_execute_search_warrant_at_suspect_dellen_millards_farm.html

 

[Blomquist]

Here is an example of a search warrant (an American one). It starts on page 4. It details specific items to search for and places to search. I'm not sure if Canadian ones are similar but I would suspect yes.

http://media.star-telegram.com/smedia/2013/08/13/21/57/aO2iw.So.58.pdf

Thank you for your link... Not all warrants specify outbuildings here in Canada. Usually the description of the property would be the address ie./

1234 Roseville Rd , Timbuktu. This would mean all of that property within the perimeter of the property...excluding something that may have a jurisdiction of its own imo ie./ car, data within a computer. (and as I mentioned before...LE often search such even without a warrant and claim they didn't- as neighbours will often testify to, in my opinion.)

So I also find it odd that the first search was not thorough.

Also that they have returned 3 ? times now. If looking for a deceased, one would assume that anything pertaining to death, murder and a dead body would be searched for at the first attempt. I thought 54 drums of fluid would have at least been tested for a concealed body or weapon if murder was the order of the day..JMO

Now of course with so much evidence that the place had been left wide open to 'anyone' ... it becomes a muddy water type situation...as should anything be found the question(s) could and should be asked as to when and who could have put them there....and why??

JMO..... but its a strange case I agree...

 

[Blomquist]

It's thought by some people that there might have been an OC connection to this case. Recent speculation is that someone is talking and not just about the murder of TB but other aspects as well.

I've been following the news and have noted several big drug busts in recent months, to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. This morning I read this: CBC News Alerts ‏@CBCAlerts 16m
Spanish police arrest 4 Hells Angels from Canada in cocaine bust. Allegedly tried to smuggle 500 kg of cocaine into country. #RCMP involved.

To those of you who are leaning towards an OC involvement, are you thinking Hells Angels or some other OC group?

Hypothetically speaking...what if someone were to tell you that a HA was an informant to LE.... how would that affect your thinking insofar as OC was concerned ? Who would you think could be involved and at what level?
Do you think that whoever was involved might try to change the way people think by rebutting such opinion in regard to such deep level OC?....

I am just wondering how someone would interpret such info...

 

[swanna]

Too many folks getting worked up about the latest barn search
Remember back in May LE were looking for TB and they found him (outside the barn)

To fault LE for not spending all of May in the barn is foolish .... TB was not there !!!! Of course they took a careful look in the barn in May ... but they were not looking for a missing person from a year ago (LB) ... now they are ... and they have reasons to think the barn holds evidence.

Going by some posters here , it is almost like they think LE should have been spending the first month searching for TB in old barrels in the barn , instead of outdoor burn areas and incinerators.

LE are not the incompetent idiots portrayed by some folks.


Regards
AM

Here is the WS link of when there was discussion regarding the search for LB only.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210654"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210654[/ame]


I not sure if people are saying they were incompetent but I know I wasn't, I was just questioning why not a more thorough search on May 28th by Toronto LE when they were back at the farm. :moo:

 

[stormy67]

I agree with Arnie M that I don't think LE are incompetent as some people seem to believe. They know a lot more than we do - we can't judge their actions unless we have all the information and I am not sure we will ever be privy to everything that has been directing them in this investigation. That suspects were located and apprehended so quickly and that TB was found under the circumstances tells me that LE has some idea about what they are doing.

 

[Blomquist]

Blomquist, IMO, there could be ways to immobilize or subdue a person quickly regardless of how fit they were. Strangling, knife, chloroform, shooting (with or without a silencer) IMO, when I think about stabbing or strangling, it may actually be easier to immobilize a fit, trim person by these methods because they don't have as much adipose tissue. JMHO

Yes I agree....many ways... Even a home made taser could do the trick. So thats why as Juballee says the RBEG theory goes out of the window. Which brings me to another theory.... gosh I hate it when that happens.... the brain is forever on mystery alert haha.... gonna think on this for a minute...

But I think however TB arrived at his final end, the same could have occurred for RBEG if murder was on the agenda...which I do not think it was.... jmo. In fact a large guy trapped inside a car would have been easier to subdue if you consider locking him inside the truck with the guy in the back tazering non stop to the neck.... which imo would be the most vulnerable place to attack, supposing the attack was from behind... imo

 

[dizzy1]

Thank you for your link... Not all warrants specify outbuildings here in Canada. Usually the description of the property would be the address ie./

1234 Roseville Rd , Timbuktu. This would mean all of that property within the perimeter of the property...excluding something that may have a jurisdiction of its own imo ie./ car, data within a computer. (and as I mentioned before...LE often search such even without a warrant and claim they didn't- as neighbours will often testify to, in my opinion.)

So I also find it odd that the first search was not thorough.

<snip>
JMO, but perhaps LE was trying to avoid having evidence thrown out, such as in the TS case, where evidence from MR's computer was deemed a violation of the accused rights. I personally am glad LE seems to be moving forward with extreme caution, leaving no stone unturned.

