General Discussion and Theories #3

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I just have a sinking feeling that this is going to be tied to the Rob Ford case very soon. Maybe even Friday morning. Both Ford and Millard live in Etobicoke and are tied to the drug trade. Perhaps Tim witnessed something that Ford did not want anyone to know about? Theories allowed in this area correct? Its my first post so forgive me if I get it wrong.
 
Another case, Regina v Harbottle, where Harbottle's appeal of his 1st degree murder conviction was dismissed by the Supreme Court; relevant discussion WRT "Subtantial Cause Test" <scroll down to near bottom of page>:

from:
http://scc-csc.lexum.com/decisia-scc-csc/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1050/index.do


Therefore, an accused may be found guilty of first degree murder pursuant to s. 214(5) if the Crown has established beyond a reasonable doubt that:

(1) the accused was guilty of the underlying crime of domination or of attempting to commit that crime;

(2) the accused was guilty of the murder of the victim;

(3) the accused participated in the murder in such a manner that he was a substantial cause of the death of the victim;

(4) there was no intervening act of another which resulted in the accused no longer being substantially connected to the death of the victim; and



(5) the crimes of domination and murder were part of the same transaction; that is to say, the death was caused while committing the offence of domination as part of the same series of events.
<bbm>

From that same article:

First degree murder is an aggravated form of murder and not a distinct substantive offence. Section 214(5) is a sentencing provision to be considered after the jury has found the accused guilty of murder.

IOW, if the accused is found guilty of murdering the victim or was party to such, that could constitute less than 1st degree murder, but then IF it is subsequently determined by the jury that the murder occurred during the domination/confinement, such verdict then bumps up to qualify as guilty of 1st degree.
 
I just have a sinking feeling that this is going to be tied to the Rob Ford case very soon. Maybe even Friday morning. Both Ford and Millard live in Etobicoke and are tied to the drug trade. Perhaps Tim witnessed something that Ford did not want anyone to know about? Theories allowed in this area correct? Its my first post so forgive me if I get it wrong.

Hi flatbed and Welcome to WS !!! :)

We do have a separate thread for alternate theories, so if you have some specifics that might substantiate your theory, that would be the place to do it. I can't quite recall if Mods shut down a prior discussion in that regard. (If so, we'll find out soon ;))

LE stated very early on that there was absolutely no connection between Tim and DM/MS. With DM and ROFO being in Etobicoke and Tim from Ancaster/Hamilton area, not sure how Tim might have witnessed something related to the Toronto area drug scene. FWIW, between sleuthing on DM et al and lurking on the ROFO discussion over at the urbantoronto site, I've been keeping my eyes peeled and so far haven't run across names that would appear to connect Millard or his buds to the Fords. But ... never say never, eh?

ETA: Link to Alternate Theories thread:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209843"]Dellen Millard: Innocent Dupe? Alternative Theories - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 
just wanted to welcome you to WS flatbed...and your thoughts on Rob Ford being connected to the tim bosma case ....IMO I find hard to comprehend...this case has had so many twist and turns...IMO anything is possible...personal I find this hard to comprehend..I believe personally I feel ' it is what it appears to be'...TB Truck was" TARGETED "..it was obviously they wanted that " RAM diesel TRUCK" they made a visit and called others....JMO this is darn scary as it could have been ANYONE of us on Kijji placing an ad...and becoming a victim....again just my personal thoughts

.....unless while in court we FINALLY hear DM & MS "defense story "....as DM lawyer said" there is more to this story"....and AS you all KNOW this has me very curious...thanks for reading...robynhood...a HUGE PUZZLe to us all...so Strange ....??????....IMO ...DM has been involved in more than meets the eye stuff..like chop shop , drugs , all kinds of pornographic picture taking...seen on the net ....etc....IMO there is EXACTLY THAT,,,MUCH more to this story....and I think I posted in wrong section ..oops ...started off with a welcome to new member ...flatbed....sorry ....robynhood
 
If one "unjustly" or "unlawfully" holds someone against their will by using force, the exhibition of force, threats or duress they are in contravention of the law.