In a decision released Jan. 31, the judge ruled the jurors would never hear that forensic examination of Mr. Rafferty’s laptop revealed that in the months leading up to the eight-year-old’s slaying, he had done Google searches for “underage rape,” “real underage rape” and “best program to download child *advertiser censored*,” or that he had recently possessed substantial amounts of child *advertiser censored*, including videos depicting “how-to instructions for child sexual assault” and others with what prosecutors called “a disturbing instructional purpose” and even several “snuff” films.

Stripped to the core, the judge said that though the police had acted legally in getting search warrants for Mr. Rafferty’s home and car, and though they honestly believed that was sufficient to allow for a forensic examination of the hard drive, BlackBerry and laptop found therein, and though the law on such searches was then evolving, the police should have anticipated how it might change and sought another warrant to look at the devices.

As a “remedy” for what he called their carelessness, he deemed the search a violation of Mr. Rafferty’s Charter-guaranteed right against unreasonable search and seizure and threw the evidence out.

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/fu...05/10/tori-stafford-michael-rafferty-evidence
JMO

 

[Arnie M]

TPS actually did search the farm in connection to LB's disappearance on May 28. This is the search most posters are referring to in regards to being surprised the barn was not investigated. The current search is the third time LE has been at the farm.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/05/28/tim_bosma_toronto_police_homicide_unit_execute_search_warrant_at_suspect_dellen_millards_farm.html

(article quote) .... Tim Bosma murder case: Toronto homicide unit searches suspect Dellen Millard’s farm
Police continue death investigation of Millard’s father and missing person’s case of Laura Babcock as they search property belonging to man accused in Bosma's death.

Granted .... but if that is how we read it , then we must also say they were looking for WM . (thank you)

It's just semantics and wording and interpretation of course ..... but today (Sept) they are searching for something specific to LB based on new info .... for all we know somebody (tipster) told LE to search for something not previously considered in previous searches.

Anyway , my point is we should not be ridiculing LE for not spending the first month looking in old barrels. My bet is all those containers will not produce any contents that are helpful in the investigation ... bits of evidence exterior of the containers .... yes of course .... always a possibility.

However that is not the function of the hazmat team , they are determining hazardous contents for safety reasons , not for evidence reasons ..... barring the remote possibility of finding a container of acid bath.

Thanks
AM

ps: I dont want to belabor the barrel contents issue ..... but large aviation shops routinely have barrels of industrial paint strippers , etching acids to prepare aluminum aircraft for painting , toxic and acidic vinyl wash primers , toxic icocyanate based aircraft paints , industrial strength thinners and reducers etc ..... I am sure many of those barrels have such labels. (thus the caution and the involvement of hazmat.)

Whew !!! (almost done) .... now if anyone wants to know about helicopter pilots , paint strippers , and how it all relates to the invention of mosquito repellant .... you have to specifically ask me , and with moderator approval I will post it .... a bit of off topic interesting info. Make 'ya smile

Helicopter pilots have the best seat in the house and are renowned for only telling true stories !!!!! Just ask one !!!!

 

[MsSherlock]

If everyone is equally as easy to subdue regardless of how fit they are, then the theory that RBEG was too big to be victimized goes out the window.

Juballee, if you read my post to the end you'll see I was saying that a fit person may be easier to subdue in some situations because of "lack" of excess adipose tissue. For example, strangling someone from behind with a rope may be easier on someone with a 17 1/2 inch neck rather than someone with a 24" neck. Stabbing someone with the hopes of hitting a major artery may be easier if there isn't a lot of adipose tissue to stab thru. JMHO.

 

[MsSherlock]

Yes I agree....many ways... Even a home made taser could do the trick. So thats why as Juballee says the RBEG theory goes out of the window. Which brings me to another theory.... gosh I hate it when that happens.... the brain is forever on mystery alert haha.... gonna think on this for a minute...

But I think however TB arrived at his final end, the same could have occurred for RBEG if murder was on the agenda...which I do not think it was.... jmo. In fact a large guy trapped inside a car would have been easier to subdue if you consider locking him inside the truck with the guy in the back tazering non stop to the neck.... which imo would be the most vulnerable place to attack, supposing the attack was from behind... imo

IMO Blomquist, how TB died or was subdued is all speculation at this point. LE has not provided us with a cause of death. IMO, if this whole thing was premeditated, the perps would have had a method they felt comfortable with and perhaps RBEG was going to be harder to subdue with their chosen method. The facts that we do have is that TB was killed somehow and MSM stated that a "source" said that TB was killed in his truck following a struggle. MOO
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2..._man_was_killed_inside_truck_source_says.html

 

[SnooperDuper]

Yes I agree....many ways... Even a home made taser could do the trick. So thats why as Juballee says the RBEG theory goes out of the window. Which brings me to another theory.... gosh I hate it when that happens.... the brain is forever on mystery alert haha.... gonna think on this for a minute...

But I think however TB arrived at his final end, the same could have occurred for RBEG if murder was on the agenda...which I do not think it was.... jmo. In fact a large guy trapped inside a car would have been easier to subdue if you consider locking him inside the truck with the guy in the back tazering non stop to the neck.... which imo would be the most vulnerable place to attack, supposing the attack was from behind... imo

While ordinary citizens in the US can buy tasers, in Canada they are a highly restricted weapon...I get the sense that they are really not that common (except for LE)

As for a homemade taster, really, would you trust a disposable camera to take down a guy reliably? From what I've read, they don't have that much juice in them.

I suspect whatever weapon was used just wasn't that exotic

 

[swedie]

Here is the WS link of when there was discussion regarding the search for LB only.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210654


I not sure if people are saying they were incompetent but I know I wasn't, I was just questioning why not a more thorough search on May 28th by Toronto LE when they were back at the farm. :moo:

Swanna I hope I can shed light on your question. Again to assume they missed the barn or where not thorough is presumptuous IMHO. It could be they saw the drums and whatever else they collected this past week but because items were not obvious evidence such as, a drill press with blood on it or blood soaked boards, a puddle of blood on the floor they believed it was irrelevant to the case at that point in their investigation. The items taken this past week didn't fall into the sequence of the investigation three months ago, these things were irrelevant until other evidence was tested. One example I suggested; there was still a body of sorts remaining of TB. Now results have come back conclusive an accelerant was used in the incinerator and not propane as one would expect. Now LE have gone back to do actual testing of what is in those drums suspecting the contents of them could be what was used in the incinerator. Again, just an example.

It all makes sense to me. Why bother unnecessarily testing things if it is not related to the crime. It's like putting the cart before the horse so to speak. As you can very well see the manpower and high tech vehicles which were on the scene this week, is not something to be taken lightly. It's all about strategy, just like an interrogator would use. They cannot jump into an interrogation blindly and say whatever they want to say or ask as it could jeopardize the case.

What I am hearing in the MSM and not from LE is; LE are back on Dellen's property now searching the barn therefore people are assuming it was overlooked because the main focus was on the area, back by and in the bush where the incinerator and more than likely TB's body was found. I do not believe LE has come forward to state, "we missed searching for evidence in the barn. How could they have missed the barn?! I stands out like a sore thumb, very sore at that lol. Out of what, 150 officers on the scene four months ago and not one of them thought to check the barn?! One condition could be also, is possibly they didn't have a warrant to check the barn, found all they needed to find back in the bush and that was there main focus at that time. Maybe the warrant only allowed them to look through the barn but did not allow them to retrieve items from it.

It really never came to light about LB's disappearance and her connection with DM until a day or so after DM's arrest. I would like to give more credit to LE and know they are doing the best investigation they can as things fall into place and unravel. JMHO and HTH.

 

[Blomquist]

While ordinary citizens in the US can buy tasers, in Canada they are a highly restricted weapon...I get the sense that they are really not that common (except for LE)

As for a homemade taster, really, would you trust a disposable camera to take down a guy reliably? From what I've read, they don't have that much juice in them.

I suspect whatever weapon was used just wasn't that exotic

Do you think if people can get guns they can't get tasers??? Believe me... everything is available if you either know where to look or its given to you for work purposes. What about Army/Military guys, mercenaries and the like.....they all live in civilization as we know it...

With respect.. its rather naive to assume that people cannot get tasers etc.... and as yet the actual killer could be well trained and living in Ontario right now waiting for his next job....or planning his next move... Anything is possible as they say... (whoever they are ;p )

 

[cansleuther]

Regardless of what those on WS think of TPS and their investigation into LB's disappearance, our only knowledge comes from what is being reported in MSM.

SL has had to deal with them directly for over a year now and not only commented on their "utterly incompetent bureaucracy" after the first search, but also plans to file a formal complaint against them in the future, according to his statement on the "Help Us Find Laura" FB page.

 

[Snoofo]

It's thought by some people that there might have been an OC connection to this case. Recent speculation is that someone is talking and not just about the murder of TB but other aspects as well.

I've been following the news and have noted several big drug busts in recent months, to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. This morning I read this: CBC News Alerts &#8207;@CBCAlerts 16m
Spanish police arrest 4 Hells Angels from Canada in cocaine bust. Allegedly tried to smuggle 500 kg of cocaine into country. #RCMP involved.

To those of you who are leaning towards an OC involvement, are you thinking Hells Angels or some other OC group?

I, for one, lean toward an OC connection, however I don't know enough about OC to specify which group would be involved. My feeling is that it wasnt limited to a local operation if drug-related. Local if car-related. Jmo!