If the theft of a wine glass by a neighbor, while on the neighbor's property causes duress such that one cannot leave without it, a contravention has occurred.

The wine glass ex. would be an extreme case and a Court would likely see it as such.

I would guess that most confinement case convictions here(Canada) are less than 20% for many reasons that have nothing to do with actual guilt.

Hard to get convictions on husband/wife, boyfriend/girlfriend and that's where most cases seem to come from.
 
If one "unjustly" or "unlawfully" holds someone against their will by using force, the exhibition of force, threats or duress they are in contravention of the law.

If the theft of a wine glass by a neighbor, while on the neighbor's property causes duress such that one cannot leave without it, a contravention has occurred.

The wine glass ex. would be an extreme case and a Court would likely see it as such.

I would guess that most confinement case convictions here(Canada) are less than 20% for many reasons that have nothing to do with actual guilt.

Hard to get convictions on husband/wife, boyfriend/girlfriend and that's where most cases seem to come from.


I believe that this means that if the thieves stopped the truck and told TB to leave or be killed, and he chose to stay because the duress of possibly losing his truck was somehow more motivating to him than the idea of losing his life, than that would be confinement? Personally, I believe the same as many here have voiced, that in my opinion, Tim would not have chosen his truck over his life if given the choice.

I believe the way that the conditions above would be interpreted would be only if the force or duress was used to confine him, as in, they held a gun on him and told him to stay. I don't think, as the original scenario here was, that if they held a gun on him and told him to leave that it would be confinement, I don't think it can be both at the same time. What I mean is, I don't think that 'don't leave or I'll shoot' and 'leave or I'll shoot' are the same thing, and I don't think that both constitute being forcibly confined, when they are complete opposites.

I think it must be a slippery slope to prove confinement, if there really is only a 20% conviction rate on that charge, and until we know more about the actual events on this case, any guesses are just that, guesses.
 
I believe that this means that if the thieves stopped the truck and told TB to leave or be killed, and he chose to stay because the duress of possibly losing his truck was somehow more motivating to him than the idea of losing his life, than that would be confinement?
<rsbm>

From the Regina v Pritchard case (confinement, robbery, murder):

http://scc-csc.lexum.com/decisia-scc-csc/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/2532/index.do

To find the accused guilty of first degree murder, the jury had to find that S&#8217;s death was part of a continuing series of events constituting a single transaction that establishes both her death and the distinct offence of unlawful confinement. The required temporal&#8209;causal connection is established if the unlawful confinement creates the continuing illegal domination of the victim that provides the accused with a position of power which he or she exploits in order to murder the victim.

Duress is duress ... regardless of his motivation or thought process, whatever duress Tim was experiencing was a direct result of the continuing series of events that were transpiring through absolutely no fault of his own.
 
rsbm and bbm

I think it must be a slippery slope to prove confinement, if there really is only a 20% conviction rate on that charge, and until we know more about the actual events on this case, any guesses are just that, guesses.

My experience is that LE apply it in error and/or as I stated, it's a spousal/relationship event and convictions are almost non existent at that point in the circle of abuse.

So IME, in everyday run of the mill confinement case the LE make an error in charges and/or the victim recants during the honeymoon stage of the relationship.

Neither of which would apply in TB case.
 
SB what I mean is if any of the charges are going to stick and DM is guilty of it, I would rather it be the first degree murder as it does carry the longest prison term and is the most serious of charges against DM. HTH.

It is MOO DM and MS went to Tim's house with the intention of stealing his truck. If this is fact, by including Tim in their plan without his knowledge of the theft is forcible confinement and/or kidnapping. They deliberately took him knowing they lied to Tim about purchasing his truck. What I believe will be telling is the information of blood found in his vehicle which obviously shows the perps tenacious desire to retain Tim's truck and they were prepared via (IMO) a weapon. It's based on pretense of the perps. Wouldn't that be something if TB had recorded with his cell phone what transpired in his truck without the perps knowledge?! The fact one of them threw Tim's phone away goes to show how "dumb" they were. Yes I do believe it was thrown away for fear it may have been tracked/traced. And it would have been around the time SB was placing worried calls to Tim. I also believe Tim was not given any choices, warnings, nothing. All MOO. Just some info below regarding vehicle theft, kidnapping and charges.

Police say 29-year-old James Robert Montgomery of Tustin, Calif., is jailed on felony murder, kidnapping, auto theft and other charges.

http://www.mynews3.com/mostpopular/story/carjacking-strip-las-vegas-cruz/_EK9KOcVfkmjc-xajxwJ4g.cspx

Carjacking is the unlawful seizure of an automobile. It is also armed assault when the vehicle is occupied. Historically, such as in the rash of semi-trailer truck hijackings during the 1960s, the general term hijacking was used for that type of vehicle abduction, which did not often include kidnapping of the driver, and concentrated on the theft of the load, rather than the vehicle itself. During the later-day car- theft crime[clarification needed], typically, the carjacker is armed, and the driver is forced out of the car with the threat of bodily injury. In other rarer cases, the driver is kidnapped under the assault by a weapon and is retained as a passenger under duress, or made to drive his or her abductor.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carjacking"]Carjacking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Channon Gail Christian, 21, and Hugh Christopher Newsom, Jr., 23, were a couple from Knoxville, Tennessee. They were raped, tortured, and murdered after being kidnapped the evening of January 6, 2007 when Christian's vehicle had been carjacked.[1][2] Five people were arrested and charged in the case. The grand jury indicted four of the suspects on counts of capital murder, robbery, kidnapping, rape, and theft, while a fifth was indicted at the federal level.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom"]Murders of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
It appears as though MS is only being charged with first degree murder, and not theft or forcible confinement.





http://metronews.ca/news/hamilton/685845/the-tim-bosma-case-in-focus/

Seems pretty telling doesn't it...

Keep in mind, new charges can be added as the investigation progresses. We may not be privy until preliminary hearing or trial if additional charges are applied. What makes me believe DM carries these additional charges is because Tim was murdered by DM, in his truck while MS was in the Yukon. This is why the forcible confinement charge also applies to just DM, MS wasn't in TB's truck during the abduction and death. MS was only there after the TB's death and helped to get rid of evidence. Maybe MS had no knowledge of TB's murder until they arrived at a certain destination. But the fact he did not go to LE knowing a murder had taken place, makes him guilty. All MOO.
 
<rsbm>

From the Regina v Pritchard case (confinement, robbery, murder):

http://scc-csc.lexum.com/decisia-scc-csc/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/2532/index.do



Duress is duress ... regardless of his motivation or thought process, whatever duress Tim was experiencing was a direct result of the continuing series of events that were transpiring through absolutely no fault of his own.

Duress is relative. As in my example above, having a gun pointed at you and being told to leave is different duress than having a gun pointed at you and being told to stay. Each could be considered duress, but duress motivating the victim to stay confined is not the same as duress motivating the victim to be free of confinement. Motivation would be a huge factor in what constitutes duress, in my opinion, and whether or not that duress constituted forcible confinement. We have no idea what transpired, so we can't really say what the events were or what order they occurred in, if they were in a series, or what was intended. As far as I know, no one is saying it is TB's fault, just putting forth different ideas about what some guess may have happened and how the law would come into play with those different scenarios.
 
Duress is relative. As in my example above, having a gun pointed at you and being told to leave is different duress than having a gun pointed at you and being told to stay. Each could be considered duress, but duress motivating the victim to stay confined is not the same as duress motivating the victim to be free of confinement. Motivation would be a huge factor in what constitutes duress, in my opinion, and whether or not that duress constituted forcible confinement. We have no idea what transpired, so we can't really say what the events were or what order they occurred in, if they were in a series, or what was intended. As far as I know, no one is saying it is TB's fault, just putting forth different ideas about what some guess may have happened and how the law would come into play with those different scenarios.

I simply have a different opinion. If having a gun pointed at you and being told to leave ("continuing illegal domination" as set out in the precedent provided), and you are killed because you didn't leave when the criminals told you, I truly don't think it matters what Tim's state of mind was at that moment. It seems he was killed regardless of whether he was told to stay or leave.

Public opinions aside, the legal precedent provided is a pretty fair example of how the law would come into play. I haven't seen one, but perhaps you could find another legal precedent wherein a victim experiencing duress as a result of their situation might somehow lessen culpability for the alleged perps. Until such time, I'll side with a legal precedent by the Supreme Court of Canada.

ETA: I would be interested in knowing why you think there was not a "continuing series of events constituting a single transaction" in this case.
 
It appears as though MS is only being charged with first degree murder, and not theft or forcible confinement.





http://metronews.ca/news/hamilton/685845/the-tim-bosma-case-in-focus/

I thought discussion here on WS around the time of that article was that DM's original charge of forcible confinement was not dropped in the event he didn't get convicted for the murder charge.

When MS was arrested they may not have had positive i.d. for him arriving at the house and leaving with TB (remember he seemed to take care to hide his identity) in order to charge him with f.c. but they may have had some fingerprint or other evidence to show he was in that truck.
 
I simply have a different opinion. If having a gun pointed at you and being told to leave ("continuing illegal domination" as set out in the precedent provided), and you are killed because you didn't leave when the criminals told you, I truly don't think it matters what Tim's state of mind was at that moment. It seems he was killed regardless of whether he was told to stay or leave.

Public opinions aside, the legal precedent provided is a pretty fair example of how the law would come into play. I haven't seen one, but perhaps you could find another legal precedent wherein a victim experiencing duress as a result of their situation might somehow lessen culpability for the alleged perps. Until such time, I'll side with a legal precedent by the Supreme Court of Canada.

ETA: I would be interested in knowing why you think there was not a "continuing series of events constituting a single transaction" in this case.

In your link above regarding the Candace Derksen murder, the accused was acquitted on first degree, but convicted on second degree. I would have thought that was a clear case of the confinement being a part of the same series of events. Going by the judges list of questions, I can only think then that the jury must have considered the confinement was distinct and independent from the killing because he left her tied up to freeze to death rather than killing her. They possibly didn't get to the last question.

I also see that his guilty verdict has been overturned and he has been granted a new trial.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/New-trial-ordered-in-Candace-Derksen-killing-229897421.html

JMO
 
I thought discussion here on WS around the time of that article was that DM's original charge of forcible confinement was not dropped in the event he didn't get convicted for the murder charge.

When MS was arrested they may not have had positive i.d. for him arriving at the house and leaving with TB (remember he seemed to take care to hide his identity) in order to charge him with f.c. but they may have had some fingerprint or other evidence to show he was in that truck.

When DM was arrested, they didn't have the truck or a body yet. I think he was charged with unlawful confinement because, as Kavanagh said, he entered the vehicle of his own free will but wasn't allowed to leave, since he hadn't returned home and hadn't been found. For that same reason, the charge remains and the 1st degree is added (rather than 2nd degree).

But I am curious why MS doesn't have the same unlawful confinement charge (unless we just don't know about it). If he was there for the confinement, he would get the automatic 1st degree charge as well, but shouldn't he also have both charges? Do they have enough on him to have the 1st degree stick, that they don't need the confinement charge? Was the planning and deliberate maybe on his part?

JMO
 
In your link above regarding the Candace Derksen murder, the accused was acquitted on first degree, but convicted on second degree. I would have thought that was a clear case of the confinement being a part of the same series of events. Going by the judges list of questions, I can only think then that the jury must have considered the confinement was distinct and independent from the killing because he left her tied up to freeze to death rather than killing her. They possibly didn't get to the last question.

I also see that his guilty verdict has been overturned and he has been granted a new trial.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/New-trial-ordered-in-Candace-Derksen-killing-229897421.html

JMO

Correct.

I posted the excerpt of instructions the judge gave to the jury wrt how to arrive at a decision regarding the forcible confinement component. Obviously the jury, for whatever reason, did not find the accused met the criterion set out in those instructions, and therefore he was found guilty of 2nd degree rather than 1st degree.
 
In your link above regarding the Candace Derksen murder, the accused was acquitted on first degree, but convicted on second degree. I would have thought that was a clear case of the confinement being a part of the same series of events. Going by the judges list of questions, I can only think then that the jury must have considered the confinement was distinct and independent from the killing because he left her tied up to freeze to death rather than killing her. They possibly didn't get to the last question.

I also see that his guilty verdict has been overturned and he has been granted a new trial.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/New-trial-ordered-in-Candace-Derksen-killing-229897421.html

JMO

The judge gave an excellent instruction to the jury.

But there is more to this case than first or second degree murder , he has schizophrenia plus lots of other unbalanced mental issues .... he is one bad dude . Hates girls and women. I dont think he will ever be set free again .... dangerous offender laws should apply to him. This re-trial is mostly a technical glitch , he is guilty and will be found guilty again.

I was in Winnipeg at the time 13 year old Candace Derksen went missing .There was a huge volunteer search force , I was in a single engine helicopter and was not rated to fly low over the city , so we did some cursory searching in the outskirts and industrial areas .... which turns out to be where she was

.... but Candace was tied up and hidden in an old building and froze to death . She was not discovered until 6 weeks later when an employee went searching for tools in the shed and found her.

Did I mention he is a bad dude ??? Pure evil is more like it !!!!!!!
He didn't get arrested till 20+ years later (DNA)

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/br...has-long-history-of-sex-crimes-116421004.html
http://www.winnipegfirst.ca/article/2007/05/16/derksen_suspect_career_sex_offender
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Not-guilty-verdict-in-Derksen-case-116514733.html
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2011/01/22/16990481.html
 
When DM was arrested, they didn't have the truck or a body yet. I think he was charged with unlawful confinement because, as Kavanagh said, he entered the vehicle of his own free will but wasn't allowed to leave, since he hadn't returned home and hadn't been found. For that same reason, the charge remains and the 1st degree is added (rather than 2nd degree).

But I am curious why MS doesn't have the same unlawful confinement charge (unless we just don't know about it). If he was there for the confinement, he would get the automatic 1st degree charge as well, but shouldn't he also have both charges? Do they have enough on him to have the 1st degree stick, that they don't need the confinement charge? Was the planning and deliberate maybe on his part?

JMO

Yes TB entered on his own free will not expecting the perps were going to steal his vehicle or his life. Your words of not being allowed to leave; it's JMO but I don't believe Tim was given a choice, as he was shot (MOO) before he realized something nefarious was up. I do believe DM had access to guns. His father was shot with one and during the search of DM's childhood house there was mention of a gun and IMO if he didn't have guns, it would not be hard for him to get one.

It's JMO but I believe MS wasn't charged with FC because he was the one captured via video in the second vehicle (Yukon) following. MS either walked to the end of the laneway or was let out of TB's truck at the end of TB's laneway to follow in DM's Yukon before the test drive. I do not believe MS was in TB's truck when the murder happened. Being it was DM who was driving, had control of TB's truck constitutes theft as this was allegedly the motive for the test drive.

I won't be surprised if MS's lawyer will try and down grade his charges to second degree claiming MS didn't know TB's murder was going to happen and wasn't aware TB was murdered until they reached the farmland. Again it is JMO but I do believe they went to the farmland first to get rid of TB and then onto the hangar where they cleaned the truck, put it in DM's trailer after removing the seat(s). This goes to reason why TB was not completely burned; the perps were in a hurry to leave the farmland and hide Tim's truck before Tim and his truck were reported missing by SB. I wonder if LE were able to locate the seat(s) from TB's truck? Guess we will learn this eventually.

Although I doubt it, MS may not have helped DM to get rid of evidence, clean up or transportation of DM's trailer to his mom's house. Could it be he had another friend with a truck in which he asked to haul the trailer to his mother's driveway, without their knowledge TB's truck was in the trailer? They obviously used someone's truck to haul the trailer there...

MS is being charged with first degree because he knew TB's fate and even if he didn't partake in any part of it, he did not report it to LE; IMHO it's that simple and I believe a deserving sentence.

BTW all JMO.

"Video evidence that we've now recovered shows that when Mr. Bosma's vehicle left his residence, there was a second vehicle following,"
Kavanagh said. "We do not yet know how many people were in that second vehicle. Right now we're looking at at least three, possibly more."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/more-suspects-sought-in-tim-bosma-slaying-1.1334007

Police say surveillance video from the night of the disappearance captured images of a GMC Yukon belonging to Millard following the truck some time after it left Bosma's home. Investigators said they were looking for a third suspect who may have been driving the Yukon.
But on Thursday, Det. Sgt. Matt Kavanagh told the Toronto Star there might not be a third suspect. Kavanagh told the newspaper is it possible one of the suspects jumped out of the Dodge Ram at some point to pick up the Yukon.
“That is possible right now, yes, but I’m not going to commit either way,” he said.

The possibility that a third suspect does not exist wouldn't change the police's narrative drastically. At one point they had said they didn't know how many people were in the second vehicle, suggesting they could be looking for as many as three other suspects.
They later cut that number down to one, but didn’t offer information about how they knew the car contained only one driver, or their suspicions about where that person went afterward.


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...s-muse-existence-third-suspect-214825877.html

Neighbours told CBC News they were awakened late Thursday night by the bright lights and noise of a truck backing up. It dropped off the trailer in Millard's mother's driveway and left.

On Sunday, around noon, police descended on the property. By that night, as police towed away the trailer, Hamilton police confirmed there was a truck inside the trailer they believe belongs to Tim Bosma. Now, police tell CBC News they are looking for video surveillance from homes on Tinsmith Court, the street where the trailer was found.

Neighbours told CBC News the lights of the truck were so bright, they couldn't make out a licence plate. They also noted they hadn't seen Millard's mother all week.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...pearance-staying-silent-lawyer-says-1.1330722
 
I have read previous post regarding the suggested Ford connection. I fail to see the connection other then vicinity and drugs. Sadly illegal drugs are rampant in many communities and with TO being Canada's largest city, undoubtedly it has its fair share of illicit activity including vehicle thefts. To me this is like saying if Mr. Ford was found to have a stolen vehicle in his possession, he must have also been connected to Millard's chop shop. I would be very interested if those posting this speculation would elaborate as to what other connections and/or theories lead them to their suggestion of there being ties to DM, MS and Mr. Ford. From what I recall, Mr. Ford was into or has admitted to smoking crack, not dealing in it. IF DM and MS had an interest in illegal drugs, either using or trafficking, IIRC their choice of drug seemed to be cocaine. Crack is a derivative of cocaine...but there is a difference. All JMO.

Another bit of interesting information IMO.

Millard was arrested Friday afternoon in Mississauga. Police tracked him down from a tip that came in after they released a description of his unique "ambition" wrist tattoo.

While Millard and Michalski are listed online as "pro" Baja racers, one expert in the sport said they were likely far from it. "What you gotta realize is, a movie came out a few years ago called Dust to Glory, and I refer to it as the Dust to Glory syndrome &#8230; people never interested (in Baja) in their life saw the movie and put this on their bucket list," Craig Humphries, a former pro racer, said Saturday from Kamloops, B.C. It's an intense sport, for adrenalin junkies. "Put it this way, after six years of desert racing, I sleep in a chair now," Humphries said. The Baja race started in the 1960s by a bunch of friends who decided to race down the Baja Peninsula from Tijuana to La Paz. From that it eventually turned into an annual event. There are now roughly 300 entrants every year, Humphries said. "It's a very family-oriented (community), Baja, lots of second, third generation racers &#8230; it's almost a hanging offence in the desert culture to steal stuff," he said. Local car dealers have speculated that the engine would be the most valuable part of such a truck &#8212; worth upwards of $6,500. From the beginning, police stressed they believe the truck was the target of the theft &#8212; not Bosma.

http://www.brantnews.com/news-story/4110946-tim-bosma-s-truck-found-in-kleinburg-report/
 
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